The fatal flaw of Universalism

Oldmantook said:

Your point is well taken but it is critical to understand who the "sheep" are in Matt 25. I do not believe they are believers. I believe they are unbelievers in the nations who still alive at Jesus' return. They are not regenerate believers but because of their good works done unto the brethren, Jesus commends them and consequently allows them to live in the millennium. They are mortals with flesh and blood who repopulate the earth during the millennium. This is contrasted with the believers who are alive at Jesus' return and the saints who are already dead in Christ and are resurrected. All together, the saints rule and reign with Christ over those sheep nations which repopulate the earth during the millennium. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The goal of every Christian is not "eternal life" for a couple of reasons I can think of. First, the Bible never teaches that the saints spend eternity in heaven with God. The fact is that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and that is where the saints finally dwell. Secondly, since aionion life, etc. cannot mean eternal life but instead - age during life - just what age is being referred to? I believe that the answer is the millennial age.
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.
Rev 3:21 To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father....
Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.
1 Cor 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Matt 25:23 His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’
Lk 19:17-19 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!c Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’

The goal of every Christian is to overcome and persevere in the faith, even if it means martyrdom in order to gain aionion life in the Millennium and be given the privilege to co-reign with Christ over the sheep nations.

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Okay thanks, I can see the grounds for that line of thinking. Matt 25:32 does indeed refer to the nations as the pool from which the sheep and goats are separated/ judged:

"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

Rev 20:3a suggests that there will be nations existing at the start of the millennial reign:

and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer,

And the nexus is in Matt 25:31, and in Rev 19:11-16 and 20:4a:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. (Mt 25:31)

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. (Rev 19:11)

And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. (Rev 19:14)

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. (Rev 20:4a)

Rev 20:4b (as you quoted) refers to the true Christians, saints and martyrs who rule with Christ for that period.

But does Revelation confirm the 1,000 year 'aeonion kolasin' of the 'national goats'? The only candidates I can find are:

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. (Rev 19:15)

And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev 19:21)

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev 20:15-16)

It appears there's a gap here, as under Matt 25:31-46 prophecy they go to the fire upon inauguration of the millennium, whereas in Rev they don't go until afterwards, the GWT judgment in Rev 20:15. Looks to me that Rev teaches there is no separation of the good from the bad with the nations prior to the Millennial reign.

Or am I missing something?

Shrewd Manager said:

Thanks but I've seen enough to convince me there's a strong case that the Greeks of the day considered at least the connotation of kolasis to be in serving a corrective purpose. I would be guided in principle by the interpretation that leads to life. In the Bible death leads to life, everything does, because He is the God of the living, Jesus is the life, the author of life, and the Spirit gives life. Jesus came to save the world from death and him who holds the power of it. He takes away the sin of the world whose wages are death, he releases the prisoners, and death is swallowed up in victory. So in my book Zoe wins, and that's one for the money.

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Yes he is. You nailed it. To Him, ALL are alive. All.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

Saint Steven said:

Yes he is. You nailed it. To Him, ALL are alive. All.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

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It appears that der Alter was not one of those teachers.

Saint Steven said:

Yes he is. You nailed it. To Him, ALL are alive. All.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

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But that view of Matt 25:31-46 put forward by Oldmantook is interesting. What's your take on it Steve?

Shrewd Manager said:

It appears that der Alter was not one of those teachers.

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Here's another arrow for your quiver.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Saint Steven said:

Here's another arrow for your quiver.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

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I reckon Jesus founded the NBL. Nothing But Life.

Shrewd Manager said:

But that view of Matt 25:31-46 put forward by Oldmantook is interesting. What's your take on it Steve?

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I mostly agree. (I haven't sifted through the whole thing)
I first read about the part where those who were looking after the needs of the church were invited in based on their works, from J. Preston Eby. (The Savior of the World)

That's a mind-blowing thought.
There seems to be a lot more to the judgment than we thought there was.
As we know, both the nations and the individuals are judged. And this adds another category. Just how many categories are there?

This is a real problem for Damnationism. They divide the judgment into two camps. The saved and the lost. What do they do with all these other judgment categories?

Shrewd Manager said:

I reckon Jesus founded the NBL. Nothing But Life.

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Yes.
There is more than one kind of death and more than one kind of life. (physical/spiritual)
I believe in the immortality of the soul. If I can use that term.
As Jesus said, everyone is alive to God. AND, he is the God of the living.
That makes him the God of ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shrewd Manager said:

Choose life der Alter. For God is good. Vengeance is His, and it's not timoria.

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You don't know what you are talking about.

Shrewd Manager said:

It appears that der Alter was not one of those teachers.

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Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to say by quoting selective verses out-of-context. That is a trait of all heterodox religious groups. E.g. the Bible says there is no God Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1. No fair checking the context.

Der Alter said:

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to say by quoting selective verses out-of-context. That is a trait of all heterodox religious groups. E.g. the Bible says there is no God Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1. No fair checking the context.

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"That is a trait of all heterodox religious groups." That is a sweeping generalization if I ever saw one. In my research, I considered the context of every verse in my KJV. But, oh well, I'm just an individual non-denominational believer, not a religious group.

Shrewd Manager said:

Okay thanks, I can see the grounds for that line of thinking. Matt 25:32 does indeed refer to the nations as the pool from which the sheep and goats are separated/ judged:

"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

Rev 20:3a suggests that there will be nations existing at the start of the millennial reign:

and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer,

And the nexus is in Matt 25:31, and in Rev 19:11-16 and 20:4a:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. (Mt 25:31)

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. (Rev 19:11)

And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. (Rev 19:14)

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. (Rev 20:4a)

Rev 20:4b (as you quoted) refers to the true Christians, saints and martyrs who rule with Christ for that period.

But does Revelation confirm the 1,000 year 'aeonion kolasin' of the 'national goats'? The only candidates I can find are:

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. (Rev 19:15)

And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev 19:21)

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev 20:15-16)

It appears there's a gap here, as under Matt 25:31-46 prophecy they go to the fire upon inauguration of the millennium, whereas in Rev they don't go until afterwards, the GWT judgment in Rev 20:15. Looks to me that Rev teaches there is no separation of the good from the bad with the nations prior to the Millennial reign.

Or am I missing something?

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The goats do go to the lake of fire upon the inauguation of the millennium. Remember that the goats are those who are ALIVE at the beginning of the millennium. The GWT deals with those who are DEAD and resurrected for judgment after the millennium. The sheep are mortals who populate the millennium but they also die during the millennium. That is why Rev 20:5 refers to the "rest of the dead did not live again" until after the 1,000 years were finished.

Teaching regarding the resurrections are all over the place. There are two resurrections. The first resurrection of the dead occurs at Jesus' second coming. I believe the "rapture" and the second coming are a single event occurring at the end of the tribulation (Rev 16:15-16). We know that the dead in Christ are risen first, followed by the saints who are alive at His coming. However, what is not commonly taught is that all the unsaved dead are also resurrected at this time - not just the dead saints in Christ. How do we know this?

Jn 5:28-29 Jesus himself stated: 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus cites a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected - both the "good" AND the "evil."

The Apostle Paul confirms the same thing when he stated: "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). Paul referred to a [singular] resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked which parallels Jesus' statement.

On the other hand, the second resurrection takes place at the GWT judgment where the dead are judged. The rest of the dead are those who lived during the millennium and are resurrected and judged according to "what they had done" (their works during the millennium). It is commonly taught that all the unsaved wicked from all ages of time are judged at the GWT. I don't think that is the case as both Jesus and Paul taught that there is one resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked at Jesus' coming.
Hope this makes sense as it can be confusing.

Oldmantook said:

...
Did you not read my previous post to you where I detailed exactly that. I highly suggest you do so and become enlightened.

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Sorry you fail. Following is my post again. Please show me in Rev., not a verse from another book, where dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, murderers, idolater,vs. 15, unjust and filthy vs. 11 will be saved.
If everyone is going to be saved John would have known and John says absolutely nothing about it.
.....Wrong as usual, I denied nothing, I asked for evidence. You did not show that the Jews always understood “aionios” as referring to the millennium kingdom especially when I have proved from 26 verses, 9 of which Jesus, Himself, was speaking, that “aionios” was shown to mean eternal.
I too prefer Jesus’ definition. Jesus very likely knew about the expected millennium kingdom, but He defined “aionios” as eternal in 9 verses, which you continue to ignore; John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51
After no more death, vs. 4, all things new vs. 5, 8 groups of people thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death.
Only those who do His commandments have the right to the tree of life which excludes the unjust and filthy, vs. 11 and dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idolaters.
Please show me in Rev. where dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, murderers, idolater,vs. 15, unjust and filthy vs. 11 will be saved.
Note I said Rev not a quote from some other book.

Charlie24 said:

And after the 1000 years?

There is the Great White Throne of Judgement. Rev. 20:11

Rev. 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the end, aionion is not mentioned here. There is no more mention of those in hell.

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Refer to my post #533.

Der Alter said:

Sorry you fail. Following is my post again. Please show me in Rev., not a verse from another book, where dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, murderers, idolater,vs. 15, unjust and filthy vs. 11 will be saved.
If everyone is going to be saved John would have known and John says absolutely nothing about it.
.....Wrong as usual, I denied nothing, I asked for evidence. You did not show that the Jews always understood “aionios” as referring to the millennium kingdom especially when I have proved from 26 verses, 9 of which Jesus, Himself, was speaking, that “aionios” was shown to mean eternal.
I too prefer Jesus’ definition. Jesus very likely knew about the expected millennium kingdom, but He defined “aionios” as eternal in 9 verses, which you continue to ignore; John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:7-8
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
This spoken from the throne, note a condition, the converse is the one who does not overcome will NOT inherit all things. Please read the rest of Rev 21-22 and show me where everyone will be reconciled no matter what.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

After no more death, vs. 4, all things new vs. 5, 8 groups of people thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death.

Revelation 21:10
(10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
This cannot be because according to UR everybody will have been saved by this time.
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:14
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

Only those who do His commandments have the right to the tree of life which excludes the unjust and filthy, vs. 11 and dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idolaters.

Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18
(18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:​

Please show me in Rev. where dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, murderers, idolater,vs. 15, unjust and filthy vs. 11 will be saved.
Note I said Rev not a quote from some other book.

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You ask where does it say that those in the LOF will be saved. Either you don't read or you don't remember Der Alter. Not good traits to possess in a discussion. I don't like repeating my answers to you so just refer to my post #482 in about the middle of it where I discuss Rev 22. I'm fairly certain you are able to accomplish that much.

Charlie24 said:

Post#533 has nothing to do with my point in post#522.

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So enlighten me as to what your point is that I might venture an answer.

Oldmantook said:

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<OM>
v.7 Of course the converse is true but the verse does not preclude the fact that ALL shall eventually become victorious in keeping with Col 1:20 which is the whole point of Universalism isn't it?
v.8 Of course those people are thrown into the LOF. What do you suppose they are doing there? Twiddling their thumbs in misery? That could be. However a better indicator is found in Rev 22:
14Blessed are those washing their robes,a that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood.
The New Jerusalem has already come down to earth per Rev 21 which you cited and God is among His people which you already noted in v.3. In Rev 22 John further describes the city including the lake of fire outside. Note in v.14 note that πλύνοντες is a present tense participle better translated as "washing." Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, WHO IS WASHING THEIR ROBES? Aren't the saints in the city already supposed to have their robes washed and clean?? Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE and SHALL ENTER INTO THE CITY BY THE GATES?? The saints are already in the city so who else is allowed to enter? The only possible answer is THOSE OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire v.15.....<OM>

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Big Fail! You seem to have cherry picked a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions. In Rev 7:14 the verb is not πλύνοντες/plunontes which means "washers" not 'washing."
The verb is επλυναν/eplunan which is an aorist, active, indicative. The aorist is usually translated as a simple past tense. As in most legitimate translations. To be translated "washing" the verb would be present, active, participle i.e πλύνειν/plunein.
I checked both the textus receptus and Wescott Hort Greek texts. So there are no unrighteous people in the lake of fire "washing their robes." You will need to find another proof text.
ETA: I suggest you refrain from getting further proof texts from the source you obtained this one.