The fatal flaw of Universalism

The Darien Gap is a swampy tract of jungle located where Panama meets Columbia. There are no roads through it and trekking there is very difficult. It's dangerous too...

Saint Steven said:

I think most pastors have both of the main respected concordances, Strong's and Young's.

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Concordances are good for the purpose for which they were intended, locating where specific words occur in the Bible. They are not lexicons for determining the correct definition of Hebrew and Greek words. As I have said before Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors and omissions especially the free online version.

Lazarus Short said:

The Darien Gap is a swampy tract of jungle located where Panama meets Columbia. There are no roads through it and trekking there is very difficult. It's dangerous too...

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With mosquitoes the size of a quart jar. Leaving anyone bitten feeling a quart low. - lol

The Fatal Flaws=

GENESIS

18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed

28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed

NUMBERS

16:22 the God of the spirits of all flesh

I KINGS

8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.

PSALMS

46:10 "I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world."

65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.

86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.

138:4 O Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.

ISAIAH

11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.

52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.

61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.

66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

LAMENTATIONS

3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

(NLT)- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.

DANIEL

7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

7:27 ..the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."

MICAH

4:1-5 ..he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths."
For the LORD's teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
The LORD will mediate between peoples
and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.
Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
for there will be nothing to fear.

HABAKKUK

2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea


MATTHEW

20:8-15 That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. When those hired at five o'clock were paid, each received a full day's wage. When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day's wage. When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, 'Those people worked only one hour, and yet you've paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.'
"He answered one of them, 'Friend, I haven't been unfair! Didn't you agree to work all day for the usual wage? Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?'

LUKE

2:10 but the angel reassured them. "Don't be afraid!" he said. "I bring you good news that will bring great joy to all people.

2:14 Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"

3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'

9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them

19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."

20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

JOHN

1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."

6:37 those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

6:39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. *John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands

6:45 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw (Greek, literal, DRAG) everyone to myself."

12:47 I will not judge those who hear me but don't obey me, for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.

ACTS

3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

3:25-26 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors. For God said to Abraham, 'Through your descendants[a] all the families on earth will be blessed.'

ROMANS

8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

15:21 I have been following the plan spoken of in the Scriptures, where it says,
"Those who have never been told about him will see,
and those who have never heard of him will understand"

I CORINTHIANS

3:14,5 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

5:5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son Himself also be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

II CORINTHIANS

5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation,

to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.


GALATIANS

3:8 What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

4:13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

PHILIPPIANS

2:10-11 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

COLOSSIANS

1:20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ's blood on the cross.

I TIMOTHY

1:15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—

2:4-6 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

HEBREWS

2:9 Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2:17 so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.

8:11,12 And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their relatives,[d]
saying, 'You should know the LORD.'
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will know me already.
And I will forgive their wickedness,
and I will never again remember their sins

9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

10:10 For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

I PETER

3:18-20 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

II PETER

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. *(John 13:3)

I JOHN

2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

3:5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.

4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the payment for our sins.

4:14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

REVELATION

3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

" Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages!'


14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed."

20:14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.

21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

22:2 On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.

22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything.

22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let anyone who hears this say, "Come." Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.

The Master of the Glory does all things well. He clears the air of the human condition, the disordered mess of struggling humanity to set is right once & for all.

The band-aid of the Law has been swallowed by the Spirit of the living & breathing God.

Our Father Abba = magnificent overflow.

Romans 8, The Message (MSG) | The Bible App

"The fatal flaw" of our Father actually accomplishing what He set out to do as the Author, & completing it as the Finisher is what the Restitution of the all is all about.

Every last broken wreck of sin & despair changed from the inside out by the Saviour of all mankind.


Agnus Dei

FineLinen said:

"The fatal flaw" of our Father actually accomplishing what He set out to do as the Author, & completing it as the Finisher is what the Restitution of the all is all about.

Every last broken wreck of sin & despair changed from the inside out by the Saviour of all mankind.


Agnus Dei

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This reminds me (for some reason) that God loves a good story with a happy ending. So, why would he botch his own story by letting sin win? A forever burning hell is a lose/lose situation. (cannot be)

Charlie24 said:

Does the "forever and ever" in these 2 verses mean,

for an age
for 2 ages
for age after age...etc.?

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An age means a time period, usually very long, but it does not have to be long. It depends on circumstances. An age has a beginning, it has a middle part, and it has an end. That is the most important thing. It has an end. If it has an end, it must have also a beginning. It is not something that you can equate with “eternity,” or even the word “forever.” The word “forever” has no end, it means it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.

The ages of the Bible are not that way. They have beginnings. They have a middle portion between the beginning and the end, but they always have an end. This is why it is so important for us to realize this: so many words in the Bible are mistranslated by such words as “eternal,” as “forever,” or “ever and ever” when in actual fact the original writers did not intend that type of meaning at all.

Saint Steven said:

This reminds me (for some reason) that God loves a good story with a happy ending. So, why would he botch his own story by letting sin win? A forever burning hell is a lose/lose situation. (cannot be)

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Even in the Flood story in which all the inhabitants of the earth (except Noah's family) were destroyed, the NT finishes the story when Christ went to the realm of the dead in search of "those who were disobedient long ago... in the days of Noah" (1Pet.3:20) to make proclamation to them. The Flood was NOT the end of the story. Christ "descended to the lower, earthly regions... in order to fill the whole universe." (Eph.4:9-10) This task of filling the whole universe is not yet completed. Maranatha!

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Ephesians 4:7-10
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Charlie24 said:

So the Glory of God our Father has a beginning, a middle portion, and a end?

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It's like a sandwich. Bread on both sides and the meat in the middle. - lol

Damnationism is like an open-faced sandwich left forever under the broiler. Seems like such a waste.

Restorationism removes the sandwich from the broiler once the cheese has melted properly. (what's not to like?)

FineLinen said:

An age means a time period, usually very long, but it does not have to be long. It depends on circumstances. An age has a beginning, it has a middle part, and it has an end. That is the most important thing. It has an end. If it has an end, it must have also a beginning. It is not something that you can equate with “eternity,” or even the word “forever.” The word “forever” has no end, it means it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.

The ages of the Bible are not that way. They have beginnings. They have a middle portion between the beginning and the end, but they always have an end. This is why it is so important for us to realize this: so many words in the Bible are mistranslated by such words as “eternal,” as “forever,” or “ever and ever” when in actual fact the original writers did not intend that type of meaning at all.

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Right.
If "forever" means eternal, then what does "forever and ever" mean? (if "forever" is already eternal) Makes more sense to translate as "an age" and "age of ages".

Charlie24 said:

So the Glory of God our Father has a beginning, a middle portion, and a end?

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Charlie24 said:

All we who are saved will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to answer for what we have done in this life.

Our deeds will pass through the fire as radiant gold or it will burn as sticks, hay, and stubble.

I do my best, not always successful I'm sure, to see that I have a foundation for the things I do, that they may come forth as gold perfected in the fire.

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I wish you knew how very much God loves you. Why turn the day that you will meet him into a day of terror and shame? Seems like it should be a happy meeting. Greeted by smiles instead of frowns and scowls. "... to answer for what we have done..."

Furthermore, when we do "our" best, we miss the mark. Don't waste your time.

Charlie24 said:

We can live in a fantasy land or make sure our deeds are in Christ.

That day will not be a happy day for some of us. Whoever that may be.

The God of love is also a God of Judgement, let's not forget that!

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Reminds me of a bumper stick I saw once.

JESUS IS COMING
And boy is he angry!

Charlie24 said:

We can live in a fantasy land or make sure our deeds are in Christ.

That day will not be a happy day for some of us. Whoever that may be.

The God of love is also a God of Judgement, let's not forget that!

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Is that all that God wants from us? Someone that can mechanically follow instructions to the letter. ???

It seems to me that he wants a relationship with a living, breathing, emotional human being. (warts and all) This is what Restorationism is at its very essence. Restored relationships with God.

I think God would rather give us a warm embrace than throttle us for not having done enough.

Luke 15:20
So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

NOTE: This was before his confession of sin, which the father completely ignored.

Luke 15:21-22
“The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

Saint Steven said:

Is that all that God wants from us? Someone that can mechanically follow instructions to the letter. ???
It seems to me that he wants a relationship with a living, breathing, emotional human being. (warts and all) This is what Restorationism is at its very essence. Restored relationships with God.
I think God would rather give us a warm embrace than throttle us for not having done enough.
Luke 15:20
So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
NOTE: This was before his confession of sin, which the father completely ignored.
Luke 15:21-22
“The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

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Was this while the wayward son was still alive or after he was dead?