THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

FineLinen said:

Good old Lover has created a thread which has exceeded her intent. The Maginot Line of the Restitution of all things is continuing to stand as a bulwark in response. Agape Love has joined the resistance movement. Welcome Agape, your posts are a delight!

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FineLinen said:

Lover: It is very fortunate we arrived on this link of yours just in the nick of time for you to set us straight (lol) with your extensive gobs of goggledegook.

We stand before Him stark naked, in dire need of the Touch of all touches. Nothing to offer Him, absolutely notin! It is in this fallen condition He finds us, broken & bruised requiring at-one-ment. Yes, He is the Master of broken mankind, not simply wanting us Home, but determined it shall be! Yup, He "willeth (thelo)" all mankind to be saved!

Your dogma (#7) maintains most of the lost fallen wrecks will be lost.

The restitution of the ta pavnte declares otherwise!

No more let sin & sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow "far as the curse is found.."

The radical all of creation shall be delivered from the tyranny of change & decay into His glorious Plan of at-one-ment.

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Shrewd Manager said:

So, let me get this straight. Early Church largely accepts the Hebraic view, being that God is divine fire and saves whomever He will from death and hell by fire.

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Shrewd Manager said:

Then Augustine comes along, fatherless fellow, ambitious, with a mighty intellect, Roman law, Latin language, pagan dualist philosophy background, and pushes damnation theory into top spot in Church eschatology.

Pope then receives a memo from theologians unknown to the effect 'Sorry Boss, but that means we're all damned, cause NOBODY dies without sin but Jesus.' So the solution is postulated, hmmmm...Purgatory, the cleansing ale for believers 'on the right path'. Phew, that was close. And it worked, seeing as the Lake of Fire was already there, in scripture. Well how about that?

Ok, fast forward a few hundred years, this Damnation and Purgatory deal's causing issues, not least in the form spiritual terrorism, Papal indulgences, endemic corruption, Rome again become the devil's playground. Oh Rome, wilt thou ever?

So God raises up prophets, notably Savonarola the Florentine, who shook it up, but still they refused to repent. Then Luther, remembered for his inspired refocus on 'sola fides', justification by faith alone, relying primarily on Hab 2:4, raged against the machine.

'Well done faithful servant' I can envisage God saying, 'now close the gate.' But despite his vaunted contempt with the excesses of Rome, their self-serving and idolatrous system based on 'work-purgatory-heaven' credits, Luther failed to do so, he failed to LAY THE AX TO THE ROOT of the problem. So what did the protestant reformers do? They untethered heaven from works, dispensed entirely with purgatory, and retained eternal damnation (perhaps even enlarged it). So the legacy of Luther is the DOUBLING DOWN on the problem of how a loving God can doom ppl. Las Vegas Love, here we come! So God in His infinite wisdom returns the sceptre to the Jews. Hilarious but true. And 'modernity' ensues, in the form of usurocracy. And still the protestants don't see it, and still they clamour over the requisite degree of commitment for salvation (as though the Doctor comes for the healthy!), paying their tithes for afterlife fire insurance while scorning indulgences and works-based justification. Friend, your guys missed the boat, but it's not too late to see the error of your ways. And that's the good news. I know you'll pay no attention to this post, but there it is. Protestantism may claim to be big on fides, but certainly there's 'room for improvement' on ratio.

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FineLinen said:

Lover: It is my extreme delight. This is becoming one of my favorite links full of lovely gobs of misplaced dogma. How does # 7 of your organization deal with ta pavnte?

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LoveGodsWord wrote: No need to guess here and post walls of second hand information from the teachings of men. DESTRUCTION means DESTRUCTION. But first let's look at the context again and define the topics of discussion.

1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-19
[4], For while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?
[5], Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6], I HAVE PLANTED, APOLLOS WATERED; BUT GOD GAVE THE INCREASE.
[7], SO THEN NEITHER IS HE THAT PLANTS ANY THING, NEITHER HE THAT WATERS; BUT GOD THAT GIVES THE INCREASE.
[8], NOW HE THAT PLANTS AND HE THAT WATERS ARE ONE: AND EVERY MAN SHALL RECEIVE HIS OWN REWARD ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR.
[9], FOR WE ARE LABORERS TOGETHER WITH GOD: YOU ARE GOD'S HUSBANDRY, YOU ARE GOD'S BUILDING.
[10], ACCORDING TO THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME, AS A WISE MASTER BUILDER, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, AND ANOTHER BUILDS THEREON. BUT LET EVERY MAN TAKE HEED HOW HE BUILDS THEREUPON.
[11], FOR OTHER FOUNDATION CAN NO MAN LAY THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.
[12], NOW IF ANY MAN BUILD ON THIS FOUNDATION GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE;
[13], EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST: FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS.
[14], IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE WHICH HE HAS BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD.
[15], IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

Ok lets summarise the context and the topic of conversation from 1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-15

1. Paul is showing that those who follow people are carnal and state that the work of spreading the Gospel of Gods’ kingdom takes many people working together with God’s Spirit who gives the increase (saved souls) v4-7

2. Every man receives his own reward for his own labours in speading the Gospel and building up God’s kingdom v8-9

3. PAUL as a wise master builder has laid the foundation of the Gospel which is CHRIST and we should all be careful how we build upon the foundation of Christ representing what we teach others in relation to the Gospel as no other foundation can be laid but the gospel of JESUS Christ and his death for our sins. v10-11

4. Then Paul states v12-14 that if any man build on the foundation of Christ in spreading the gospel (v4-11) some will do better then others building on Christ as the true foundation as Gold, Silver, Precious stones, Wood Hay, Stubble. Not literally but as a metaphor of the work of spreading the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ and building on the knowledge of Christ and him crucidied. As can be shown in the CONTEXT the subject matter is that of the work of spreading the Gospel commission that JESUS has given to all Christians and building the church to a closer walk with God.

5. Now we have provided CONTEXT let’s look at the scripture…

[15], IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

So considering the context already shown the work here that is being spoken of is the work of “BELIEVERS” spreading the gospel who are building on the foundation of Christ. Everyones work of spreading the gospel commission will be tested with fire some will bear fruit and others will suffer loss (were not successful in bringing people to Christ and building up the Church). Though these people may not have had much success in building up the Church because they built on the FOUNDATION OF CHRIST v11 they will be saved!

As proven above there is no one single scripture in 1 CORINTHIANS 3 that is even talking and has application to the lost or the wicked. The context is to speading the gospel and the work of spreading the gospel and it is written to “BELIEVERS” not “UNBELIEVERS” so your interpretation here is nonsense.

Now notice v16-17

[16], KNOW YOU NOT THAT YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, AND THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU?[17], IF ANY MAN DEFILE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY; FOR THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS HOLY, WHICH TEMPLE YOU ARE.

Notice now we are looking at separate subject matter. It is no more about the work of God and laying the foundation of Christ and every mans work of spreading the Gospel. Paul is now talking about “BELIEVERS” as being the “TEMPLE” or “DWELLING PLACE OF GOD” and that God lives in his people and if we “DEFILE” ourselves (just like unbelievers defile themselves) God will “DESTROY” as we are God’s DWELLING PLACE are meant to be “HOLY” (free from practicing sin). To defile in context to HOLY means to SIN (knowingly break God’s commandments)

[18], LET NO MAN DECEIVE HIMSELF. IF ANY MAN AMONG YOU SEEMS TO BE WISE IN THIS WORLD, LET HIM BECOME A FOOL, THAT HE MAY BE WISE.

[19], For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness.

So BOOM... the context shown here proves your interpretation of the scriptures in error.

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Now let’s simply post the meaning of “DESTRUCTION” from the Greek to finish this up before providing a closing conclusion…

φθερεῖ] placed immediately after φθείρει at the head of the apodosis, to express with emphasis the adequacy of the recompense. See Kühner, II. p. 626. What φθερεῖ denotes is the temporal destruction, the punishment of death which God will bring upon the destroyer of His temple, as in the LXX. φθείρω is often used of God as inflicting such destruction. Comp Genesis 6:13; Micah 2:10; 1 Kings 2:27, al[553]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5351: φθείρω

φθείρω; future φθερῶ; 1 aorist ἐφθειρα; passive, present φθείρομαι; 2 aorist ἐφθάρην; 2 future φθαρήσομαι; (akin to German verderben); the Sept. for שִׁחֵת; (from Homer down); to corrupt, to destroy: properly, τόν ναόν τοῦ Θεοῦ (in the opinion of the Jews the temple was corrupted, or 'destroyed', when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties; cf. Deyling, Observations, sacrae, vol. ii, p. 505ff), dropping the figure, to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide, 1 Corinthians 3:17a; τινα, to punish with death, 1 Corinthians 3:17{b}; equivalent to bring to want or beggary (cf. our ruin (A. V. corrupt)), 2 Corinthians 7:2; passive, to be destroyed, to perish: ἐν τίνι, by a thing, Jude 1:10; ἐν with a dative denoting the condition, ἐν τῇ φθορά αὐτῶν, 2 Peter 2:12 L T Tr WH. in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave: φθείρουσιν ἔθη χρηστά ὁμιλίαι κακαί (a saying of Menander (see ἦθος, 2), which seems to have passed into a proverb (see Wetstein at the passage; Gataker, Advers. misc. l. i. c. 1, p. 174f)), 1 Corinthians 15:33; the character of the inhabitants of the earth, Revelation 19:2; passive, φθείρομαι ἀπό τίνος, to be so corrupted as to fall away from a thing (see ἀπό, I. 3 d.), 2 Corinthians 11:3; φθειρόμενον κατά τάς ἐπιθυμίας (R. V. waxeth corrupt etc.), Ephesians 4:22. (Compare: διαφθείρω, καταφθείρω.)

To be DESTROYED means to perish and punish with death!

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CONCLUSION: The subject matter and context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-15 is
the work of “BELIEVERS” spreading the gospel who are building on the foundation of Christ. Everyones work of spreading the gospel commission will be tested with fire some will bear fruit and others will suffer loss (were not successful in bringing people to Christ and building up the Church). Though these people may not have had much success in building up the Church because they built on the FOUNDATION OF CHRIST v11 they will be saved! The scripture in v15 is therefore talking about "BELIEVERS" whose "FOUNDATION" is Christ who are saved. There is no mention here about the wicked who do not believe and live in unrepentant sin so your interpretation here is proven to be nonsense.

DESTRUCTION in the GREEK here means punishment by DEATH to be DESTROYED and PERISH!.

Sorry dear friend. It seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this is helpful.

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ClementofA said:

Such as you do in your post i am replying to & many other of your posts.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. And post Scripture only without adding any of your comments, opinions & "second hand information from the teachings of men."

Do as i say, not as i do. Double standard.

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ClementofA said:

Nothing there supports the annihilationist opinion that the Greek word must mean endless annihilation.
OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

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