• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Status
Not open for further replies.

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Jesus did come so that All will be saved. Not one will be lost. Every knee shall bow the knee and declare that Jesus is Lord.

That is a fact Nancy.

The Christ has 2 letters before the word "limited". Those 2 letters are "un".

It is also a fact that every knee bows in union with the Name of all names, It is NOT "at" the Name, it is IN/EN the Name. And, that worship IN His lovely Name is NOT by perfunctory genuflections!

Yup, every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heavens, earth & underworld all worshipping Him in at-one-ment.

Revelation 5:13 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
75
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟301,642.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I do not believe in eternal burning hell of the Catholic church dear friend. Neither the second chances of Universalism which I believe are both doctrines of devils. designed to lead people away from God and his Word.

I'm glad you do not subscribe to the ECT of the RCC, and since you reject Universal Reconciliation, you must be an annihilationist. So...I looked under your avatar, and saw that you are an Adventist. I should have added to my being an ex-damnationist and ex-atheist, that I am also an ex-Adventist. It was not just their slant on the end-times, either, though I did note that E.G. White proposed annihilationism, but also wrote of people going to Hell.

But tell me, how does your annihilationism deal with the Biblical prediction that Death will be defeated...versus the continued death of the wicked? I see no logical or theological way around that.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I'm glad you do not subscribe to the ECT of the RCC, and since you reject Universal Reconciliation, you must be an annihilationist. So...I looked under your avatar, and saw that you are an Adventist. I should have added to my being an ex-damnationist and ex-atheist, that I am also an ex-Adventist. It was not just their slant on the end-times, either, though I did note that E.G. White proposed annihilationism, but also wrote of people going to Hell.

But tell me, how does your annihilationism deal with the Biblical prediction that Death will be defeated...versus the continued death of the wicked? I see no logical or theological way around that.

Dear Laz: The dogma of annihilation may be more humane than E.T. but accomplishes the exact consummation.

Darkness prevails, the Author of Rectification fails.

Adam1 = many made sinners.

Last Adam = the same many "made righteous."
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
49ed54dc5e4925e14bde5634f19fd039aec0a419.jpeg


Are my old eyes failing me?

Is that the Master's sheep & goats?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hearing your not hearing dear friend. Do you know the scriptures in the post you were quoting from and what do you think they mean? You did not answer the question so I guess not. They mean we are not robots. God has given mankind freewill to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow his Word.

I believe I did answer your question and respond to the scriptures raised my friend. You may need to sleep a little more. I just dealt with this 'freewill' idea fairly comprehensively at #134. Prisoners and slaves don't have freewill. This is what the entire lesson of the history of Israel and the Gospel of Isaiah is about - God saying I sent you Israel to be a light for the gentiles but you dropped the ball and were taken into slavery yourself, ah but don't worry I'll send another saviour to bust you out cause I love you. The entire gospel is good news for that very reason - Jesus saves us despite our sin and error, in fact his total victory occurs in the midst of man's worst crimes - regicide and deicide. Contemplate that my friend. For sons of Adam the exercise of free will can only lead to death. Why Jesus is the Last Adam.

This is the underlying narrative pattern of the covenental relationship in scripture: God gives, Man fumbles, God's angered, Tribulation ensues, Man cries out, God saves. See the 'man fumbles...then cries out' bits? There's your exercise of 'free will' - 'We've all gone astray!'

His Salvation is the OMEGA. How much clearer can the HS be? You want to say that the little fishies are stronger than the winch that pulls in the net. Consider Hosea, a type of Christ, who gave it all to buy back his worthless whoring bride. Doesn't matter she wants to sleep around, God loves you so much He'll go through hell and death to save you. That's what a positive covenant is, friend. You uphold your end regardless that the other party gives you cause to cancel out.

One doesn't 'will to believe', that's called 'make-believe', or 'fantasy' and it's what Babylon runs on. Talk about imposing a modern western mindset on an ancient near-east text. Help my unbelief, Lord!

For many are called, but few are chosen and wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it. JESUS is pleading with us everyday through his love and his Spirit drawing us to him in love patiently waiting for us to turn to him. It is up to us to open the door to let him in. If we close the door there is no way for JESUS to reach us. A separation of our own making or free choice.

Think I might be headed for destruction if I can't learn more patience in addressing the same old canards time and again. The image of Jesus pleading with the church is an absolute travesty if he's coaxing us away from an eternal hellfire of his own making. The message is 'If you reject my sweet sweet love you'll burn in hell forever'. Hope you realise how psychotic that would be. Sounds more like the wicked witch of the west. Are you serious about that evil theology?

For those who are "hard working believers" JESUS promises to never forsake and never leave and says behold I am with you even unto the end of the world. They are His Sheep and they hear His Voice (the Word) and they follow him.

The hardworking believers was a reference to those who say 'Lord Lord did we not do great works and miracles in your name?' Could be you? Perish the thought! I used to be in one of those narrow-path mega-churches. Hyper-grace message at the front, underlying conviction of damnation for the many down the back. A little perverse until you realise how ECT supports tithing. Got your afterlife fire insurance policy there brother? Woe to these Babylon Churches.

God's judgement and justice to his enemies and those who reject the gift of God's dear son as it is written that if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

On your reading 99.99% of all Christians will be toast. Find me any great man of God in the Bible who didn't stuff up. This passage in Hebrews is concerned with new Hebrew Christians who are falling back into Jewish sacrificial practices. Paul is preaching that only Jesus' 'once and for all' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins, whereas the old system of ongoing animal sacrifices left everyone still anxious about being exposed to God's wrath. He's saying that you get a knowledge of your eternal security under the new covenant, and not needing to live in constant fear as under the old.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,635
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Have to go out for a while all thanks for the friendly discussion, if I have not got to you yet don't worry I will get back to you when I have some time. God bless all and may God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Blessings.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I was also thorough, so how did we arrive at such different conclusions? I know that I tried to not have any preconceptions when I began.

It is the same Holy Ghost we pray to, I assume. I never want to be misled, nor do I wish to mislead anyone. The Mormons want to know the same thing, they pray to and insist the Holy Ghost has led them to believe the BOM is true and so says every denomination. I know the Holy Ghost will not teach a doctrine that is contrary to the word of God.

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mormons rely on a burning bosom---I rely on the word of God and so do you. You tell me---for I can not see Uni. in His word. Nor Mormonism (God was never a man who became human!). There is way too much scripture that says the wicked will pay in the lake of fire with their lives, no verse says anyone comes out of the lake of fire. It says they go in, too many verses that says the wicked will be ashes under our feet--not one says those ashes will come back up to live with God. I ignore no verses. To me, the word that all are reconciled to Him, means all have that option available, not that it is guaranteed without their consent. Everything I read includes the individual making a decided stand to follow Jesus and live according to His word. Not one verse says even Satan will spend eternity with God--it clearly says He will not, nor his angels---that includes anyone who follows him, you are either for Him or against Him.

Luk_11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

I can not ignore these verses, nor give a different meaning to the word perish.

Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


deathy, devour, perish, destroy, ashes, ---or eternal life with Jesus. Only 2 choices, there is no 3rd.
There are 2 deaths, the death--sleep---which we all must do---and the 2nd death, from which the saved are shielded and from which there is no more awakening. I can not come with any other version. I do not decide the outsome, Glod doeds, and He has stated that outcome.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
75
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟301,642.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not to the lost!

"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name." - Isaiah 65:1 KJV
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi all,
I believe that God will save all and I don't act like a devil! But let me tell you who acted worse than devil's and that was people who believed in eternal torment, the inquisitors of the Spanish inquisition, those who persecuted Jews, and Queen Mary of England, who said that as God was going to eternally torment heretics, she would get in there first!!
The truth is "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ shall all be made alive. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ, thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation. That God may be All in all. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28.
We rely on the living God who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:9-11.
Eternal torment is the hypocrisy of false expressions in where we say that Jesus tells us to love our enemies but He doesn't forgive His!! If you believe now, thank God, not yourself (your works) because He gives you faith as there is no one who is righteous, not one, who seeks after God.
Nancy2

You tell em Nancy! All that untold misery done throughout history (and up to today!) due to the devil's pernicious doctrine of ECT, as exemplified by Queen Mary who saw herself as 'just doing God's work'.

Not to mention that it makes God out to be a hypocrite and a failure. But God is not mocked, and the greater the surprise in store for all those who doubt the eternal and absolute victory of His good and perfect plan.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name." - Isaiah 65:1 KJV

Isa 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
65
USA
✟106,673.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well I would say dear friend with all respect that you have a very bad habbit of making lot's of unfounded claims you cannot prove through the scriptures. Where did I say anywhere that the scriptures I provided above do not say God will not forgive those who keep practicing sin? I didn't this is simply a strawman argument your trying to make that no one is making. If you read the scriptures you would also know what the punishments are and the timing of those punishments at the second coming. Yep no more second chances. Are you with me now? They are not sent to the lake of fire to have a warm bath so they can turn to God again. That is simply not biblical. They are sent there for the wages of sin because they chose to reject the free gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.
I never wrote that you claimed that God will not forgive those who keep practicing sin. My point was that in Heb 10:26 since they persisted in sinning, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but of fearful judgment. In Heb 6:6, they are still sinning by crucifying and shaming Christ, thus it is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are still sinning. Presumably if they genuinely repented and ceased sinning, then God can forgive, but the text does not address that possibility. I think we agree that unrepentant sinners continuing in sin end up in the LOF; where we disagree is whether or not they end up there permanently.

Accordingly, you claim that people such as these have "no more second chances." If so, then we have a problem because you neglected to address verses that I cited i.e, Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10 which state that every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord - so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven, and on earth and under the earth. Who is under the earth? Is this referring to the grave; to Hades? There are only two types of people in the grave/Hades - saved and unsaved. Yet these verses declare the EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess which in totality includes not only the saved, but the unsaved as well. Since our doctrine requires that all the scriptures must support it, how do these scripture conform with your belief that no one gets a second chance? If you protest and claim that these verses do not state that salvation is involved I suppose you would be correct as salvation is not specifically mentioned, however if that is the case, what do these scriptures mean then? 1 Corinthians 12:3 states "Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit."

Well I thought that was obvious in the scriptures and the post you are quoting from. THE MANY that enter in at the WIDE Gate. Read the scriptures [13], Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[14], Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it. *MATTHEW 7:13-14. One way leads to LIFE (narrow way) and the other way leads to death (ἀπώλεια perishing; destruction) the WIDE Gate. You really can't see this? It is in the post you are quoting from.
Did you not understand what I wrote? The key word is FIND - more accurately translated by the present tense participle as FINDING. Jesus said few are finding it (narrow way). He did not say few will ever find it in the future as the future tense is not used here. Jesus was just stating the fact that few (are presently) finding the narrow way. You cannot use this verse as proof text to claim that all will never find the narrow way in the future simply because the future is not utilized in this verse. That would be like saying "I am not rich" which would be an accurate statement, however that present tense statement does not preclude the possibility that in the future - I will be rich.

1. Who is Paul's audience?
COLOSSIANS 1:1-12 the scripture here clearly show that Pauls letter is to well establsihed BELIEVERS in the Gospel of JESUS Christ
Paul's audience is indeed believers. So I'll cut to the chase here as my answer here will address all of your objections based on Colossians 1 so I don't have to go into great length and answer your other objections to my interpretation of this passage.
Paul summarizes his purpose in writing to the Colossian believers in 1:9:
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

So the pertinent question to ask is what is God's will that Paul wants us to understand? Well we don't have to look far do we as Paul wrote it in 1:20 - "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Paul is teaching spiritual truths in Colossians 1 - part of which includes v.20 which is an unconditional statement that doesn't happen to fit with your doctrine. So you have the choice to either ignore it or wrestle with it. I have the same choice to make when I encounter scriptures that don't happen to fit with my paradigm.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
65
USA
✟106,673.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You tell em Nancy! All that untold misery done throughout history (and up to today!) due to the devil's pernicious doctrine of ECT, as exemplified by Queen Mary who saw herself as 'just doing God's work'.

Not to mention that it makes God out to be a hypocrite and a failure. But God is not mocked, and the greater the surprise in store for all those who doubt the eternal and absolute victory of His good and perfect plan.
Indeed; the problem with eternal conscious torment and annihilation is that the Gospel which is the Good News is actually the "bad news" as the vast majority of humankind is never saved. Despite God being omniscient and omnipotent he fails to save all despite his stated will.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Indeed; the problem with eternal conscious torment and annihilation is that the Gospel which is the Good News is actually the "bad news" as the vast majority of humankind is never saved. Despite God being omniscient and omnipotent he fails to save all despite his stated will.


No, He doesn't fail---even if only one sinner was saved---He still would have won!! He will not force the mind into submissio0n. He'd rather have one free will, obedient person who loves Him, than 30 million He has to force. That's a success for Him. He has given the opportunity to all---it is up to them to choose what they want.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
65
USA
✟106,673.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, He doesn't fail---even if only one sinner was saved---He still would have won!! He will not force the mind into submissio0n. He'd rather have one free will, obedient person who loves Him, than 30 million He has to force. That's a success for Him. He has given the opportunity to all---it is up to them to choose what they want.
Still waiting for your answers to my simple questions. Do you still refuse to answer them either because of your unwillingness or inability?
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Still waiting for your answers to my simple questions. Do you still refuse to answer them either because of your unwillingness or inability?


Oh, bother---what were they---I was also working on a huge batch of chilli and sourdough bread and I am very tired--what are they.
 
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
65
Virginia Beach
✟64,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Questions like this are a matter of perception, where you are at in your journey inwards. ...

Most who believe in annihilation or eternal punishment also believe God foreknew before he created, I would think? I know I do ... Yet the book says it repented him that he had created man on the earth as if he didnt know before hand the outcome before he started, or that he had to go down to see for himself if what he heard was true concerning sodom and gomorrah, yet ... Jesus rebuked Thomas over a similar issue ...

The Bible is not the end, it is a means to an end ...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God's Word is good news indeed dear friend to those who believe and follow it.

The Greek verb "airo" you posted here does not effect anything that I have shared with you. What I have posted agrees with this meaning.

Unfortunately, as much as you love God's word, you are coming up short on the foundation of the koine

Airō is the foundation for what John beheld as he beheld the Saviour of the WHOLE kosmos!

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the whole world."

airō =

To lift up/ to draw up.

To take upon Himself & carry it away.

To remove & appropriate what is taken.


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.