a-lily-of-peace
Well-Known Member
Then please understand that I am not comfortable with a thought where I would judge his fruit rather than Him judging mine.
Swords into plowshares.
Shalom.
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Then please understand that I am not comfortable with a thought where I would judge his fruit rather than Him judging mine.Lily: The question was for any reading these scribblings.
You are of course correct. Our God prevails. Mankind, absorbed in its wee broken wills? Nope!
The glorious message of John 3 for us & them is sure. God did NOT send His Son into the world for condemnation but to one end...
That the world should be saved in & thru Him.
LOL! Um---Nope! It takes you 10,000 words to explain that simple passage!!? You really think this needs a collage thesis?!
It is self explanatory
Again---No one who does not wish to be saved and live with God will be forced to do so.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So then, the other option, if the lake of fire does only last for an aion, what do you think comes after?
And how do you perceive “the Alpha and the Omega” as used here:
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
For those who take scripture in such a ridiculously extreme literalist manner, it can help to provide as many points destroying their false view of scripture as possible. But i see you have no response to any of it, just this empty bloviation, if you even read it & understood what you read.
Yet all will willingly freely wish and choose to be saved and live with God. So all will be saved.
Three assertions are made, generally, by Christians:
God loves everyone.
God can save anyone.
God's love never ends.
Only two of the above statements can be true at the same time if we assume that there are some who will not be saved (which is to say that we are not universalists). If God loves everyone, and if God can save everyone he loves, and if God does not change his mind about his love, then everyone will be saved.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.
In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.
Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.
How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.
Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28
You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.
By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.
If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).
What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).
Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:
1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:
"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."
As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":
Definition of DESTROY
A common definition of "destroy":
"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "
The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.
The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?
A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:
Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
--No verse states anyone comes out of that lake unto life eternal with Jesus---
And yes---He will caste off the unrepentant forever!!
I'd encourage you to read & seriously study scripture, not just SDA propaganda. Jesus calls us to follow Him, not some organization.
God is stronger than anything---so strong that He refuses to use coercion or force to obtain love, and His love does not involve force.
There most certainly are those who would rather die than to spend eternity with God.
XYZ said:God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....
Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.
God will not force--period. You choose willingly.
Who are you to tell Him He has to save even those who do not want to be saved?
Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!
o would wish to be annihilated out of existence forever? For Love Omnipotent to do so would be to deny Himself, what He is, namely Love Omnipotent. But the Scriptures say He cannot do that:
2 Tim.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
New American Standard Bible
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
New King James Version
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
King James Bible
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
The Father of all knows that's obviously not in the best interest of His created beings, so Love Omnipotent wont let anyone miss out on experiencing His endless love, joy & peace.
Assuming what you said is true, which is highly doubtful. Animals, even insects, have very strong instincts to survive.
Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!
Who would wish to be annihilated out of existence forever? For Love Omnipotent to do so would be to deny Himself, what He is, namely Love Omnipotent. But the Scriptures say He cannot do that:
2 Tim.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Everyone will.
"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” -
Eternity is a long time. People may hold onto their love of sin for mere decades, but holding onto it for an eon or two, let alone an infinite number of eons, is of a far higher degree of difficulty. Especially when they are up against an Almighty Being whose will is their salvation, Who is a love that burns more powerfully and longer than the sun.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
All of us were enemies of God and did not want to be saved. How many times did Saul who became Paul the apostle reject the gospel he heard from Christians he was persecuting and murdering as a serial killer. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. He was resisting the Holy Spirit & the truth. It took a personal appearance by Jesus to change him. He being the "chief of sinners".
I'm not telling Love Omnipotent He has to save anyone. He wants to! And He's promised that He will. I'm telling you the great news of what He's said. People can open their hearts to Him, pray & prayerfully study to show themselves approved to God, see, believe & rejoice or remain in their fears.
You know what---I'm about ready to put you on ignore!! These answers of yours are no answers, they are disertations and are not needed. Everything you write has to be a wall of text! I take it you never read Readers Digest and are incapable of condensing.Good night---I have no idea what you wrote and quite frankly---too tired to care.
Umm----we are talking about the lake of fire---there is no gambling and drinking and whoring going on in there!! How in the world you come up with this scenario is beyond me.
Narrow is the way---out of all the world, there were only 8 saved the first time!
We are given this life in which to live for Him. We either live with Him, or we die without Him. No other way is mentioned.
And?? None of this gives you the right to decide for God what to do with those who do not repent before death.
. It's called faith---you don't seem to have it---thus---nobody has to have it, everyone will be saved!!
LOL! Sorry to burst your bubble---but all I read anymore is my bible.
It’s not easy to read and I won’t say I understand it, but my impression is that those judged righteous who didn’t die in Christ would also need healing.In my opinion everyone will be saved, for God will be all "in all" (1 Cor.15:28):
1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:
1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.
So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:
1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.
I take that as referring to the yet future 2nd coming of Christ our Lord.
Revelation says the gates into the city will - never - be shut. And there will be leaves for the healing of the nations. At that time the saints in the city will be immortal & have no need of healing. The only ones needing healing are in the lake of fire.
Then please understand that I am not comfortable with a thought where I would judge his fruit rather than Him judging mine.
Swords into plowshares.
Shalom.
I trust him enough to say without seeing that I know what he does will be perfect.Lily: You may not be comfortable with resting your head upon the One who has spoken things thru the mouths of the prophets and priests of His glory, I am!
He can be trusted!
Lily: You may not be comfortable with resting your head upon the One who has spoken things thru the mouths of the prophets and priests of His glory, I am!
He can be trusted!
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