Sorry, I don't understand your questions.
Maybe answer my questions and it might give me some insight into what you are trying to say.
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Maybe answer my questions and it might give me some insight into what you are trying to say.
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I disagree with your opinion about those passages.
Your preferred translations of them are deceptive when they render aionion as eternal.
As we can see in the following examples the ancient usage of the word aionion does not mean "eternal" but refers to an indefinite finite duration of time, such as an eon or age, etc:
The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was
not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.
The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:
"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)
The Greek text may be found here:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf
In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":
""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"
" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)
"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments
" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis
Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":
"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine
Which is verified by the following:
https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf
The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”
“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]
Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:
"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."
"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."
"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine
Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net
Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:
"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
Hell's Destruction
Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)
Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":
(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
Greek text here:
http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf
And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:
"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)
Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:
Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika
Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).
Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.
https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame
In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
continued in my next post...
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Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:
"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".
"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."
"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf
Word Studies in the New Testament
Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:
"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."
"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."
"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:
Could most modern translations be in error?
Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:
"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".
"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."
"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf
Word Studies in the New Testament
Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:
"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."
"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."
"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:
Could most modern translations be in error?
Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
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Sodom's destruction will be reversed. Therefore it cannot be an example of endless annihilation. So this comment of yours is in error:
The destruction of Sodom by fire in the Old Testament will NOT be "eternal" but temporary.
As we have seen the historical evidence says the fire that destroyed Sodom was still burning around Jude's time. So your claim the fire was God who came down & then went back up again after destroying Sodom is in error.
Likewise you err in stating the fire referred to in Jude 1:7 is "eternal". For the fire that was still burning in Jude's time is not "eternal".
So translations that say "eternal" in Jude 1:7 are wrong, just as they are in Mt.18:8, 25:41, Jn.3:36; 2 Thess.1:9, etc. For more evidence of that see my previous two posts in this thread.
Furthermore Genesis 19:24 does not say, as you claim, that God as eternal fire came down and destroyed Sodom:
New King James Version
Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
NET Bible
Then the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. It was sent down from the sky by the LORD.
Young's Literal Translation
and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
If, as you claim, the fire was God coming down from heaven to destroy Sodom & going back up again, then the brimstone must also have been God coming down from heaven and going back up again. Yet today there is brimstone in Israel where Sodom was destoyed. It didn't go back up to heaven & it isn't God or eternal.
As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing sexual immorality, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian. (Jude 1:7)
Furthermore, the Greek word for "lying before us" in Jude 1:7 above means "to be open to public view". That is, it could be seen with one's own eyes what God had done to Sodom by going there and looking, seeing the brimstone all over the ground, the smoking from the "eonian fire" or "lasting fire" (not "eternal" fire) that was still burning, etc.
"πρόκειμαι (Hom.+; prim. ‘be set before one’) defective dep.
① to be open to public view, be exposed (of corpses lying in state Aeschyl., Sept. 965 al.) of Sodom and Gomorrah πρόκεινται δεῖγμα they are exhibited as an example Jd 7
(cp. Jos., Bell. 6, 103 καλὸν ὑπόδειγμα πρόκειται)." (BDAG)
It was "open to public view" what Jude was talking about when he speaks of pyros aioniou (fire aeonian). One could go to Sodom and see evidence of the lasting fire he was speaking of. No one going to Sodom would see an "eternal" fire of God's presence in the heavens, but an earthly temporary physical fire that with physical brimstone physically destroyed the bodies of those in Sodom temporarily until their physical recreation from the ashes at their resurrection.
Jude 1:7b says the fire could be seen in his day: "are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian"(Jude 1:7). So your claim, that the fire was God who returned to heaven after destroying Sodom, is erroneous.
Again the historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:
"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."
"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."
"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "
Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament
"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:
" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."
" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."
" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."
" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."
"Conclusion"
"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."
For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7
John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:
"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"
" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "
"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"
" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "
2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
The destruction of Sodom by fire in the Old Testament will NOT be "eternal" but temporary.
As we have seen the historical evidence says the fire that destroyed Sodom was still burning around Jude's time. So your claim the fire was God who came down & then went back up again after destroying Sodom is in error.
Likewise you err in stating the fire referred to in Jude 1:7 is "eternal". For the fire that was still burning in Jude's time is not "eternal".
So translations that say "eternal" in Jude 1:7 are wrong, just as they are in Mt.18:8, 25:41, Jn.3:36; 2 Thess.1:9, etc. For more evidence of that see my previous two posts in this thread.
Furthermore Genesis 19:24 does not say, as you claim, that God as eternal fire came down and destroyed Sodom:
New King James Version
Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
NET Bible
Then the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. It was sent down from the sky by the LORD.
Young's Literal Translation
and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
If, as you claim, the fire was God coming down from heaven to destroy Sodom & going back up again, then the brimstone must also have been God coming down from heaven and going back up again. Yet today there is brimstone in Israel where Sodom was destoyed. It didn't go back up to heaven & it isn't God or eternal.
As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing sexual immorality, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian. (Jude 1:7)
Furthermore, the Greek word for "lying before us" in Jude 1:7 above means "to be open to public view". That is, it could be seen with one's own eyes what God had done to Sodom by going there and looking, seeing the brimstone all over the ground, the smoking from the "eonian fire" or "lasting fire" (not "eternal" fire) that was still burning, etc.
"πρόκειμαι (Hom.+; prim. ‘be set before one’) defective dep.
① to be open to public view, be exposed (of corpses lying in state Aeschyl., Sept. 965 al.) of Sodom and Gomorrah πρόκεινται δεῖγμα they are exhibited as an example Jd 7
(cp. Jos., Bell. 6, 103 καλὸν ὑπόδειγμα πρόκειται)." (BDAG)
It was "open to public view" what Jude was talking about when he speaks of pyros aioniou (fire aeonian). One could go to Sodom and see evidence of the lasting fire he was speaking of. No one going to Sodom would see an "eternal" fire of God's presence in the heavens, but an earthly temporary physical fire that with physical brimstone physically destroyed the bodies of those in Sodom temporarily until their physical recreation from the ashes at their resurrection.
Jude 1:7b says the fire could be seen in his day: "are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian"(Jude 1:7). So your claim, that the fire was God who returned to heaven after destroying Sodom, is erroneous.
Again the historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:
"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."
"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."
"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "
Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament
"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:
" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."
" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."
" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."
" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."
"Conclusion"
"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."
For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7
John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:
"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"
" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "
"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"
" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "
2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
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Your response...
Well thank you for being honest about this dear Fine. Does this not worry you?
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No need for thanks brother Jack, it is God's Word not mine and his Spirit guides and teaches us. Kind of hard to have a conversation at the moment with some though. Very few of the content of my posts get responded to and the thread it getting spammed with repeated cut and paste repitition from Universalist website materials. It is interesting if you actually read and investigate the content just about every scripture posted in regards to the unrepentant wicked being saved after the second coming is actually to the saved before the second coming. UNIVERSALISM is not able to show from the scriptures that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. The bible is clear, that the unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
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Nothing worries me regarding our Father Abba's magnificent plan!
The silly sillies believe our God actually completes what He began. I will stand with the sillies!
“FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST.” (Luke 19:10)
From the Master’s own parables & His essential nature, so long as anything is lost, Jesus Christ will go on seeking and saving; for He is always the same? (Heb. 13:8). “The lost” are His charge, and not some of the lost!
Or are we to read this verse ? ?
He came to save the lost but those in the fullest sense lost He will never save?
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They are not my opinion dear friend they are Gods' Word not my words.
You have already been provided the scriptures showing that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed at the second death after the second coming here....
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.
You have no scripture to show that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. God's Word says the wicked are destroyed, do not receive life, are not written in the Lambs book of life and devoured and burned up like the wicked of Sodom and Gomorrha. What else do you want as proof? For me only God's Word is true and UNIVERSALISM has none for their claims that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS when the bible says they will be destroyed in the second death.
There is no salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The teachings of UNIVERSALISM are not biblical.
Goodness you were provided 27 (nearly all translations) to the use of aionion applied to both JOHN 3:36 and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and the BDAG Greek LEXICON and they all disagree with you. My friend aionion has more than one meaning it is the scripture context and application that determines the words meaning and application. You were also shown that the scripture contexts to JOHN 3:36 and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 agrees with aionion's application to being the Greek meaning of eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG)
As shown above the GREEK does not agree with your application of αἰώνιος aionion scripture context and application to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. In JUDE 1:7 it is the fire that is eternal that comes from God not the burning. So your application to burning is not relevant as the fire is from God and our God is the consuming fire according to the scriptures * *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; JUDE 1:7 and he is eternal.
The application of scripture context to αἰώνιος aionion's to being the Greek meaning of eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG) to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 is proven further already demonstrating the contexts in detail in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.
All of the above posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier.
Your simply wrong here dear friend.
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Most your post here has is only repitition and already addressed elsewhere. As shown above the GREEK does not agree with your application of αἰώνιος aionion scripture context and application to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. In JUDE 1:7 it is the fire that is eternal that comes from God not the burning. So your application to burning being eternal is not relevant as the fire is from God and our God is the consuming fire according to the scriptures * *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; JUDE 1:7 and he is eternal. The problem with what your providing here is that the Greek word use of αἰώνιος aionion has many meanings. It is the scripture contexts that determine the word meaning of αἰώνιος not the word in isolation of the scripture contexts to which they are applied. This is why the correct use of a Lexicon is needed to determine the word meanings. JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 use the Greek meaning of αἰώνιος aionion to eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG) as this is the scripture context and application of the Greek Word. All your posting above are examples of different context meaning of αἰώνιος aionion from other scriptures that are not relevant to the use of αἰώνιος aionion in JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. This is why your post here is in error. You do not understand the Greek languange or how it is used. This is why the Greek Lexicons and the 27 independent bible translations all disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures.
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I am sorry dear friend I do not agree with you. You have only provided repetition and repeated cut and paste while micro quoting my posts without addressing any content. As posted earlier, the application of scripture context to αἰώνιος aionion's to being the Greek meaning of eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG) to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 is proven by demonstrating the contexts in detail in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.
All of the above linked posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek and all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier that disagree with you.
Your simply wrong here dear friend.
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Nonsense.
It would be helpful in that regard if you fully answered my post # 1546.
Also the entire post # 1549.
And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?
All of post # 1553.
Post #1554 as well.
Don't forget post #1555.
And then there's post #1556.
Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:
Post 1513 another misrepresentation?
And you never addressed & refuted my points there.
Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.
Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.
Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.
Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.
Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.
As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."
You addressing all of the above would be a start.
There are also many other points in other posts to you you haven't addressed besides those.
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Nonsense. This is your repeat cut and paste that your spamming, I think the last time was in post # 1569 which was proven to be false and everything being already addressed in post # 1575 linked. More repeititious cut and paste without addressing any of the content of my posts to you.
Your just repeating yourself.
Hope this helps.
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Of course it's - your opinion - when you say say certain passages of scripture support your endless annihilationism viewpoints. Because the verses themselves don't say what you say. That's why you have to add your own commentary on them, which is your own words, not the words of scripture. If the Scriptures plainly supported your view, everyone would agree with you & you would only have to quote the Scriptures. Not add your comments. And most Christians throughout church history have disagreed with your endless annihilation opinion. Your opinions & commentary are not "God's Word", they are your words. I'm surprised this even has to be explained. Is English not your first language? Do you consider your opinions infallible? Are your opinions the Word of God?
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Not at all dear friend. They are Gods Word and I believe them as proven in the Greek as shown in BDAG and many other Lexocons which agree with 27 different independent bible translations that all disagree with you. I believe God is in control of his Word don't you?
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First of all, you failed to show any of your verses' contexts prove aionion means "eternal". Not a single one. Nil. Zilch. Nada. All you had was opinion.
Secondly, "a Lexicon" does not "determine...word meanings". What nonsense. Lexicons are merely the opinions of men, like commentaries are the opinions of men and sermons are the opinions of men & your remarks are the opinons of a man. "A lexicon" is not infallible & they often disagree with one another, as do scholars re word meanings, as i've shown you. Cherry picking "a lexicon" that supports your viewpoint is no proof or anything. Also, as i showed you, BDAG supports universalism. And you had no reply to that post whatsoever.
Context? What you just posted provided no context at all. Just reiterating your opinion or someone else's opinion. Not any context or what Scripture says. And if you posted those verses it would be from a misleading dishonest, wrong translation.
Other translations, scholars, lexicons, early church believers and early church fathers disagree with your opinion stated there. And all you're done is appeal to them like they're your pope that you have blind faith in. You have failed to prove your doctrine from the contexts of those passages. You have no credentials in the Greek language, so that's why you have to blindly trust others. But why not trust the other scholars who disagree with them.
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
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Not at all as shown earlier through the scriptures and the GREEK proven by the Lexicon and the 27 independent bible translations that all disagreed with you.
All you have posted are examples of different context meaning of αἰώνιος aionion from other scriptures that are not relevant to the use of αἰώνιος aionion in JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. This is why your post here is in error. You do not understand the Greek languange or how it is used. This is why the Greek Lexicons and the 27 independent bible translations all disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures.
The Lexicons you provided were not as detailed as BDAG and did not include context application to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 we discussed earlier. Your claim here was demonstrated to be a false claim. Everything that has been provided to you proves your in error as you have disregarded the Greek context applications to the different word meanings of aionion's application to being the Greek meaning of eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG)
A Lexicon show the different word meaning of the Greek applied to scripture contexts. As posted earlier, the application of scripture context to αἰώνιος aionion's from JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 being the Greek context eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG)
This has been proven further by demonstrating the contexts in detail of these scriptures in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.
All of the above linked posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek and all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier that disagree with you. This is the proof and the evidence you seek to deny by turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe. For me only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the very word of God.
Your simply wrong here dear friend.
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- Jul 10, 2016
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What? Are you saying your opinions are Gods word? You didn't answer my questions, yet claim falsely i don't answer your posts:
Of course it's - your opinion - when you say say certain passages of scripture support your endless annihilationism viewpoints. Because the verses themselves don't say what you say. That's why you have to add your own commentary on them, which is your own words, not the words of scripture. If the Scriptures plainly supported your view, everyone would agree with you & you would only have to quote the Scriptures. Not add your comments. And most Christians throughout church history have disagreed with your endless annihilation opinion. Your opinions & commentary are not "God's Word", they are your words. I'm surprised this even has to be explained. Is English not your first language? Do you consider your opinions infallible? Are your opinions the Word of God?
Do you also believe the following from BDAG which you ignored last time i posted it:
Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:
"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).
Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)
The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows
according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…”
https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/
The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)
What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)
And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:
"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."
"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108
108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."
"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
(2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
"many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
...Isa.53:11..."
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."
(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
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