THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[ClementofA]

OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[mmksparbud]

"When they (the wicked) die, they stay dead".

No, they don't stay dead. Read Daniel 12 & John 5.

As for Lincoln, he's not Love Omnipotent, so he had no power to raise the dead. The Creator does & will, for He is good, not an eternal annihilating monster worse than Hitler.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

No biggie---All you have to do is provide the verse that states God will bring those ashes back to life. Where is the verse that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Christ.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

 

[mmksparbud]

OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart



Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Take it up with God---He says the wages of sin is death. He did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate oif the tree they would get a bath in the lake of fire.

 

[ClementofA]

Do you have the scriptures yet that prove that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

Why would i want to show you such scriptures? It is evident by the very asking of the question that you are confused & have no clue what i believe!

 

[mmksparbud]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

If you oppose this judgement from God---you stand in opposition to the sovereignty of God and you are either for Him or against Him! There is no 3rd choice.

Mat_12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

[ClementofA]

Ok where are the scriptures that say that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

I already gave them to you & you rejected them. Here's some Q's for you:

OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[LoveGodsWord]

OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart



Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Look dear friend instead of trying to spam this thread with your website junk please try and have a conversation with me. I am contending that these scriptures provided below teach that the wicked are DESTROYED at the second coming. I am also contending that the wicked, who remain wicked after the second coming will not ENTER INTO GOD'S KINGDOM. For my proof I have provided the following scriptures...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

Yep not looking to good for some come 2nd coming when God takes VENGENCE and DESTROYS the wicked now right?

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Yep looks like Paul and JESUS are in agreement here, not looking to good for the wicked. The GREEK Word used here for "DEVOUR" meaning the "FIREY INDIGNATION OF GOD will eat up and consume the wicked agreeing with 1 THESSALONIAN 1:9 "DESTRUCTION" or the wicked through God's "VENGENCE" at the second coming.

We can go back to the words of JESUS again if you like if your still unsure....

MATTHEW 25:31:41 [31], WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, THEN SHALL HE SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY:
[32], AND BEFORE HIM SHALL BE GATHERED ALL NATIONS: AND HE SHALL SEPARATE THEM ONE FROM ANOTHER, AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDES HIS SHEEP FROM THE GOATS:
[33], AND HE SHALL SET THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT HAND, BUT THE GOATS ON THE LEFT.
[34], THEN SHALL THE KING SAY TO THEM ON HIS RIGHT HAND, COME, YOU BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD [35], For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: [36], Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37], Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? [38], When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? [39], Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you? [40], And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me. [41], THEN SHALL HE SAY ALSO TO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

The above show that the wicked receive the same punishment at the devil and his Angels (second death).

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Yep no coming out of that one. This is where all those who are not found in God's book of life are found...

REVELATION 20:14-15 [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. [15], AND WHOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Yep not looking to good for some come judgement day. Looks like God's Words are true when he says...

EZEKIEL 18:4 [4], BEHOLD, ALL SOULS ARE MINE; AS THE SOUL OF THE FATHER, SO ALSO THE SOUL OF THE SON IS MINE: THE SOUL THAT SINS, IT SHALL DIE.

There are many more we can finish with some words of JESUS here...

MATTHEW 7:21-23
[21], NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAID TO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK SIN.

.............

NOW, I propose that the above are evidence that the wicked are DESTROYED AT THE SECOND COMING and that THE WICKED DO NOT ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

Now I am asking you this. WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE PROOF or WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT THE WICKED ENTER INTO GOD'S KINGDOM WHO ARE STILL WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING?

Do you understand my question now dear friend? OK please post me scripture that says that all those who are still wicked and have not accepted JESUS after the second coming get a second chance and enter into God's kingdom and are not destroyed.

I will wait .. thanks.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why would i want to show you such scriptures? It is evident by the very asking of the question that you are confused & have no clue what i believe!

You can't produce them for they do not exist and you stand in opposition to the stated will of God. That is all there is to it. It's your choice and therefore you end up with this:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[ClementofA]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

If you oppose this judgement from God---you stand in opposition to the sovereignty of God and you are either for Him or against Him! There is no 3rd choice.

Re Mal. 4 do you think this is talking about the LOF:

3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.

The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the
words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if you believe that the soul lives on after the death of the body.


Malachi 1:11 ESV

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering.
For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.


Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter
and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the
offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22, 26, 28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Basil the Great]

According to one source Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelly, p.485).

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Another source states:

"16. In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell.[24] "

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Perhaps there are others who say otherwise.

It is possible that is was later Church leaders who explained Limbo in more favorable terms. I may have been too generous in my description of Augustine?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Re Mal. 4 do you think this is talking about the LOF:

3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.

The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the
words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if you believe that the soul lives on after the death of the body.


Malachi 1:11 ESV

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering.
For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.


Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter
and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the
offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22, 26, 28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

You have no scripture do you dear friend. WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE PROOF or WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT THE WICKED WILL NOT BE DESTROYED AND ENTER INTO GOD'S KINGDOM WHO ARE STILL WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING? see post # 727 linked

 

[ClementofA]

Look dear friend instead of trying to spam this thread with your website junk please try and have a conversation with me.

Seriously? You keep spamming the same verses repeatedly & generally dismiss or ignore my comments in reply to them as if they are nothing. Additionally you seem not to comprehend much of what i'm posting.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Seriously? You keep spamming the same verses repeatedly & generally dismiss or ignore my comments in reply to them as if they are nothing. Additionally you seem not to comprehend much of what i'm posting.

Yep seriously. I explained my reasons to you in post # 727 linked. Now WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE PROOF or WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT THE WICKED WILL NOT BE DESTROYED AND ENTER INTO GOD'S KINGDOM WHO ARE STILL WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING? see post # 727 linked. You are yet to post a single scripture and this is where your whole argument falls down. I have provided scripture for my claims. Where are yours?

 

[ClementofA]

It's your choice and therefore you end up with this:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is
corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless
punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


---


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is
corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless
punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

If you have no scripture just say so.

 

[ClementofA]

You have no scripture do you dear friend. WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE PROOF or WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT THE WICKED WILL NOT BE DESTROYED AND ENTER INTO GOD'S KINGDOM WHO ARE STILL WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING? see post # 727 linked

I need no such Scripture saying those exact words to prove universalism is the teaching of the Scriptures, as i have done repeatedly in this thread.

Can you comment on these:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I need no such Scripture saying those exact words to prove universalism is the teaching of the Scriptures, as i have done repeatedly in this thread.

Can you comment on these:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

I see. Thankyou. So you admit you have no scripture that says that the wicked that remain wicked after the second coming will get a second chance and enter into God's Kingdom. Well that is a start. At least your being honest now. Does that not worry you with all the scripture posted that disagree with your teachings that show that the those who remain wicked after the second coming will be destroyed and not enter into God's KINGDOM? Can you see what your proposing is against God's Word?

 

[ClementofA]

Can you see what your proposing is against God's Word?

It isn't. Period.

Have a nice night.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

 

[mmksparbud]

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is
corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless
punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


---


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

The best interpretation is that God will do exactly what He says He will do!!! The lake of fire has been prepared for Satan and his followers! It is up to you if you want to be for God or against him. Those who are against Him will be for Satan. There are only those 2 choices-----there is no third choice.

Mat_12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.


2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Your choice---you either awake to your washed robes with Christ for all eternity---or wake up in the 2nd resurrection and end up in the lake of fire for the 2nd death from which no one comes out! Your choice.

 

[ClementofA]

God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!