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How do you interpret this?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:22-24, KJV)
(really how do you interpret all of Romans 9 to open that to discussion)
It touches on something you said before, that we didn’t do anything to deserve the mercy, and yet when we can trust that there’s no great thing we did to be able to become like this. I actually feel really uncomfortable with what seems like a sense of pride that can come from thinking one person is just smarter than another because they made the good choice to follow God and the other person made the bad choice not to, not because the choice isn’t good but because in the context of Jacob and Esau in the womb, looking at Jacob’s whole life, even with Leah and Rachel, it has to have been God’s will not Jacob’s personal greatness, and yet it still says that Esau found no place to repent and regain his birthright.
So what is the purpose of this if you believe (if I understand your view correctly)
Vessel -> Mercy -> Salvation -> Life
Vessel -> Wrath -> Destruction -> (Mercy&Salvation?) -> Life
What form is that life?
That can stand alone as the idea that it’s God’s mercy that can transform the vessel of destruction into the vessel of glory by his grace but it doesn’t answer the question of how to reconcile (in universalist thought) the idea that mercy and wrath are shown in contrast, that glory and destruction are shown in contrast, rather than as different means to the same end.Ephesians 2:3 explains that we were all, at one point in our lives, vessels of wrath: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Therefore a paraphrase of Romans 9:22-24, using the example of the converted Apostle Paul, would be: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience Saul, a vessel of wrath fit for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for Paul, a vessel of mercy which he has prepared beforehand for glory?
Hope that helps.
That can stand alone as the idea that it’s God’s mercy that can transform the vessel of destruction into the vessel of glory by his grace but it doesn’t answer the question of how to reconcile (in universalist thought) the idea that mercy and wrath are shown in contrast, that glory and destruction are shown in contrast, rather than as different means to the same end.
It was not posted for me. I posted a detailed scripture exegesis before posting those commentaries. I posted the commentaries for you as they supported my bible exegesis of REVELATION 5:6-13 I provieded to you showing the context you left out of using these scriptures to try and argue that they are in reference to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when they were in reference to the saved saints and not the unrepentant wicked. Unlike you to me, I did not ask you to address any commentaries. I provided them for you as you seem to follow them. So there is no contradictions or pot-kettles here my emphasis was on the scripture context and exegesis provided that you left out of your post that were provided before the commentaries were provided.That recalls this comment of yours: Pot-kettle?Why do you think I need to address someones opinion outside of the bible?
Please make up your mind! Which is it? Is it okay to post "someones opinion outside of the bible"? Yes or no?
Now here's what you've never responded to:"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." Philippians 2 Commentary - Vincent's Word Studies
"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."
"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).
"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."
"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"
"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.
"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"
(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)
"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":
https://translate.academic.ru/άμπτω/el/xx/
http://www.perseus.tufts.du/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ka/mptw
"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age
"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:
" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)
"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:
The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.
(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Evidently even the commentary you yourself posted above disagrees with you!
I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.
Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.
Feel free to - claim - anything you like. But it doesn't change the facts:
v.17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, which you are.
How is it God will destroy what some human has already destroyed (as v.17 says)?
Can God un-destroy & recover what has been destroyed? Of course. Look at the case of the King in Daniel 4.
The same Greek word for destroy is used by the same author later in the same epistle:
1 Cor.15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company destroys/ruins good morals.”
Of course one whose morals have been ruined/destroyed can have them restored again:
1 Tim.1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I posted:
Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
DA replied:
Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?
Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
DA replied:
Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
DA replied:
Not so. See above.
Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).
As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.
I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.
Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.
Again I just go back to thinking about the part and the whole, that it’s better to cut off a part (the hand which causes you to sin) than for the whole body to be destroyed, and the question of whether “Adam” is a group of disparate individuals or one cohesive body.They're not, though. You are just reading them as in contrast. Universalists see everything, even divine judgment and wrath, as extensions of God's perfecting love.
Psalm 145:17 Everything God does is right, the trademark on all his works is love.
It is not out of mercy. It is out of love.And I mean I’m really not comfortable thinking anyone would be destroyed because I really know it’s only by God’s mercy that I wouldn’t be, but that is also what makes me really not comfortable thinking that it’s anything other than mercy and why it seems like equating wrath with mercy is so wrong.
It is not out of mercy. It is out of love.
How do you interpret this?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:22-24, KJV)
Here is interlinear so I can try to follow along:The Wrath Of God
The question=
What does the koine katartízō from katá means?
The Answer=
To render i.e to fit, sound, complete.
To mend (what has been broken or rent) to repair.
To repair what has been broken or rent.
To complete.
To fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust.
To fit or frame for one’s self.
To prepare for one’s self.
To strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.
To make one what he aught to be.
“The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-
Punishment=Kolasis
Kolasis=
Correction.
Punishment.
Penalty.
Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo
Kolazo=
Correction=
- To lop or prune, as trees and wings.
- To curb, check, restrain.
- To chastise. To correct. Punishment .
- To cause to be punished.
Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.
Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.
Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.
Treatment of a specific defect.
The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.
A rebuke for making a mistake.
The act of punishing.
Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.
The act or process of correcting.
Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.
Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.
Amendation.
Rectification.
Rectification=
To set right. To correct.
To purify.
To correct by removing errors.
To adjust.
A quantity applied by way of correcting.
The act or process of correcting.
Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.
Amendation.
To correct something or make something right.
The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.
To correct by calculation or adjustment.
To adjust.
To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.
The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.
“Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”
Fitted= Katartizo=
To mend what has been broken or rent.
To repair.
To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.
To make one what he aught to be.
“In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him.” -C.S. Lewis
Notice the application and context of the very scripture your quoting here...
“The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver THE GODLY out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-
It is not talking about the ungodly or unrepentant wicked after the second coming dear Fine.
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