The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

Guojing said:

So could you accept that your view may not be the correct one?

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That wasn't the question.
When a little child was sitting on Jesus lap, AFTER the permanent disciples TRIED TO STOP THEM....
did those children have a correct view of Jesus? Did the disciples ?

Dave L said:

Where's the gap mentioned in scripture?

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I gooooogled that question.
>>>
400 Years, The gap between Malachi and Jesus | Bibleview
400 Years, The gap between Malachi and Jesus | Bibleview
The 400-year time gap between Malachi the last book of the Old Testament and New Testament with Matthew the first of the gospels. This period was from about 420BC to about 7BC. God was fulfilling prophecy and counting down to the time for Jesus to arrive on this earth. This 400-year gap God hardly spoke to his people.

Al Touthentop said:

However, the scriptures are written so we can understand them as Paul wrote. It is the untaught and evil who twist them for their own purposes, Peter says.

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THE FATHER IN HEAVEN HIDES SALVATION from the EDUCATED ONES.

And Reveals Salvation , AND EVERYTHING related to salvation in this life and the next
TO LITTLE CHILDREN.

That's what Jesus Says.

Josheb said:

Did you understand what Dale posted regarding the "only" in the op?

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Yes. He was wrong as I have shown from Webster's dictionary. But thanks for reminding us.

Dale said:

the only reason for putting something in parenthesis is if it is of doubtful importance, or if it is off the subject.

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His student said:

Definition of parenthesis
"An amplifying or explanatory word, phrase, or sentence inserted in a passage from which it is usually set off by punctuation."

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By the way - he has shown us in his last posts to me, concerning my charge, that my opinion as to why he phrased it that particular way is absolutely correct.

Dave L said:

Where's the gap mentioned in scripture?

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The text itself mentions things happening in between a gap of time. Refresh the page, and see my commentary again and re-read it very slowly and carefully. Verse 26 is saying AFTER the 7 + 62 weeks (69 weeks), the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. His dying on the cross for us). The people of the prince are unbelievers because unbelievers destroyed the Jewish city. Romans had destroyed the Jewish city. Romans are unbelievers. They are the people of the prince who destroyed the city. This again takes place AFTER 69 weeks. Verse 27 is dealing with the Prince of the Power of the air because it is the same prince mentioned from verse 26 (i.e. the prince of the people who destroy the Jewish city), AND in this final week (70th week): This prince (i.e. the devil who works in unbelievers) will make the overspreading of abominations desolate, even until the consummation (i.e. Consummation = End).

What is the "abominations desolate"?

Is this referring to the Messiah? NO!!!


• Mark 13:14-20

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Jesus speaks negatively of the "abomination of desolation" and says that it is standing where it ought not to be. This is the image of the beast in the Jewish temple in the upcoming future.

• Revelation 13:14-15

"They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

I never heard about this happening already in history.

Also, it says there will be affliction such as not from the beginning of the creation nor shall ever be again. Meaning, this event is soooo bad that it will be the worst affliction EVER in human history!!! You would think that if this was event was so bad, then why hasn't anyone in history remember it?

The antichrist is going to kill 1/4th of the planet by the enforcement of the mark of the beast. This is the breaking of the 4th seal. The 5th seal is the saints crying out for justice in Heaven (in the fact that they were just killed). The 6th seal is God's response in answering their cry for justice and He brings in His wrath upon the Earth. Demons coming up, darkness, etc. I am pretty sure none of the stuff in Revelation like this has happened yet.

Bible Highlighter said:

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That gap doesn't exist in the text. God said that the time appointed was 70 weeks, not 69 weeks plus some gap ending in an arbitrary final week. The gap is an invention of man. You can't find either the word "gap" or an implication of it in the text.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]"

That's 69 weeks until the messiah arrives. He arrived in the 69th week. In the middle of the next week, 3 1/2 years, he made a new covenant, just as was prophesied.

"And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" - which includes the 7 weeks previously mentioned, thus 69 weeks in total so far. This "after" means that the cut off occurs after the 69 weeks and sometime in the 70th week.

"A mystery, not revealed to Daniel." But revealed to some modern day people eh? When did Gabriel reveal this to them?

If this prophecy wasn't fulfilled just as the angel told Gabriel, then we can't trust God to deliver his word. Every other time-based prophecy he's delivered to his people, like the 400 years between Abraham and the delivery of the people from bondage, the 120 years between the prophecy of the flood and its occurrence and in other places, have to be called into question. But that isn't what happened. In every case that God gave a time-limit for a prophecy, it came to pass in the time specified.

Al Touthentop said:

That gap doesn't exist in the text. God said that the time appointed was 70 weeks, not 69 weeks plus some gap ending in an arbitrary final week. The gap is an invention of man. You can't find either the word "gap" or an implication of it in the text.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]"

That's 69 weeks until the messiah arrives. He arrived in the 69th week. In the middle of the next week, 3 1/2 years, he made a new covenant, just as was prophesied.

"And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" - which includes the 7 weeks previously mentioned, thus 69 weeks in total so far. This "after" means that the cut off occurs after the 69 weeks and sometime in the 70th week.

"A mystery, not revealed to Daniel." But revealed to some modern day people eh? When did Gabriel reveal this to them?

If this prophecy wasn't fulfilled just as the angel told Gabriel, then we can't trust God to deliver his word. Every other time-based prophecy he's delivered to his people, like the 400 years between Abraham and the delivery of the people from bondage, the 120 years between the prophecy of the flood and its occurrence and in other places, have to be called into question. But that isn't what happened. In every case that God gave a time-limit for a prophecy, it came to pass in the time specified.

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Please carefully re-read what I wrote. What I said explains things in how they are. Also, if you were to go back to Daniel 9, nowhere does it say that Jesus died in the 69th week. It says in verse 26 that the Messiah is cut off AFTER the 62 weeks (i.e. 7 + 62 = 69). AFTER does not mean "DURING."

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus speaks negatively of the "abomination of desolation" and says that it is standing where it ought not to be. This is the image of the beast in the Jewish temple in the upcoming future.

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He was warning his disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem. That prophecy came to pass exactly as he said it would and the Christians in Jerusalem fled when they saw the signs he warned them to look for.

It was *their* upcoming future, not ours. His instructions were for them to flee the city, which they did, and that saved them from the horrors and the great tribulation suffered by the Jews who stayed behind. Josephus' eyewitness account of that destruction matches exactly what Jesus said about it 40 years before it happened.

To place it as some point still in the future would make no sense to anyone on this continent. The instructions were for the people to exit Jerusalem. If this prophecy is still to take place, then apparently there are some disciples of Jesus from that time still walking around Jerusalem because he tells them, some of you standing here will see these things, "the Son of Man coming in power" - which did not refer to his second coming but his wrath delivered by the hand of 'his people' - the people he used to deliver that wrath - the Romans.

If we're still waiting for that to happen, then we can't trust any time-based statements in the bible. "This generation" - a simple term referring to the current generation - can mean anything. But it doesn't mean just anything, it means "the current generation."

Treating it as a future event means that we cannot trust Jesus as a prophet.

Bible Highlighter said:

Please carefully re-read what I wrote. What I said explains things in how they are. Also, if you were to go back to Daniel 9, nowhere does it say that Jesus died in the 69th week. It says in verse 26 that the Messiah is cut off AFTER the 62 weeks (i.e. 7 + 62 = 69). AFTER does not mean "DURING."

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Exactly what I said, but I may have worded it poorly.

After the 69th week, in a prophecy stated to last 70 weeks, puts the cutting off in the 70th week.

Guojing said:

This is a very popular view but unfortunately not born by Scripture. Animal sacrifices continued on even throughout the book of Acts.

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*Sigh* I am aware that animal sacrifices continued by the Jews, but GOD no longer accepted them anymore because Jesus is now our Passover Lamb. I mean, why on Earth do you think the temple veil was torn? For nothing!? Think.

You said:

The resurrected Christ, in the most popular version of the Great Commission, told the 12 to preach to others that "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you". (Matthew 28:20)

Even as late as Acts 21, those who believe were all zealous for the Law. (v20)

Someone forgot to tell them?

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The early Jewish believers were not without flaws or problems in understand God's plan or will.
Actually, GOD stopped Paul from going through with the Jewish Purification rite. I mean, do you think the animal sacrifices should be done again if the Jewish temple is rebuilt?

Al Touthentop said:

However, the scriptures are written so we can understand them as Paul wrote. It is the untaught and evil who twist them for their own purposes, Peter says.............The reason I believe what I do, is because I read the scriptures and accept them as the truth.........I'm convinced because the author of those prophecies came and told us what they meant...........

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Exactly. Thanks. I totally agree with you.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." Revelation 1:1-3

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:1-10

Clear as a bell.

This why God calls what is written in the book the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ not the "obscuration".

Al Touthentop said:

Exactly what I said, but I may have worded it poorly.

After the 69th week, in a prophecy stated to last 70 weeks, puts the cutting off in the 70th week.

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Okay. Let's take this one step at a time. Verse 26 talks about the prince of the people who will destroy the city. Do you think these are the Romans destroying the Jewish temple or do you think this is referring to God's people destroying some kind of city here upon the Earth?

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:26).

His student said:

Exactly. I totally agree with you.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." Revelation 1:1-3

This why the book is called the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ not the "obscuration".

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This translation you're using is a bit off in the first verses. ἐσήμανεν - in verse three means "signified", not "communicated."

That means that the revelation he was given is figurative, not literal. It is relayed in prophetic language which points to the meaning, just like the prophecies of the Old Testament. And a sign never points to itself.

For instance, in the prophecy about the coming of John the Baptist (Elijah) it says he will bring the valleys high and the mountains low. When did John the Baptist make mountains and valleys level, literally? He didn't. He brought down the Pharisees and lifted up the sinners. The prophecy was talking about people, not landscapes.

The same idea applies when we read Revelation. Besides which, we have this troubling phrase which dispensationalists ignore:

the things which must shortly take place

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The Greek word used there ταχυ - means just that. A short period of time. Not an indefinite period which would have utterly no benefit to the audience addressed by this message (the seven churches in Asia).

God is not an author of confusion. That revelation was delivered to those seven churches as a warning which was important for them to hear. That doesn't make the book irrelevant to us, but not in the same way. We are not in Asia during the Roman occupation, and the things that they were warned about were about to happen to them. Not all of it is prophecy either as its author explains.

Guojing said:

You did not "read the scriptures and accept them as the truth". You read the scriptures and interpreted them as saying what you think is the truth.

That is an important difference.

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It's a conjecture on your part, not based on any knowledge of me or how I have arrived at my beliefs.

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay. Let's take this one step at a time. Verse 26 talks about the prince of the people who will destroy the city. Do you think these are the Romans destroying the Jewish temple or do you think this is referring to God's people destroying some kind of city here upon the Earth?

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:26).

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Obviously the Romans, the people God used to bring his wrath upon those who rejected his offer of a spiritual kingdom. Any other interpretation would mean that God's prophecies do not occur within the time limits he specified. That statement, "and the people of the prince THAT shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary etc" is not saying that the event of the destruction will happen in the 70th week it is describing the nature of what will come after. The people and the end shall be with a flood. A deluge. That's what happened afterwards.

“BLESSED is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.” Revelation 1:3

There are a total of 66 books in our Bible, but there is only one Book that promises at the very beginning of the book a special blessing for those who will study it and apply it’s teaching. – and that Book is the Book of Revelation.

Say whatever else you want to say about dispensationalists. and their interpretation. But at least they are trying to “get some of that” blessing.

“if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:19

On the other hand - there are many who seem to be trying pretty hard to get some of that.

Just sayin.

Guojing said:

The entire Acts 10 account, Peter was horrified to eat anything unclean and to be associated with the Gentiles.

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I suspect you are being disengenuous. Peter was convinced by the experience that Gentiles could also be a part of the spiritual kingdom of Christ. Paul later will accuse him of "living as a Gentile" except in the presence of Jews.

Gal. 2:13
"If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Peter was not living like a Jew. He was not following the old law. He knew full well that the old law was dead. His hypocrisy was something that had bothered him from his days as a disciple. He was concerned about what people thought of him, the same motivation which led him to deny Christ. Thus when he was around Jews, he acted in ways that were acceptable to them. Nowhere does it say he offered sacrifices nor is it recorded anywhere that there was a double standard for Christians. Any double standard was rebuked as it was in this situation.

[/quote]
The Acts 15 council only excused gentile believers from the Law of Moses, the Jewish believers were still expected to follow it, and it was confirmed by James and the elders in Acts 21.[/QUOTE]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jewish Christians were expected to continue in the Old Law. Not only would God not set up a common system whereby a person of one nation had to follow different laws than someone of another nation, there are several epistles which explicitly state that the old law is dead and returning to it is a repudiation of Christ's sacrifice.

His student said:

There are a total of 66 books in our Bible, but there is only one Book that promises at the very beginning of the book a special blessing for those who will study it and apply it’s teaching. – and that Book is the Book of Revelation.

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Well, I think that the reason for this is obvious. The events were said to be shortly taking place. A person who ignored the words would suffer the problems the book predicted.

Al Touthentop said:

Obviously the Romans, the people God used to bring his wrath upon those who rejected his offer of a spiritual kingdom. Any other interpretation would mean that God's prophecies do not occur within the time limits he specified. That statement, "and the people of the prince THAT shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary etc" is not saying that the event of the destruction will happen in the 70th week it is describing the nature of what will come after. The people and the end shall be with a flood. A deluge. That's what happened afterwards.

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I am not saying that the 70AD temple destruction happens in the 70th week. I believe it happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week (i.e. in the Gap). Even Christ's death (Which is before the 70AD temple destruction) happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week (i.e. in the Prophetic Gap). So you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the temple in 70AD? Yes? I just want to make sure what you believe here. When does this 70AD temple destruction take place in the 70 weeks?