The fatal flaw of Universalism

Lazarus Short · Jan 17, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I like the (duh), it adds special effects.

IN Rev. 22 all those who suffer the second death have been cast into hell.

There will be two types of people on earth, those with a glorified body and those as we are now.

The scripture says, blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection.

These will be the ones who have the glorified bodies.

Sorry, Charlie - I took a look at your famous post #522, and now you repeat the mis-identification of the Lake of Fire with Hell. It ain't so - at least the Bible does not ID the LoF as Hell. Look it up if you doubt me. You are correct that those in the first resurrection will have rewards, and that the ones in the second will suffer loss, for the Bible does say that. However, I believe they will get their glorified bodies, otherwise they could not exist in the new conditions.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
The goats do go to the lake of fire upon the inauguation of the millennium. Remember that the goats are those who are ALIVE at the beginning of the millennium. The GWT deals with those who are DEAD and resurrected for judgment after the millennium. The sheep are mortals who populate the millennium but they also die during the millennium. That is why Rev 20:5 refers to the "rest of the dead did not live again" until after the 1,000 years were finished.

Teaching regarding the resurrections are all over the place. There are two resurrections. The first resurrection of the dead occurs at Jesus' second coming. I believe the "rapture" and the second coming are a single event occurring at the end of the tribulation (Rev 16:15-16). We know that the dead in Christ are risen first, followed by the saints who are alive at His coming. However, what is not commonly taught is that all the unsaved dead are also resurrected at this time - not just the dead saints in Christ. How do we know this?

Jn 5:28-29 Jesus himself stated: 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus cites a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected - both the "good" AND the "evil."

The Apostle Paul confirms the same thing when he stated: "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). Paul referred to a [singular] resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked which parallels Jesus' statement.

On the other hand, the second resurrection takes place at the GWT judgment where the dead are judged. The rest of the dead are those who lived during the millennium and are resurrected and judged according to "what they had done" (their works during the millennium). It is commonly taught that all the unsaved wicked from all ages of time are judged at the GWT. I don't think that is the case as both Jesus and Paul taught that there is one resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked at Jesus' coming.
Hope this makes sense as it can be confusing.

Okay, but it seems to me that the only references to the judgment of fire in Revelation pertain to the GWTJ. I agree that the 'dead' from the sea, death and Hades are the subject of the judgment. But keep in mind the nations have all fallen for Satan's lies again and God unleashes heavenly fire upon them in Rev 20:7 after he returns at the end of the millennium. So it seems to me that whoever is 'dead', whether physically or spiritually, remains that way at the first judgment - the resurrection to judgment (first resurrection) being a sentence to the rod of iron for 1,000 years, and since that doesn't work when the devil returns (the law being ineffective to produce true repentance), God escalates it to the fire.

Now, I could well be wrong, because Jesus seems to indicate in Matt 25:41 that the national goats get the fire at first resurrection. But in Rev the second death refers to the lake of fire treatment at the GWTJ for those who are still 'dead' after the 1,000 years.

It would help if there was a clear indication in Rev that the holy fire judgment occurred at the first resurrection.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 18, 2020

Der Alter said:
Unlike a lot of folks I have read through the Bible. I have in fact read and taught through it more than once. I'm teaching at one institution now I'm finishing Numbers for the second time.
My method is this if the words of Jesus contradict, or are contradicted by, the words of a disciple, guess which one should be reinterpreted. Nope you got it wrong. Jesus never once said that everyone would be saved righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death.

Jesus' entire mission, his raison d'etre, if you will, is to save the world from death, package it up and present it to the Father with a big bow on it, with a card saying 'Love always, your devoted son'.

Not to condemn but to save (hint: it's in his name). You're in effect saying he'll fail in his mission, that some nuts will be too tough for the Spirit to crack. Well, you may be too tough for me to crack der Alter, but when the Spirit shows up on your Damascus Rd, you won't stand a chance lol. The hound of heaven will retrieve your heart and lope back happy.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

1 Timothy 4:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

Ephesians 1:7-10 King James Version (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

FineLinen · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What Does 1 Timothy 4:10 Mean? "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

FineLinen · Jan 18, 2020

TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

Introduction

1) Method and Definitions

2) Derivation of Olam

3) Olam Limited in Time

4) Olam, Olamim

5) Olam Repeated

6) Ha Olam, Olamim and Ha Olamim

7) 'Olam' as Eternal?

8) Suggested conclusions respecting Olam, Olam Repeated, and the Plural

9) Aion, Aiones, Aionios

10) Aion in the New Testament

11) The Plural - Aiones

12) Aionios

13) Whence Eternity?

14) Epilogue

Appendix - What is Hell?

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Sorry, Charlie - I took a look at your famous post #522, and now you repeat the mis-identification of the Lake of Fire with Hell. It ain't so - at least the Bible does not ID the LoF as Hell. Look it up if you doubt me. You are correct that those in the first resurrection will have rewards, and that the ones in the second will suffer loss, for the Bible does say that. However, I believe they will get their glorified bodies, otherwise they could not exist in the new conditions.

The "lake of fire" is the second death. The Bible says nothing about a resurrection from this place.

The second death is separation from God.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
The "lake of fire" is the second death. The Bible says nothing about a resurrection from this place.

The second death is separation from God.

Nope.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. even UNDER the earth.
Where the Lake of Fire is located. And willingly, not under duress.
(see note at the bottom of this post)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Lazarus Short · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
The "lake of fire" is the second death. The Bible says nothing about a resurrection from this place.

The second death is separation from God.

Though nothing is said directly, other Scriptures imply that those in the LoF must come out. Consider First Corinthians 15:20 - 28. In verse 22 we have, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." Then, verse 26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Put it together:

"...all shall be made alive."

"...destroyed is death."

Now given that double witness, I will ask you the question that no Damnationist has yet adequately answered:

With all made alive and death destroyed, how can anyone then still be dead and/or in Hell?

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Nope.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. even UNDER the earth.
Where the Lake of Fire is located. And willingly, not under duress.
(see note at the bottom of this post)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

1Cor. 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
1Cor. 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Though nothing is said directly, other Scriptures imply that those in the LoF must come out. Consider First Corinthians 15:20 - 28. In verse 22 we have, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." Then, verse 26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Put it together:

"...all shall be made alive."

"...destroyed is death."

Now given that double witness, I will ask you the question that no Damnationist has yet adequately answered:

With all made alive and death destroyed, how can anyone then still be dead and/or in Hell?

Let's back up to verses 17-18 to see who is the "all" Paul is referring to .

This is called scripture interpreting scripture in context!

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep 'in Christ" are perished.

Paul is speaking of the importance of the resurrection. There were some who said there is no resurrection.

His point is that if there is no resurrection then Christ did not rise from the dead and your salvation is vain, you are still in your sins, you will perish.

The "all" in vs.22 is referring to those "in Christ" who have believed.

FineLinen · Jan 18, 2020

I truly love the fatal flaw of the Restitution of the all. Every broken and bruised sinner made righteous, every physical form of scoliosis healed, every spiritual form of scoliosis transformed by the Unlimited Christ!

“The times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets…”

And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21).

Peter’s statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall’s Dictionary)

This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration.

Some will no doubt reply to this by stating, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken. I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things.

You will notice that in the scripture quoted (Acts 3:21, King James Version) there is a comma after the word things. This comma indicates that the clause following : “which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began” – is what is known as a non-restrictive clause. A non-restrictive clause is one which can be omitted without changing or destroying the meaning of the principal clause or main statement. (See Mastering Effective English by Tressler-Lewis, Revised Edition, Pages 545-546.) It simply adds further information.

Now read the scripture, omitting the clause in question, and you will find the meaning is clearly stated and nothing of the sense is destroyed. If this clause were modifying the word things, it would be restrictive and no comma would be used. -George Hawtin-

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

FineLinen said:
I truly love the fatal flaw of the Restitution of the all. Every broken and bruised sinner made righteous, every physical form of scoliosis healed, every spiritual form of scoliosis transformed by the Unlimited Christ!

“The times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets…”

And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21).

Peter’s statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall’s Dictionary)

This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration.

Some will no doubt reply to this by stating, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken. I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things.

You will notice that in the scripture quoted (Acts 3:21, King James Version) there is a comma after the word things. This comma indicates that the clause following : “which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began” – is what is known as a non-restrictive clause. A non-restrictive clause is one which can be omitted without changing or destroying the meaning of the principal clause or main statement. (See Mastering Effective English by Tressler-Lewis, Revised Edition, Pages 545-546.) It simply adds further information.

Now read the scripture, omitting the clause in question, and you will find the meaning is clearly stated and nothing of the sense is destroyed. If this clause were modifying the word things, it would be restrictive and no comma would be used. -George Hawtin-

That is the way you choose to interpret scripture despite the clear scripture against that interpretation.

God forces nothing on anyone but Judgement, that will be enforced.

Man will and does choose his own way, despite the clear warnings of rejecting His Son.

Man will pay the ultimate price for his choosing against His clear warnings.

Lazarus Short · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Let's back up to verses 17-18 to see who is the "all" Paul is referring to .

This is called scripture interpreting scripture in context!

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep 'in Christ" are perished.

Paul is speaking of the importance of the resurrection. There were some who said there is no resurrection.

His point is that if there is no resurrection then Christ did not rise from the dead and your salvation is vain, you are still in your sins, you will perish.

The "all" in vs.22 is referring to those "in Christ" who have believed.

I did not see "all" in the verses you referenced. You pull the usual trick and state that this or that refers only to the Church...only to believers. However, I don't see how your quoted verses even bear on my question - which you did not answer, but sidestepped.

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
I did not see "all" in the verses you referenced. You pull the usual trick and state that this or that refers only to the Church...only to believers. However, I don't see how your quoted verses even bear on my question - which you did not answer, but sidestepped.

OK, Laz! You see what you see. You will choose to believe what you choose to believe.

I'm just showing you why the masses disagree with you.

Lazarus Short · Jan 18, 2020

I disagree with the masses, but why do you decline to answer my Question? Surely there is a fatal flaw in it that you can point out.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Let's back up to verses 17-18 to see who is the "all" Paul is referring to .

This is called scripture interpreting scripture in context!

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep 'in Christ" are perished.

The "all" is already defined in verse 22. Why look elsewhere? The "in Adam all" is the same as the "in Christ all". The word "as" means in the same way. Death was all-inclusive, life is all-inclusive. And "even so" also means in the same way.

Lazarus Short said: ↑
Though nothing is said directly, other Scriptures imply that those in the LoF must come out. Consider First Corinthians 15:20 - 28. In verse 22 we have, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." Then, verse 26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Put it together:

"...all shall be made alive."

"...destroyed is death."

Now given that double witness, I will ask you the question that no Damnationist has yet adequately answered:

With all made alive and death destroyed, how can anyone then still be dead and/or in Hell?

The fatal flaw of Universalism

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