THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

a-lily-of-peace · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
I am not judging anyone? I am simply making an observation.

God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4) Agreed.

Sometimes a missionary isn’t a person who was raised in one country on earth who travels to another country on earth to preach the gospel.

Sometimes it’s someone who has an awareness that they are sojourner here and have a mission from their King. Sometimes that’s just typing someone else’s pamphlets and she doesn’t even call it her “ministry” because it’s just what she does, and she feels homesick when she can’t.

It’s all good if it’s done in Christ. The servant with three talents wasn’t rewarded any less than the servant with five.

mmksparbud · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
It is indeed the same fire.
Revelation 20:9 "But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown."

Your definition of repenting seems fleeting. It is not simply "Okay fine I repent" but rather a process that the Holy Spirit takes you through.

So why aren't all Christians full time missionaries? If you believe what you say, then the subject should be much more pressing to you. Are you responsible for the millions of people who have not yet accessed the message of Christ?

Repenting means to "turn away from"---it is not lip service! That is why id did not work for the inquisition, and doesn't work with the lake of fire. They have already made their decision! And there comes a time when Jesus says "It is Done" for the very last time.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

That means His work is done. He said it at the cross when His work on this earth as the Sacrificial Lamb was done. Finished. He says it again when His work as our High Priest is done---He is finished as the mediator between man and the Father. He comes as our Sovereign now, not as the Lamb. His work is finished.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

He comes with His reward---eternal life to those who chose Him. He does not come for the lost then.
Only the saved. That decision has been reached whilst He was our High Priest.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

When He comes, His brightness destroys the wicked, that is not just the beast---all the wicked that are alive at His return die. But the righteous are raised, this is the first resurrection.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Judgement comes after death. There is no other chance. There is no getting out of the lake of fire.

We are all to be missionaries for Christ. We do so where we are placed. We reach whom we can where God puts us. Yes, we are responsible for those we could have reached out to and failed to do so! It is an awesome responsibility. It is not to be taken lightly. We all must do what we can to spread His m---He is the way, the truth and the light. His blood saves and cleanses us from all sin. Repent. be baptized. Live according to His word. The message is not---live like how you want for you have a 2nd chance after death!

Oldmantook · May 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your not telling the truth dear friend. Your question was addressed in post 921 linked go and read it.

From post 921 linked excerpt is provided below...

This also is easy. Read the context your leaving out. REVELATION 21:23-27 in the KJV says

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Now lets consided all the scripture CONTEXTS in relation to Gods saints and where they are and the wicked and where they are starting with REVELATION 21:7-8?

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

So v7-8 state that God's saints who overcome sin (keep his commandments) will inherit all things, while the wicked shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH! These scriptures also support what REVELATION 22:15 says that with wicked are OUTSIDE of the CITY.

Let's continue to key verses in REVELATION 21:24 and REVELATION 21:27...

[24], And THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Note; in the KJV the nations that are entering the city (nations ἔθνος means a multitude of peoples of the same origins - God's church in context is to the saved or those entering the city of God) are the saved. This is further demonstrated in REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter the city of God only those who are written in the lambs book of life. According to REVELATION 21:8 and REVELATION 22:14 the wicked are OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH!.

Hope this is helpful dear friend. I pray that you may please take some time to consider the context and the scriptures provided as this is only sent in love and as a help.

...............

As shown above your claims are simply unfounded.

Your answer - if you can call it that - is amazingly shallow. All you do is basically quote the passage. Not a good way to form your doctrinal belief as you made no effort to determine just who are the kings of the earth and how/why they enter the city as I asked you to do. No wonder you believe the way you do as you fail to consider the context which ironically you accuse me of doing. I don't like doing your home work for you but since you neglected to do a proper study for yourself I'll answer my own question.

In the Book of Revelation, the phrase βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς transliterated as basileus ho gē or "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev. 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24.
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. Rev 6:15
With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. Rev 17:2
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:18
For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Rev 18:3
When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. Rev 18:9
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. Rev 19:19
And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Rev 21:24

Do you notice a big problem here? In all but the last citation, the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the sworn enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). There is no variance in the Greek as to how they are described as the phrase kings of the earth/basileus ho gē is the same in all occurrences in Revelation. In order to maintain a consistent hermeneutic, one must assume that these kings who enter the New Jerusalem are the same kings described elsewhere in Revelation unless something in the text indicates otherwise. I can find nothing in the text that indicates such a difference.

Now that we have identified the "who" question in regards to who the kings of the earth are, the next question is how is it possible that they can enter the city? After all, nothing unclean, detestable, false can enter but only those in the Lamb's book of life. The kings of the earth were God's sworn enemies whom He vanquished at Jesus' second coming. They certainly don't meet the criteria for being in the Lamb's book of life as specified in Rev 21:27 and as a result they end up in the lake of fire. You have claimed that those in the LOF don't get a second chance. Now you have to explain how come the kings of the earth get a second chance. You have to explain why they are allowed into the New Jerusalem as described in Rev 21:24. As I already explained earlier, those in the LOF are the ones washing their robes/doing His commandments in 22:14. The kings of the earth have to wash their garments to make them clean/do his commandments while in the LOF - which they refused to do while they were alive on the earth. These are actions which constitute their repentance and in doing so, they will then have the right to the tree of life and they shall enter through the gates of the city.

Now that we have answered the "how" question of how the kings of the earth are allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, the next question is why are they allowed to enter? The simple answer to that question is that it fulfills God's purpose to reconcile ALL things to Himself.
Col 1:19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Phil 2:9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Neither eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire or annihilation accomplishes God's stated purpose of reconciliation. Only the view of Christian Universalism accomplishes that - even to the extent that the kings of the earth are eventually reconciled to God and enter into the New Jerusalem.

mmksparbud · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
I would say you are doing the same!

I have stated my opinions on the verses that LovesGodsWord has referenced many times. I am not ignoring them. I see them plainly and I address them (you can refer to my previous posts.)

If hellfire did not exist, would you still follow Christ?

The answer is of course YES! Why do you assume the same is not true for people hearing the gospel for the first time?

Absolutely! The prize is not escaping hell fire! The prize is everlasting WITH JESUS CHRIST! He is the reason to live forever---to be with Him. Without Him, everlasting life is nothing. Without Him, heaven would not be heaven. Hell is not needed to keep man from sinning again---All Jesus will ever have to do in the New Earth is to spread open His arms and we will see His scars still. That site is love for us. That sight is love---and that is what will keep us from ever sinning again.

Now---I must go again---too long at this. I have to be careful with how much time I spend on here.

agapelove · May 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The punishment for the unrepentant Wicked at the second coming is outlined in the context of MATTHEW 25:46 which is provided in MATTHEW 25:41 which is everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

You interpret retributive punishment. I interpret corrective punishment. Agree to disagree.

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense. What words did I add to scripture? Be specific and lets talk detail. Prove to me that I added to the scriptures. I did not add anything. I simply pointed out from the scriptures what your not seeing. Your being vague now because you do not want me to examine your claims. Everything you have posted so far has proven to be unbiblical and not relevant to my claims with you that the the scriptures teach that the unrepentant wicked do not receive everlasting life after the second coming but the second death in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his Angels.

Sorry if I seem vague I am just tired of repeating myself.
You say quote "most of your scriptures you provided was in application to the wicked who repent and turn to God pre second coming." unquote.

You are adding your own application as you have done with all of ClementOfA's passages. Doesn't it say in scripture "He is before all things, and in him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." (Colossians 1:17) The implication is that all things that currently exist are already IN CHRIST. Whether you are repentant or not you are held together IN CHRIST. If you are outside Christ you would simply not exist.

So please stop adding "ALL" only means "ALL WHO REPENT AND THEREFORE ARE IN CHRIST." We are already in Christ!

LoveGodsWord said:
What right then have you to reject God's Word? Yet here you are having no scripture to support your believe? Does this not worry you? It should and it is the scriptures that open blind eyes why do you not believe; Universalism is not biblical and a doctrine of devils that lead many to think they can live like the devil today gamble with the lady of second chances tomorrow. This is not biblical as you already know.

Frankly I am tired of you attacking my belief system and claiming that it is unbiblical and "from the devil". Do you know how personally offensive that is? Are you assuming that I live like the devil?

I have tried to show that universalism IS in Scripture if you choose to see it. Why do you choose NOT TO HOPE?

agapelove · May 3, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
Sometimes a missionary isn’t a person who was raised in one country on earth who travels to another country on earth to preach the gospel.

Sometimes it’s someone who has an awareness that they are sojourner here and have a mission from their King. Sometimes that’s just typing someone else’s pamphlets and she doesn’t even call it her “ministry” because it’s just what she does, and she feels homesick when she can’t.

It’s all good if it’s done in Christ. The servant with three talents wasn’t rewarded any less than the servant with five.

I completely agree with you.

I was simply making a point about responsibility. We can evangelize but ultimately it is not our responsibility to convert people and if people choose not to repent that is not on us.

a-lily-of-peace · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
I completely agree with you.

I was simply making a point about responsibility. We can evangelize but ultimately it is not our responsibility to convert people and if people choose not to repent that is not on us.

I’ll add that if they do repent, it’s no credit to us either.

So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ” (Luke 17:10, NKJV)

We aren’t able to do anything beyond what we were given to do.

That doesn’t mean not to be happy, not to take joy that you can see fruits, but the joy is in knowing that you’re one of God’s people, not pride in what a good job you did.

a-lily-of-peace · May 3, 2020

And please don’t think I’m being critical, I wouldn’t know to type this if I had not already seen the many times I’ve failed at it.

LoveGodsWord · May 3, 2020

Oldmantook said: ↑ Furthermore you conspicuously avoided answering my direct question to you as to Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem? Since our discussion has been at an impasse for quite some time, I asked you that question to demonstrate to you from the scriptures that your view is incorrect. You can either choose to answer it or refuse.

Responded with...

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Your not telling the truth dear friend. Your question was addressed in post 921 linked go and read it. From post 921 linked excerpt is provided below...
This also is easy. Read the context your leaving out. REVELATION 21:23-27 in the KJV says

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Now lets consided all the scripture CONTEXTS in relation to Gods saints and where they are and the wicked and where they are starting with REVELATION 21:7-8?

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

So v7-8 state that God's saints who overcome sin (keep his commandments) will inherit all things, while the wicked shall have their part in the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH! These scriptures also support what REVELATION 22:15 says that with wicked are OUTSIDE of the CITY.

Let's continue to key verses in REVELATION 21:24 and REVELATION 21:27...

[24], And THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

Note; in the KJV the nations that are entering the city (nations ἔθνος means a multitude of peoples of the same origins - God's church in context is to the saved or those entering the city of God) are the saved. This is further demonstrated in REVELATION 21:27 which states that the wicked do not enter the city of God only those who are written in the lambs book of life. According to REVELATION 21:8 and REVELATION 22:14 the wicked are OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH!.

Hope this is helpful dear friend. I pray that you may please take some time to consider the context and the scriptures provided as this is only sent in love and as a help.

...............

As shown above your claims are simply unfounded.

You then read what you did not earlier...

Oldmantook said:
Your answer - if you can call it that - is amazingly shallow. All you do is basically quote the passage. Not a good way to form your doctrinal belief as you made no effort to determine just who are the kings of the earth and how/why they enter the city as I asked you to do. No wonder you believe the way you do as you fail to consider the context which ironically you accuse me of doing. I don't like doing your home work for you but since you neglected to do a proper study for yourself I'll answer my own question.

Goodness dear friend so you decided to read that post. So do you have anything to apologise for? I will ignore your unfounded accusations that you cannot prove and let God's Word do the talking for me as I think God's Word speaks louder then empty words that are not based on truth. The context of the sciptures were provided to answer your question. That is why they were provided as the answer to your questions was in the scripture context you left out. You seem to like cherry picking the scriptures devoid of context and this is what has lead you in to a false interpretation of the scriptures. Not just for REVELATION 22:14 as demonstrated in the linked posts provided in post 921 linked but also for REVELATION 21:23-27 demonstrated in the chapter context you ignored.

Oldmantook said:
In the Book of Revelation, the phrase βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς transliterated as basileus ho gē or "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev. 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24.

Hmmm Yep and this is relevant how? Did I disagree or say that βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς does not mean kings of the earth? -Nope

Oldmantook said:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. Rev 6:15 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. Rev 17:2

No wonder you finding this difficult. Your not reading context again. Let see why your not applying context again. The context of ....

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE

Note: the above passage to nations of the earth and the kings that enter into the city or God's Kingdom is in reference to the new JERUSALEM that comes down from heaven prepared for the God's saints. Note v24 it is the nations and the kings of the saved not the wicked. The wicked are outside of the city of God and are not written in the Lambs book of life v27. In fact the unrepentant wicked as shown in the context of REVELATION 21:8 are outside of the city in the lake or fire receiving the punishment of their sins which is the "SECOND DEATH" *REVELATION 21:8 also repeated in REVELATION 22:15. So nope no wicked in the city of God.

Who are the kings of the nations of the saved? Well dear friend there are so many shall we list a few? How about these...

1. King David *1 Kings 15:5
2. King Solomon *2 Chronicles 1-9; 1 Kings 3:3
3. King Asa *2 Chronicles 14-16; 1 Kings 5:11-14
4. King Jehoshaphat *2 Chronicles 17-20; 1 Kings 22:42-43
5. King Jotham *2 Kings 15; 2 Kings 15:32-34
6. King Uzziah *2 Chronicles 26; 2 Chronicles 26:3-4
7. King Hezekiah *2 Chronicles 29-32; 2 Kings 18:1-6
8. King Josiah *2 Chronicles 34-35; 2 Kings 22:1-2

Remember dear friend that context of REVELATION 21:23-27 is to the saved not the wicked. All the unrepentant wicked are outside of the city and receiving the "SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE" *REVELATION 21:8 and are not written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 21:27. This is the context of REVELATION 21 and REVELATION 22.

Oldmantook said:
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:18 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Rev 18:3 When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. Rev 18:9 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. Rev 19:19 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Rev 21:24. Do you notice a big problem here?
In all but the last citation, the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the sworn enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). There is no variance in the Greek as to how they are described as the phrase kings of the earth/basileus ho gē is the same in all occurrences in Revelation. In order to maintain a consistent hermeneutic, one must assume that these kings who enter the New Jerusalem are the same kings described elsewhere in Revelation unless something in the text indicates otherwise. I can find nothing in the text that indicates such a difference.

Now that we have identified the "who" question in regards to who the kings of the earth are, the next question is how is it possible that they can enter the city? After all, nothing unclean, detestable, false can enter but only those in the Lamb's book of life. The kings of the earth were God's sworn enemies whom He vanquished at Jesus' second coming. They certainly don't meet the criteria for being in the Lamb's book of life as specified in Rev 21:27 and as a result they end up in the lake of fire. You have claimed that those in the LOF don't get a second chance. Now you have to explain how come the kings of the earth get a second chance. You have to explain why they are allowed into the New Jerusalem as described in Rev 21:24. As I already explained earlier, those in the LOF are the ones washing their robes/doing His commandments in 22:14. The kings of the earth have to wash their garments to make them clean/do his commandments while in the LOF - which they refused to do while they were alive on the earth. These are actions which constitute their repentance and in doing so, they will then have the right to the tree of life and they shall enter through the gates of the city.

Now that we have answered the "how" question of how the kings of the earth are allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, the next question is why are they allowed to enter? The simple answer to that question is that it fulfills God's purpose to reconcile ALL things to Himself.
Col 1:19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Phil 2:9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Neither eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire or annihilation accomplishes God's stated purpose of reconciliation. Only the view of Christian Universalism accomplishes that - even to the extent that the kings of the earth are eventually reconciled to God and enter into the New Jerusalem.

Indeed! I see a BIG problem here dear friend. You have run away from the CONTEXT of REVELATION 21:7-27, which is in reference to the "SAVED" nations (multitudes) and kings of the earth to scripture references of the "WICKED KINGS" of the earth and taking the scriptures out of context again even after the scriptures expressly state that NONE OF THE WICKED ENTER THE CITY AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD. All the unrepentant "WICKED" are outside of the city in receiving the "SECOND DEATH" in the lake of fire *REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 21:27; REVELTION 22:14-15. These scriptures are the CONTEXT of REVELATION 21. Your scriptures are in refernece to the "WICKED" Kings of the world not the saved. Your house of cards dear friend has come crashing down. Do you understand why you are in error friend? Your mixing up the saved with the wicked and removing yourself from the scripture CONTEXTS again.

Hope this helps

LoveGodsWord · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
You are adding your own application as you have done with all of ClementOfA's passages. Doesn't it say in scripture "He is before all things, and in him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." (Colossians 1:17) The implication is that all things that currently exist are already IN CHRIST. Whether you are repentant or not you are held together IN CHRIST. If you are outside Christ you would simply not exist.
So please stop adding "ALL" only means "ALL WHO REPENT AND THEREFORE ARE IN CHRIST." We are already in Christ!

Not really dear sister. "IN CHRIST" means those who have accepted CHRIST. Read the supporting scriptures. "IN CHRIST" is in reference to the saved not the "WICKED"! You were asked to provide a single scripture stating that the wicked will be saved after the second coming yet here we still are and you have provided none dispite the multitude of scriptures teaching that the unrepentant "WICKED" are destroyed in the "SECOND DEATH" in the lake of fire and do not enter into God's Kingdom.

agapelove said:
Frankly I am tired of you attacking my belief system and claiming that it is unbiblical and "from the devil". Do you know how personally offensive that is? Are you assuming that I live like the devil? I have tried to show that universalism IS in Scripture if you choose to see it. Why do you choose NOT TO HOPE?

It is not aimed at you dear friend. It is aimed at the teaching which I believe I have proven from the scriptures is not biblical. That is what the OP is about. You do not have to come here if you do not wish to as no one is forcing you to and the OP topic is clearly labelled. Pehaps God has brought you here for a reason? If you feel convicted then perhaps it is God's Spirit talking with you? Please do not get upset because scriptures and questions are provided that challenge what you believe. That is not the purpose of this thread.

We will indeed have to agree to disagree. I believe everything you have provided has been, examined in detail through the scriptures showing why I believe what you have provided is in error. What you are teaching and claiming I beleive is unsupported by scripture and is not biblical. For me I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgement day. Thanks for sharing your thoughts but as you can tell I do not believe you. That is nothing personal I have shown why I do not believe your claims to Universalism and asked you for scripture which you have been unable to provide. You are free to believe as you want and I wish you well and pray that our conversation has given you something to pray about.

a-lily-of-peace · May 3, 2020

Nebuchadnezzar / Belshazzar show the difference between a repentant and unrepentant king.

Job is probably the best example. He lived and died before Christ, and as I understand he was a gentile who lived around the time of Abraham. Yet it begins:

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. (Job 1:1, NKJV)

Shrewd Manager · May 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
It depends on what Greek manuscripts are being used. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus while most of the modern versions use NA/UBS in the earlier case on REVELATION 22:14 there is differences between the two Greek manuscripts (more detail here). The tranlsation of the individual words are also dependent on the surrounding word contexts to which they are applied. In the case or REVELATION 7:14 application to πλύνω (plunó) or to wash is to μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς which is the surrounding scripture context to eplynan (they have washed). This agrees however in both the Textus Receptus and the NA/UBS manuscripts as seen in nearly every parallel translations linked.

So how do you account for the inconsistent translation of the word pluno/ plynontes in the kjv between Rev 7:14 and 22:14? I don't see how different textual traditions could affect the same book of the same version of the Bible.

JacksBratt · May 3, 2020

agapelove said:
You seem to have a very reduced view of the gospel.

What then of the unborn babies who never had a chance to accept Christ during this lifetime? What then of those who did not have the mental capacity to understand the gospel? What then of citizens in countries who do not allow religious freedom? What then of the many people who the gospel has been kept a secret? The list goes on.

I'm sure you have heard these questions millions of times... would you agree that God is allowed to show mercy on them and judge them on a different basis? Or do you believe that God has purposely hidden the message of the gospel from a large percentage of the population so that he can show how "just" He is?

What......... are you talking about..

This is only for those that are of a mental maturity and capacity to be responsible and accountable for their actions and decisions.

Or, are you of the mind that aborted babies, mentally retarded, those with cerebral palsy, autistic, and those that never live to an age where they are even capable of comprehending the gospel, right, wrong, sin, repentance.... are going to be condemned by a God who personifies love, mercy and grace?

Your question is ridiculous.

LoveGodsWord · May 3, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
So how do you account for the inconsistent translation of the word pluno/ plynontes in the kjv between Rev 7:14 and 22:14? I don't see how different textual traditions could affect the same book of the same version of the Bible.

You were posted the answer in the post you are quoting from what you do think what the post you are quoting from says so I can understand how you interpreted my post to you? The inconsistencies are in the manuscripts that translations come from. There is more problems in the NA/UBS manuscripts to which the newer tranlations are derived than the Textus Receptus. There is no inconsistencies in REVELATION 7:14 (washed) which all translations agree. This is not the same as REVELATION 22:14 which the Greek is ongoing application to either doing or washing.

JacksBratt · May 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
You seem not to sense or appreciate gentle sarcasm. It must have fallen in a sarchasm before it reached you.

If I'm posting something sarcastic.. I don't usually have to post it three times...

Shrewd Manager · May 3, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What......... are you talking about..

This is only for those that are of a mental maturity and capacity to be responsible and accountable for their actions and decisions.

Or, are you of the mind that aborted babies, mentally retarded, those with cerebral palsy, autistic, and those that never live to an age where they are even capable of comprehending the gospel, right, wrong, sin, repentance.... are going to be condemned by a God who personifies love, mercy and grace?

Your question is ridiculous.

JB, if your justice system is bifurcated to total 'bliss' or 'misery' and the sole condition is 'accepted Jesus before death?', then you do not have a justice system, you have a computer game unworthy of even a child's interest. A total cartoon caricature. Come on, even man's justice is way better than that.

JacksBratt · May 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
I learned a new word today. Thanks, Laz!

"Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it. 9. Inoculatte: To take coffee intravenously when you are running late"

Sarchasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit, and the person who doesn't get it.

"Sarchasm"... Definition... Not to be confused with "sarcasm"...
"Sarchasm" is stating something as a ridicule but, after stating the ridiculing statement the third time, you are called out on it... ... Then... you claim "sarcasm" to save face and further ridicule.

It's similar to "Geoking" (pronounced "joking") Where the offender states something as a fact.. but, after being shown they are in serious error... claim it was a "joke"...

JacksBratt · May 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
Stay safe, have a great weekend. Love Omnipotent loves you beyond what you can even imagine!

Absolutely...

FineLinen · May 3, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What......... are you talking about..

This is only for those that are of a mental maturity and capacity to be responsible and accountable for their actions and decisions.

Or, are you of the mind that aborted babies, mentally retarded, those with cerebral palsy, autistic, and those that never live to an age where they are even capable of comprehending the gospel, right, wrong, sin, repentance.... are going to be condemned by a God who personifies love, mercy and grace?

Your question is ridiculous.

You evidently do not believe we are sinners by disposition. It is called total depravity. In short, we are born sinners. As we get the opportunity to demonstrate it, how easy it is.

Again today across this Globe over 15K. children under age 5 dies. They are sinners by birth, most know zero of anything but hunger & despair.

God is working to meet and correct some awful fall ." - Andrew Jukes-

This is precisely what the Restitution of our Abba is about.

The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things.

The complete book below >>>>

The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes (Index)

The Restitution of All Things, Andrew Jukes

The Author & Finisher is working to meet & correct some awful fall.

Shrewd Manager · May 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
You were posted in the answer in the post you are quoting from what you do think what the post you are quoting from says so I can understand how you interpreted my post to you? The inconsistencies are in the manuscripts that translations come from. There is more problems in the NA/UBS to which the new tranlations are derived than the Textus Receptus. There is no inconsistencies in REVELATION 7:14 which is not the same as REVELATION 22:14

Do you accept that the kjv bases its interpretation of 'wash' in:

Rev 7:14 on the word 'pluno'?
Rev 22:14 on the word 'plynontes'?

And that those 2 Greek words are the same root, 'to wash'?

If not, what Greek words do the kjv's base manuscript contain? Provide links in support.

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