The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

[jerry kelso]

He said in no uncertain terms that he was not.



Not when he started speaking to them. At least you do acknowledge that Jesus made a covenant with his people in the middle of the 70th week just as was prophesied. We seem to be getting somewhere.



We are priests and kings because God said so. He didn't say we were Christ. John said he "has made us kings and priests." Can't really get plainer than that.



The problem is that he said that God made us kings and priests already in verse six of chapter one.



He tells us he's being symbolic. In some places Jesus explains the symbolism explicitly. Stars = bishops of the church, lampstands = churches. It's a clue as to how we're to read the book. Why do you insist on ignoring that instruction?



If it's a theory, it's a theory that the Holy Spirit caused Paul to write down. Romans 9 through 11 confirm this.



Israel is the church.



We are the saints. The church is indeed the bride of Christ.

altouthentop,

1. Give me an emphatic statement of scripture that says Jesus isn’t coming to establish a physical earthly kingdom.

2. I didn’t say Jesus made a covenant with the the Jewish in the middle of the New Covenant.
The church is Jews and Gentiles in one body to make one new man Ephesians 2:14-15.
This has nothing to do with the New Covenant being made with the whole Jewish nation in the end times. Nor does it have to do with the middle of Daniel’s 70th week.

3. I was just stating reasons why we were a royal priesthood and why we were not which means we are not Christ the mediator.
You are misleading by bypassing the time factor of when we will be rulers in the coming kingdom.
You obviously don’t understand context or you just want to argue your point without complete scriptural basis.
You are not being fair in exegesis and you are not being truthful.

4. I already stated symbolism in revelation has literal truth. Quit telling me I’m ignoring instruction when I have proved by scripture I am not.

5. Romans 2:17-29 is written directly to the Jews who were blaspheming God in front of the gentiles v24.
V25-27 is about the proselytes under the Jews for they were under the law.
God was stating the same point in Ezekiel 18 that God is no respect of persons and if the Jews of the circumcision broke the law and would not repent they wouldn’t be forgiven and their circumcision would become uncircumcised.
But if the uncircumcised gentiles would have kept the righteousness of the law they would be accounted as being circumcised.
Vs. 28-29 is to the sinning Jew is not a spiritual Jew just fleshly and their circumcision and being God’s chosen people that had the advantage of the covenants didn’t account for them pertains to the righteousness of the law and surely wouldn’t be any food for circumcision of the heart by the New Covenant.
So a gentile can be called a spiritual Jew because of circumcision of the heart under the New covenant but that was not the context to promote replacement theology which you believe in.
Israel as a nation with specific covenants gifts and callings is not the church. I’ve already given you the scriptures multiple of times and you still cannot rebut it.

6. Old Testament saints, church age saints and tribulation saints will be in the bride of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10; 21:2,9,10.

7. It is one thing to have a different point of view but another to be unfair in giving part truth and leave out the whole context of reconciliation of scriptures together in harmony.
It is not right to twist what I say whether by deception or outward statements.
If you are going to be unfair across the board you don’t really need to be posting.
What you accuse me of is what you are doing to me.
I am curious why you want to keep doing being unfair? Jerry Kelso

 

[Al Touthentop]

altouthentop,

1. Give me an emphatic statement of scripture that says Jesus isn’t coming to establish a physical earthly kingdom.

"My kingdom is not of this world"

He uses a possessive singular pronoun here. There is only one kingdom and it is his. There isn't another.

. I didn’t say Jesus made a covenant with the the Jewish in the middle of the New Covenant.
The church is Jews and Gentiles in one body to make one new man Ephesians 2:14-15.

The Church is the bride of Christ, the body of Saints, the church of the firstborn, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, the church of God, the church of Christ.

This has nothing to do with the New Covenant being made with the whole Jewish nation in the end times. Nor does it have to do with the middle of Daniel’s 70th week.

Why don't you start putting up with this bizarre doctrine of yours. Find me one New Testament writer or teacher who taught that Jesus was going to come back and make yet another covenant with the Jews. New Testament writer. Stay out of Isaiah and Hosea, books you obviously don't understand. Give me a statement by Paul, Peter, Jude, John or James in which they teach that we're still waiting for an earthly kingdom or we are still waiting for OT prophecy to be fulfilled. The only reason the church has nothing to do with the New covenant being made with the whole Jewish nation is because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches.

 

[Guojing]

Your sarcasm meter is broken. Get it fixed.

You are convinced now that your point "Israel IS serving the Lord and David their king." is absurd?

 

[Guojing]

7. It is one thing to have a different point of view but another to be unfair in giving part truth and leave out the whole context of reconciliation of scriptures together in harmony.
It is not right to twist what I say whether by deception or outward statements.
If you are going to be unfair across the board you don’t really need to be posting.
What you accuse me of is what you are doing to me.
I am curious why you want to keep doing being unfair? Jerry Kelso

When you are in forums long enough, you will realize that there are always such people around.

You can show them all the scripture patiently and they will keep insisting that their own flimsy interpretations are the only correct ones to follow.

 

[jerry kelso]

When you are in forums long enough, you will realize that there are always such people around.

You can show them all the scripture patiently and they will keep insisting that their own flimsy interpretations are the only correct ones to follow.

guojing,

1. I know and agree. I have been here for about 6 years and he is not the first one who wants to be unfair. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

"My kingdom is not of this world"

He uses a possessive singular pronoun here. There is only one kingdom and it is his. There isn't another.




The Church is the bride of Christ, the body of Saints, the church of the firstborn, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, the church of God, the church of Christ.



Why don't you start putting up with this bizarre doctrine of yours. Find me one New Testament writer or teacher who taught that Jesus was going to come back and make yet another covenant with the Jews. New Testament writer. Stay out of Isaiah and Hosea, books you obviously don't understand. Give me a statement by Paul, Peter, Jude, John or James in which they teach that we're still waiting for an earthly kingdom or we are still waiting for OT prophecy to be fulfilled. The only reason the church has nothing to do with the New covenant being made with the whole Jewish nation is because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches.

alentouthentop,

1. You are wrong again. Revelation 11:15; The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever. Are you going to say this is symbolic and not literal?
Daniel 7-13 both the son of man and the Ancient of days are coming out of the clouds of Heaven to Earth and are given dominion and and glory and a Kingdom v14. Are you going say this is a kingdom in Heaven and not on earth?

2. What scripture do you have to say the KoH and the church is the bride of Christ right now in this age and that they are the only ones in the Holy City?

3. Jesus is coming back to the clouds and bring with him the dead in Christ and those on earth that are alive will be raised with them and go back to heaven.
This is the pre-Tribute rapture.
Acts 1:9-10; Jesus ascended to Heaven; v10 were the angels who told the disciples as he went to Heaven he is coming back to earth the same way which is the same as in Zechariah 14 when he touches down on the Mount of Olives. Are you going to deny this fact of scripture?

4. Jesus will make the New Covenant with the whole nation and take away their sins. Calvary was for all people John 3:16 and the church age of Jews and Gentiles started at Calvary Ephesians 2:14-15. The church age is separate from the millennial kingdom when Israel will be at the head of the nation and will be a nation born in one day in the future. Are you going to deny these scriptures and why?

2 Samuel 13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12 has not happened yet but will In the future. Are you going to deny this scripture context?
I under Isaiah and Hosea and they don’t agree with you.
The KoH was not preached by the apostles for Jesus said it was not for them to know the time and seasons that the Father had put in his own power. Paul wasn’t to preach the KoH message because it was for the Jewish earthly calling.
He did show we would be in the K to reign 2 Timothy 2:12 and John mentioned in Revelation 5:9. Are you going to deny these facts of scripture? Jerry kelso

 

[Dale]

Hi William L , and is Eph 3:2 and Eph 1:10 , 1 Cor 9:17 , Col 1:25 , 1 Tim 1:4 and Luke 16: 2 ,3 ,and 4 are all man made up ??

dan p

Perhaps you could quote those verses and summarize what you think they are saying.

Those verses aren't made up but Dispensationalists haven't shown that they understand the Bible.

 

[Dale]

The 12 preached that Jesus died and rose again as a sign that he was truly the Son of God.

Peter, for example, never preached in Acts that Jesus died for your sins and rose again for your justification, which was what 1 Cor 15:1-4. Peter used the death of Jesus as murder indictment for the Jews.

Read Acts 2-4 carefully and you will not find 1 Cor 15:1-4 in Peter's preaching.

Guojing: "Peter, for example, never preached in Acts that Jesus died for your sins and rose again for your justification, which was what 1 Cor 15:1-4. Peter used the death of Jesus as murder indictment for the Jews."

Take Acts Chapter 2 for example. I don't know how you could get such a straightforward chapter so confused. The following quotes are from the RSV.

In Acts 2:21, Peter, quoting the prophet Joel says:

<< And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. >>

That's pretty clear.

In Acts 2:26-28, Peter quotes David in the Psalms.

26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will dwell in hope.
27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor let thy Holy One see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’

Peter emphasizes Christ's victory over death. The implication is that Jesus can bring others with Him, breaking the chains of death and Hades, followed by victorious entry into Heaven.

In Acts 2: 30-33, Peter continues to speak of David's prophecy that Christ would overcome death, bodily corruption, and the grave, and tells us that Jesus is "exalted at the right hand of God."

30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear.

Again, the implication is that Jesus was rescued from death and raised to Heaven by Divine power. In His new position in the court of Heaven, at the right hand of God, Jesus is in a position to pardon His followers from death in the same way.

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Acts 2:36 RSV

Peter is still emphasizing the exalted position of Jesus Christ following he Resurrection and Ascension. God sent the Messiah, the Christ, to rescue the Jews and certainly as Lord, Jesus has the power to gather His followers.

There is no "murder indictment" of the Jews. Peter is not condemning the Jews but offering them the salvation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Guojing: "Peter, for example, never preached in Acts that Jesus died for your sins and rose again for your justification, which was what 1 Cor 15:1-4. Peter used the death of Jesus as murder indictment for the Jews."

Take Acts Chapter 2 for example. I don't know how you could get such a straightforward chapter so confused. The following quotes are from the RSV.

In Acts 2:21, Peter, quoting the prophet Joel says:

<< And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. >>

That's pretty clear.

In Acts 2:26-28, Peter quotes David in the Psalms.

26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will dwell in hope.
27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor let thy Holy One see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’

Peter emphasizes Christ's victory over death. The implication is that Jesus can bring others with Him, breaking the chains of death and Hades, followed by victorious entry into Heaven.

In Acts 2: 30-33, Peter continues to speak of David's prophecy that Christ would overcome death, bodily corruption, and the grave, and tells us that Jesus is "exalted at the right hand of God."

30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear.

Again, the implication is that Jesus was rescued from death and raised to Heaven by Divine power. In His new position in the court of Heaven, at the right hand of God, Jesus is in a position to pardon His followers from death in the same way.

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Acts 2:36 RSV

Peter is still emphasizing the exalted position of Jesus Christ following he Resurrection and Ascension. God sent the Messiah, the Christ, to rescue the Jews and certainly as Lord, Jesus has the power to gather His followers.

There is no "murder indictment" of the Jews. Peter is not condemning the Jews but offering them the salvation of Jesus Christ.

You may have missed my previous post but here is the scripture regarding "murder indictment". Its up to you whether you want to accept or ignore them

1. Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye crucified ...."
2. Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...."
3. Then in Acts 5:30 he says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."
4. Finally Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers ...."

 

[Biblewriter]

Find me one New Testament writer or teacher who taught that Jesus was going to come back and make yet another covenant with the Jews. New Testament writer. Stay out of Isaiah and Hosea, books you obviously don't understand. Give me a statement by Paul, Peter, Jude, John or James in which they teach that we're still waiting for an earthly kingdom or we are still waiting for OT prophecy to be fulfilled. The only reason the church has nothing to do with the New covenant being made with the whole Jewish nation is because you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches.

I Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." So your desire to eliminate certain parts of the Bible from consideration is serious bad doctrine.

 

[Dale]

You may have missed my previous post but here is the scripture regarding "murder indictment". Its up to you whether you want to accept or ignore them

1. Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye crucified ...."
2. Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...."
3. Then in Acts 5:30 he says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."
4. Finally Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers ...."

Peter's statements "whom ye crucified," etc., are not a "murder indictment." Peter isn't calling for the extermination of the Jewish nation, he is calling them to repentance. Peter isn't saying that Jews, or even the Jewish leaders, should be stoned, or hanged, or any such thing. In the same chapter, he accepts thousands of people as converts.

 

[Guojing]

Peter's statements "whom ye crucified," etc., are not a "murder indictment." Peter isn't calling for the extermination of the Jewish nation, he is calling them to repentance. Peter isn't saying that Jews, or even the Jewish leaders, should be stoned, or hanged, or any such thing. In the same chapter, he accepts thousands of people as converts.

First I did not say that Peter is calling for the extermination of the nation.

Next, you are a non Jew and hence its understandable that you find it difficult to view early Acts from the Jewish perspective.

You must recall the horrific words that the Jews said to Pilate during Jesus's trial.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

When Jesus was on the cross, he asked his father to forgive them for this act, because they know not what they do, the Father agreed to Jesus request.

So when Peter urged his Jewish brothers at Pentecost to repent (Acts 2:38), they are to repent from their horrific act of murdering the Son of God, and accept him once again as the Son of God and their King.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." So your desire to eliminate certain parts of the Bible from consideration is serious bad doctrine.

I'm not trying to eliminate them. The New Testament writers gave us their interpretation of Old Testament prophecies. That interpretation was by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. As Peter said, no prophecy is of private interpretation.

If not one of them preached that we were waiting for an earthly kingdom where Jesus would reign on earth, then your interpretation has to be in error. If yours is the correct view, then you can quote the apostles and writers of the New Testament giving us that expectation.

I know they didn't do this and that you will fail in trying, unless I am in error. So this isn't about cutting out the old testament, it is about demonstrating that your interpretation of it has no basis. It doesn't match what anyone in the New Testament spoke or wrote. If it did, you wouldn't be dodging the task.

 

[jerry kelso]

I'm not trying to eliminate them. The New Testament writers gave us their interpretation of Old Testament prophecies. That interpretation was by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. As Peter said, no prophecy is of private interpretation.

If not one of them preached that we were waiting for an earthly kingdom where Jesus would reign on earth, then your interpretation has to be in error. If yours is the correct view, then you can quote the apostles and writers of the New Testament giving us that expectation.

I know they didn't do this and that you will fail in trying, unless I am in error. So this isn't about cutting out the old testament, it is about demonstrating that your interpretation of it has no basis. It doesn't match what anyone in the New Testament spoke or wrote. If it did, you wouldn't be dodging the task.

altouthentop,

Why are you still trying to debunk about the coming kingdom when I already showed you scripture proving that theory is wrong in post 566.
Did you miss it? I don’t think you did and if you didn’t you more than dodged the real truth you completely ran away from it.
Are you going to keep denying scripture? Jerry Kelso

 

[Al Touthentop]

altouthentop,

Why are you still trying to debunk about the coming kingdom when I already showed you scripture proving that theory is wrong in post 566.
Did you miss it? I don’t think you did and if you didn’t you more than dodged the real truth you completely ran away from it.
Are you going to keep denying scripture? Jerry Kelso

I am not denying the coming kingdom, I accept what Jesus taught about the kingdom. He and his apostles said we're a part of it if we're Christians.

John said, 2000 years ago, that he was in the kingdom along with the 7 churches of Asia to whom he was writing. It is you who rejects the coming kingdom because you deny it ever came.

 

[David Kent]

3. Jesus is coming back to the clouds and bring with him the dead in Christ and those on earth that are alive will be raised with them and go back to heaven.
This is the pre-Tribute rapture.

Not scriptural.

 

[jerry kelso]

Not scriptural.

davidkent,

1. Ok, it says “and so shall ever be with the Lord” and not Heaven.
So where do you think the Lord and his saints will go to after he raptures the dead and living saints according to the scriptures because it doesn’t say to the earth either and I am sure we will not stay in the clouds. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

I am not denying the coming kingdom, I accept what Jesus taught about the kingdom. He and his apostles said we're a part of it if we're Christians.

John said, 2000 years ago, that he was in the kingdom along with the 7 churches of Asia to whom he was writing. It is you who rejects the coming kingdom because you deny it ever came.

altouthentop,

1. You are confusing the Kingdom of Heaven Reign with Christ and the physical Kingdom of Heaven which is this earthly sphere Daniel 7:27 of the physical Universal Kingdom of God Psalm 103:19; Colossians 1:16; Revelation 4:11; 5:11.

2. Daniel 7:27 proves that the KoH reign deals with the end times on earth that will have all saints will rule and reign and God will rule and reign and all dominions will serve him.

3. This proves the Kingdom of Heaven reign is not now for Christ and the saints are not ruling physically. It is not a spiritual reign known as the millennial kingdom like the Catholics and some others believe.
So you think Jesus was teaching the millennial kingdom now? You think John was saying that the KoH reign was happening when he got the vision? Jerry Kelso

 

[David Kent]

davidkent,

1. Ok, it says “and so shall ever be with the Lord” and not Heaven.
So where do you think the Lord and his saints will go to after he raptures the dead and living saints according to the scriptures because it doesn’t say to the earth either and I am sure we will not stay in the clouds. Jerry Kelso

It says Jesus will descend, it doesn't have to say to earth as there is nowhere elso to descend to. He will descend the same way he ascended, Acts 1:11

Jesus is descending,. Bible says that clearly. He will come the same way he left.

 

[jerry kelso]

It says Jesus will descend, it doesn't have to say to earth as there is nowhere elso to descend to. He will descend the same way he ascended, Acts 1:11

Jesus is descending,. Bible says that clearly. He will come the same way he left.

He left on a cloud and that is the way at the pre Tribute rapture. There are no clouds mentioned when he comes back in Revelation 19:11-18. Jerry Kelso