THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Saint Steven · Apr 30, 2020

JacksBratt said:
If you love someone.. you don't make them endure things that they don't want to endure.

Right... like a forever burning hell with no hope of escape? Who wants to endure that?

Saint Steven · Apr 30, 2020

JacksBratt said:
God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

You can't be serious.

Saint Steven · Apr 30, 2020

JacksBratt said:
... He is talking to those from the tribulation times. Not those saved in the age of grace.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

ClementofA · Apr 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? IF UNIVERSALISM IS TRUE DOES THAT MEAN GOD IS LYING WHEN HE SAYS NOT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED WHO CALL ME LORD LORD

Let's quote the whole verse with the chapter & book reference also:

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.” Matthew‬ ‭7:21

No scripture, including Mt.7:21, say anyones will never be saved. In fact all shall have life, righteousness & God in them (1 Cor.15:28; Rom.5:18-19, etc). God's purpose, according to His own words, is to save the world (Jn.3:17; cf. 4:42). He is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), so the world will be sinless.

In Jesus' earthly mortal ministry He was sent to none but the children of Israel (Mt.15:24), all of whom He shall save (Mt.1:21; 2:7), including those referred to in Mt.7:21:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

According to a number of commentators the "kingdom of the heavens" (Mt.7:21) is associated with Christ's millennial age kingdom. So exclusion from this kingdom would
not mean a person will never be saved.

"The characteristic phrase is “the kingdom of the heavens”. This refers to Daniel's prophecy, “And in the days of these kings the God of the heavens shall set up a
kingdom which shall not be harmed for the eon, and the kingdom shall not be left to another people. It shall crush and terminate all these kingdoms.... (Dan.2:44)." (Concordant Commentary)

Rev.5:10 and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Exodus 19:6
And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Mt.7:21 Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the *one* doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

What is "that day" (Mt.7:22) referring to? Possibly "the kingdom of the heavens" (v.21) itself as the millennial (1000 year) age kingdom of Christ? Peter says 1000 years
(a millennium) is as a "day" to God (2 Pet.3:8) & also speaks of the "day of the age" (2 Pet.3:18):

Young's Literal Translation
2 Pet.3:18) and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.

----------------------

"On your rebuttal theory, Jesus must be saying that no one ever shall enter the kingdom of God, since we’re all sinners who have at some point not done the will of our Father in the heavens but have done injustice instead,...

Nope, don’t try to get around it: Jesus said those who sin shall never, never enter into the kingdom of the heavens, that’s an eternal statement and unless the speaker expressly indicates that there is a limited time frame within which his statement is true we should assume that the statement is eternally true: “X will not happen” must be the same as “X will never happen”. Any other interpretation of such statements changes their meaning.

DON’T TRY TO GET AROUND THE OBVIOUS TOTAL AND HOPELESSLY PERMANENT DAMNATION PREACHED IN THE BIBLE! YOU CAN NEVER EVER EVER BE SAVED FROM YOUR SIN AND ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS!

If your rebuttal was correct in principle, no one could ever be saved.

But I don’t think I’m unbiblically changing the meaning of Jesus’ statement in that verse, if I conclude from other verses (including closely nearby) that Jesus does in fact think people who do not do the will of God can be empowered and led by God to do the will of God and so enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

That’s why I wrote, “No one enters the kingdom of God (== of “the heavens”, a respectful euphamism for God which Matthew usually prefers), who does not do the will of God. Strictly speaking, Jesus doesn’t say there that those who are currently not doing the will of God will never come to do the will of God (and so shall never be entering into the kingdom of the heavens).”...

...what Jesus is talking about. He isn’t talking about doers of injustice as such never-not ever being saved into doing justice and cooperating with the Holy Spirit and honoring the Son and the Father (and the Holy Spirit)."

Saint Steven · Apr 30, 2020

mmksparbud said:
He wanted everyone to have salvation.

An eternal failure then?

ClementofA · Apr 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW WILL BE CHOSEN?

Few chosen. For what? A final destiny of salvation from which the rest (the many others) are forever excluded? No, Paul says "many" (Rom.5:18-19) shall be saved, not "few". And by "the many" he means all fallen human beings:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

ClementofA · Apr 30, 2020

JacksBratt said:
God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

LoveGodsWord · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
Death is no more in the New heavens & earth of the context, not in the lake of fire. We know that because the creation of the new heavens & new earth did not include the lake of fire. So death is not yet abolished everywhere, since it then still will be existing in the LOF.

Hmmm Say What?????

ClementofA said:
1 Cor.15: Verse 23 says "each in his own order": 22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24a then the end,... Three "orders" of resurrection are given: 1. Christ's (v.23) 2. those that are His at His coming (v.23) 3. the end (v.24) (i.e. the rest of humanity) Together #2's & #3 make up the entirety of those "in Adam" (v.22). These will "in Christ" be made alive, as per the parallel of verse 22. And "in Christ" in Scripture indicates salvation. So all "in Adam" will be saved.

Fortunately, no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

it's not just "enemies under His feet" (v.25), but ALL (cf. v.22, ALL) will be in subjection "under His feet":

27a For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.”

The only exception being God:

27b But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted.

Again in v.28 we see - all - in subjection, & here even the Son is in subjection:

28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:23-26 says [23], But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING. [24], THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25], FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HAS PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. [26], THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.

If you read the scriptures here dear friend you will see that...

1. JESUS represents the first of the resurrection of the dead (Feast of First fruits) *LEVITICUS 23:30 [v23]
2. Afterwards those that have accepted JESUS resurrected from the dead at the 2nd coming [23] see also 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-18.
3. Now notice v25 All his enemies (the wicked) are under his feet. DESTROYED at the second coming by God's vengence *2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 (reference to the second coming)
4. Finally death is destroyed for the righteous. There is no more death for God's SAINTS who are resurrected in Christ!

Did you catch that? NO MORE DEATH AFTER THE WICKED ARE DESTROYED!

ClementofA said:
All in all. See again v.22 "all". 1 Cor.15:22-28 takes us beyond Revelation 20-22:
"In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have: No more rule No more authority No more power No more enemies No more reigning All subjected No more death, death destroyed. All made alive, immortal

Red emphasis mine. Say what??? Where does it say in CORINTHIANS 15:22-28 that "ALL THE WICKED AND THE RIGHTEOUS ARE MADE ALIVE TO RECEIVE EVERLASTING LIFE? Here let me post the scriptures and perhaps you can show me...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:23-26
[23], But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.
[24], THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25], FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HAS PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.
[26], THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.
[27], For he has put all things under his feet. But when he said all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28], And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You dear friend ADDED in All made alive, immortal which is no where in the scriptures.

ClementofA said:
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have: Still rule (20:6; 22:5) Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5) Authority (21:24,25) Power (21:24,25; 22:2 Kings (21:24-26) Saints reign (22:5) Second death still exists (21:5) The nations still mortal (22:2)"

Red emphasis mine. Say what??? The scriptures do not match what your claiming, please check your references.

ClementofA said:
"AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive. BUT each in his own order:1. Christ the Firstfruit; 2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming; 3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power. For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.). …But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception, rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at different times.

Red emphasis mine. Your adding to the scriptures again that is not written in the scriptures. Did you not read REVELATION 22:18-19 [18], For I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book: [19], And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Does this not worry you?

ClementofA said:
There is still reigning after people experience the second death: "Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages" (Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes, rule, authority, and power are still present on the New Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

REVELATION 22:1-7 says
[1], And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[2], In the middle of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[3], And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4], And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
[5], And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
[6], And he said to me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show to his servants the things which must shortly be done.
[7], Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

REVELATION 21:23-24[23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. [24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEN WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

This is JOHN seeing a vision of what happens after the second coming for God's people who reign with God. There is no mention of the wicked here reigning with God. What are you talking about? Even REVELATION 21:24 is in CONTEXT to the SAVED rightesouss who are God's saints NOT THE WICKED!

ClementofA said:
Death is not abolished while there is still reigning: 1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore death is not abolished with people still dead in the lake of fire. And this is yet to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The LOF is second death. When that death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) then God will become "All in all" (v.28) including everyone who was ever in Adam (v.22), i.e. universal salvation.
Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Here is where the rest of your post falls over. The reigning as shown in the previous section was a vision given by JOHN of the RIGHTEOUS SAINTS NOT THE WICKED. The scriptures provided above only prove what is shared with you. Your trying to add to the scriptures what they do not say dear friend you should consider carefully REVELATION 22:18-19 [18], For I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book: [19], And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Hope this helps.

Oldmantook · Apr 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Everything you have asked has been answered here in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked. What is it you claim I have not answered? For me I find it quite revealing you have not addressed these posts and the scriptures in them showing your claims to be in error by leaving out context.

Context is to REVELATION 22:11-15, JESUS making the proclaimation [11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME TO GIVE TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE.

The rewards for God's saint who keep His commandments *REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 22:14 and those of the wicked *REVELATION 22:12 and REVELATION 22:15.

The reward of the righteous saints..

REVELATION 22:14 [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Then the reward of the wicked here...

[15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE.

Context matters dear friend and this is what you have left out.

Hope this is helpful.

Actually not helpful at all. I could have missed it but I do not see anywhere in your posts that you have addressed the fact that since the saints ARE ALREADY IN THE CITY, how can you claim that they are the same ones who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city gates. The saints in the city already have their reward. Your reply is no where to be found.

a-lily-of-peace · Apr 30, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Being cut off is not necessarily a bad thing in scripture, it's brought to us by the number 7 and the letter Zayin. As in 'I have not come to bring peace, but a sword'. To cut the chains to our old worldly identity. It's the part of the journey from the aleph to the tav. Just zayin'.

I think we are looking at different things?

Let me know if you want me to pull up research for this because I’m just sort of typing it. I think you’re looking at the individual soul as the whole, and the pruning being the removal of sin? That I think would be the pruning of the branch.

But the pruning of the tree is where you consider the whole to be the body of Adam (one creature, one breath, severely pruned at the time of Noah) or the body of Christ (one Spirit, we abide in Him) and getting cut off from the second isn’t a removal of sin but a removal of life.

The examples of things that are actually entirely lawful: an education, a job, living in a certain city. None of these things are in themselves bad, but they will only bear fruit if you live them out while abiding in Christ.

So the thought of being cut off from Christ is horrifying and again in context my replies were to it being treated so trivially like stoning isn’t so bad and missing the actual warning in the passage.

ClementofA · Apr 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your trying to add to the scriptures what they do not say dear friend you should consider carefully REVELATION 22:18-19 [18], For I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book: [19], And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

ClementofA · Apr 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
IS OUR SALVATION DETERMINED BEFORE THE 2ND COMING OR AFTER?

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Our salvation is determined before the 2nd coming...

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means:
yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after
all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after
all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also
appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their
sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous”
who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous,
unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life
coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem.

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.) [/
quote]

Filthy Still??

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Basil the Great · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
Fables? Like ECT & annihilationism?

That passage is well applied to those who love the idea of a monster-god who torments many of his creatures for all the endless ages of eternity:

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands,
sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Their - pathologically - "itching ears" do "gather around them a great number of teachers to say what" they "want to hear" to "suit their own (patholigical) desires". Compare, for example, the KKK, the Pharisees, & the like, of which there are many millions.

2 Tim.4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own DESIRES. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to MYTHS.

Myths? There are various endless punishment "myths", e.g. those believed by most Muslims, those believed by some Jews, various types believed in by various Christian denominations. Some even think aborted babies will be burning forever.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Fables. Myths. Like endless torments as described by the likes of Jonathan Edwards & the Christ rejecting Jews (e.g. the Pharisees), to try to control the masses - & their bank accounts - with fear.

I have never heard of anyone who thinks that aborted babies will burn forever. You are probably referring to Augustine's position, widely held among Catholics until recently, though never definitively taught by the Catholic Church, that the unbaptized babies go to Limbo. Early Church Father Augustine taught that Limbo was not a bad place, but still not equal to Heaven. Limbo has often been referred to as the Outer Edge of Hell, but that description seems misleading, as it supposedly was/is not a place of torture or torment, but rather a place of natural happiness.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
Let's quote the whole verse with the chapter & book reference also: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.” Matthew‬ ‭7:21 No scripture, including Mt.7:21, say anyones will never be saved.

Sure they do you just quoted one. What part of "NOT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ME LORD LORD WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" Did you not understand *MATTHEW 7:21?

Then we have many other scriptures. A few posted here...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

Yep not looking to good for some come 2nd coming when God takes VENGENCE and DESTROYS the wicked now right?

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Yep looks like Paul and JESUS are in agreement here, not looking to good for the wicked. The GREEK Word used here for "DEVOUR" meaning the "FIREY INDIGNATION OF GOD will eat up and consume the wicked agreeing with 1 THESSALONIAN 1:9 "DESTRUCTION" or the wicked through God's "VENGENCE" at the second coming.

We can go back to the words of JESUS again if you like if your still unsure....

MATTHEW 25:31:41 [31], WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, THEN SHALL HE SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY:
[32], AND BEFORE HIM SHALL BE GATHERED ALL NATIONS: AND HE SHALL SEPARATE THEM ONE FROM ANOTHER, AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDES HIS SHEEP FROM THE GOATS:
[33], AND HE SHALL SET THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT HAND, BUT THE GOATS ON THE LEFT.
[34], THEN SHALL THE KING SAY TO THEM ON HIS RIGHT HAND, COME, YOU BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD [35], For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: [36], Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37], Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? [38], When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? [39], Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you? [40], And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me. [41], THEN SHALL HE SAY ALSO TO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

The above show that the wicked receive the same punishment at the devil and his Angels (second death).

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Yep no coming out of that one. This is where all those who are not found in God's book of life are found...

REVELATION 20:14-15 [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. [15], AND WHOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Yep not looking to good for some come judgement day. Looks like God's Words are true when he says...

EZEKIEL 18:4 [4], BEHOLD, ALL SOULS ARE MINE; AS THE SOUL OF THE FATHER, SO ALSO THE SOUL OF THE SON IS MINE: THE SOUL THAT SINS, IT SHALL DIE.

Yep looks like death is coming for the wicked according to the scriptures. Seems like God's Word disagrees with you dear friend.

ClementofA said:
In fact all shall have life, righteousness & God in them (1 Cor.15:28; Rom.5:18-19, etc). God's purpose, according to His own words, is to save the world (Jn.3:17; cf. 4:42). He is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), so the world will be sinless.

Yep indeed for those who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb and accept God's free gift of salvation through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8. Those who do not are unbelievers and are condemned already because they did not believe in the only begotted son of God that they might be saved *JOHN 3:16-21. The world will indeed be sinless. There will not be any wicked there. They will be desrtoyed at the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:13-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 22:11-12.

ClementofA said:
In Jesus' earthly mortal ministry He was sent to none but the children of Israel (Mt.15:24), all of whom He shall save (Mt.1:21; 2:7), including those referred to in Mt.7:21: Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel. The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc. BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning: Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10) ccording to a number of commentators the "kingdom of the heavens" (Mt.7:21) is associated with Christ's millennial age kingdom. So exclusion from this kingdom would not mean a person will never be saved.

Nonsense dear friend. God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant scriptures are now all those who believe and follow God's Word * EPHESIANS 2:11-14; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10. Gentile believers are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. The wicked are excluded from God's kingdom. In fact JESUS specifically says they do not enter into God's KINGDOM in MATTHEW 7:21-26; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 22:11-12. Sorry dear friend seems God's Word disagrees with you.

ClementofA said:
"The characteristic phrase is “the kingdom of the heavens”. This refers to Daniel's prophecy, “And in the days of these kings the God of the heavens shall set up a kingdom which shall not be harmed for the eon, and the kingdom shall not be left to another people. It shall crush and terminate all these kingdoms.... (Dan.2:44)." (Concordant Commentary)

Rev.5:10 and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Exodus 19:6
And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Yep all these scriptures are in reference to God's saints. Where does it say these are references to the wicked? - Yep NOWHERE!

ClementofA said:
Mt.7:21 Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the *one* doing the will of My Father in the heavens. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
What is "that day" (Mt.7:22) referring to? Possibly "the kingdom of the heavens" (v.21) itself as the millennial (1000 year) age kingdom of Christ? Peter says 1000 years
(a millennium) is as a "day" to God (2 Pet.3:8) & also speaks of the "day of the age" (2 Pet.3:18):

The scripture does not say "HEAVENS" MATTHEW 7:21 [21], NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAID TO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. So your simply wrong again trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures are not saying again.

ClementofA said:
"On your rebuttal theory, Jesus must be saying that no one ever shall enter the kingdom of God, since we’re all sinners who have at some point not done the will of our Father in the heavens but have done injustice instead,... Nope, don’t try to get around it: Jesus said those who sin shall never, never enter into the kingdom of the heavens, that’s an eternal statement and unless the speaker expressly indicates that there is a limited time frame within which his statement is true we should assume that the statement is eternally true: “X will not happen” must be the same as “X will never happen”. Any other interpretation of such statements changes their meaning. DON’T TRY TO GET AROUND THE OBVIOUS TOTAL AND HOPELESSLY PERMANENT DAMNATION PREACHED IN THE BIBLE! YOU CAN NEVER EVER EVER BE SAVED FROM YOUR SIN AND ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS!

If your rebuttal was correct in principle, no one could ever be saved.

But I don’t think I’m unbiblically changing the meaning of Jesus’ statement in that verse, if I conclude from other verses (including closely nearby) that Jesus does in fact think people who do not do the will of God can be empowered and led by God to do the will of God and so enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

That’s why I wrote, “No one enters the kingdom of God (== of “the heavens”, a respectful euphamism for God which Matthew usually prefers), who does not do the will of God. Strictly speaking, Jesus doesn’t say there that those who are currently not doing the will of God will never come to do the will of God (and so shall never be entering into the kingdom of the heavens).”...

...what Jesus is talking about. He isn’t talking about doers of injustice as such never-not ever being saved into doing justice and cooperating with the Holy Spirit and honoring the Son and the Father (and the Holy Spirit)."

Oh what nonsense. I have said no such thing. I have only posted scripture showing that those who believe and accept JESUS as their personal Lord and Saviour will be saved and enter God's Kingdom. Those who do not and remain in their sins according to the scriptures already provided which are God's Word not mine say the wicked will by destroyed and do not enter God's Kingdom.

Sorry dear friend. It seems God's Word disagrees with you. Does this not worry you? It should as your adding the book of REVELATION what it does not say or teach. Please be read REVELATION 22:18-19. Take the Word of God as a blessing. It is a blessing to all those who believe and follow it and a curse to those who do not.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 30, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Actually not helpful at all. I could have missed it but I do not see anywhere in your posts that you have addressed the fact that since the saints ARE ALREADY IN THE CITY, how can you claim that they are the same ones who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city gates. The saints in the city already have their reward. Your reply is no where to be found.

Hell dear friend. Prayerfully re-read REVELATION 22.

REVELATION 22:1-10 is in reference to JOHN receiving a vision of Heaven that God has prepared for the Saints who will reign with God. The prophecy is sealed but not yet it is soon to come to pass.

REVELATION 22:11-15 is in context to JESUS making the proclaimation after the vision is sealed up in v10 and then JESUS says [11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME TO GIVE TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE.

Context here is AFTER THE VISION has been shut up of HEAVEN in REVELATION 22:1-10 which then goes on to describe the rewards of the saints and the wicked. The rewards for God's saint who keep His commandments *REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 22:14 and those of the wicked *REVELATION 22:12 and REVELATION 22:15.

As shown earlier the reward of the righteous saints are shown here...

REVELATION 22:14 [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Then the reward of the wicked here...

[15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE.

Context matter. You may have to prayerfull re-read REVELATION 22.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
Be filthy...still...but not forever.
"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9." Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

Goodness what a waste of my time. Please show me a single scripture you have posted here that says that the wicked will receive eternal life? - Yep there is none. I checked.

Now please explain these scriptures stating that the wicked do not enter God's Kingdom and are destroyed at the second coming...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

Yep not looking to good for some come 2nd coming when God takes VENGENCE and DESTROYS the wicked now right?

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Yep looks like Paul and JESUS are in agreement here, not looking to good for the wicked. The GREEK Word used here for "DEVOUR" meaning the "FIREY INDIGNATION OF GOD will eat up and consume the wicked agreeing with 1 THESSALONIAN 1:9 "DESTRUCTION" or the wicked through God's "VENGENCE" at the second coming.

We can go back to the words of JESUS again if you like if your still unsure....

MATTHEW 25:31:41 [31], WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, THEN SHALL HE SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY:
[32], AND BEFORE HIM SHALL BE GATHERED ALL NATIONS: AND HE SHALL SEPARATE THEM ONE FROM ANOTHER, AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDES HIS SHEEP FROM THE GOATS:
[33], AND HE SHALL SET THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT HAND, BUT THE GOATS ON THE LEFT.
[34], THEN SHALL THE KING SAY TO THEM ON HIS RIGHT HAND, COME, YOU BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD [35], For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: [36], Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37], Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? [38], When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? [39], Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you? [40], And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me. [41], THEN SHALL HE SAY ALSO TO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

The above show that the wicked receive the same punishment at the devil and his Angels (second death).

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Yep no coming out of that one. This is where all those who are not found in God's book of life are found...

REVELATION 20:14-15 [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. [15], AND WHOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Yep not looking to good for some come judgement day. Looks like God's Words are true when he says...

EZEKIEL 18:4 [4], BEHOLD, ALL SOULS ARE MINE; AS THE SOUL OF THE FATHER, SO ALSO THE SOUL OF THE SON IS MINE: THE SOUL THAT SINS, IT SHALL DIE.

Let's finish off with the words of JESUS..

MATTHEW 7:21-23
[21], NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAID TO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK SIN.

Seems God's Word disagrees with you dear friend. May you receive his Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make it disappear. As shown above in the scriptures and not my words there is no second chances for the wicked at the second coming only God's judgement and death.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmker.org/books/hope_beond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

All your doing here is spamming website stuff and peoples opinions. There is no where in your post and no scripture that you have provided here that says that the wicked get a second chance at eternal life. Can you show me here in what you posted above where is the scripture that says that the wicked God to heaven receive a second chance and receive eternal life? There is none I checked.The scriptures you posted was in reference to the wicked who receive the gospel pre second coming so not relevant to my questions to you.

What you are providing here denies Gods' Word that teaches that the wicked are destroyed at the second coming here.. *2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:13-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 20:14-15; REVELATION 22:11-12.

Now the above dear friend are God's Word not my words. You have provided no scripture that says the wicked have second chances or that the wicked go to heaven. The scripture provided here state that the wicked are destroyed at the second coming and do not enter God's kingdom. Let me know when you find the scripture. Until then all I can see is your opinion and the opinions of men you are pointing everyone to that denies the very Words of God as shown above.

Hope this helps

mmksparbud · Apr 30, 2020

Saint Steven said:
An eternal failure then?

If you think God is a failure----you will have to take that up with Him---I don't think He is. If that is how you feel, you don't have to worry, you will not be amongst those who spend eternity with Him. He only wants those who freely choose to love and obey Him

mmksparbud · Apr 30, 2020

ClementofA said:
Death is no more in the New heavens & earth of the context, not in the lake of fire. We know that because the creation of the new heavens & new earth did not include the lake of fire. So death is not yet abolished everywhere, since it then still will be existing in the LOF.

1 Cor.15: Verse 23 says "each in his own order":

22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24a then the end,...

Three "orders" of resurrection are given:

1. Christ's (v.23)
2. those that are His at His coming (v.23)
3. the end (v.24) (i.e. the rest of humanity)

Together #2's & #3 make up the entirety of those "in Adam" (v.22). These will "in Christ" be made alive, as per the parallel of verse 22. And "in Christ" in Scripture indicates salvation. So all "in Adam" will be saved.

Fortunately, no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

it's not just "enemies under His feet" (v.25), but ALL (cf. v.22, ALL) will be in subjection "under His feet":

27a For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.”

The only exception being God:

27b But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted.

Again in v.28 we see - all - in subjection, & here even the Son is in subjection:

28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

All in all. See again v.22 "all".

1 Cor.15:22-28 takes us beyond Revelation 20-22:

"In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:

• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)"

An Analytical Study of Words | Love Wins Because God Is Love…

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;
2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;
3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

…But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days after His death.
2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.
3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom.

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

There is still reigning after people experience the second death:

"Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

Death is not abolished while there is still reigning:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore death is not abolished with people still dead in the lake of fire. And this is yet to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The LOF is second death. When that death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) then God will become "All in all" (v.28) including everyone who was ever in Adam (v.22), i.e. universal salvation.
Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

You certainly are free to believe whatever nonsense you want. Bottom line---not one single verse says the wicked will inherit eternal life---not one verse states anyone comes out of the lake of fire. God is sovereign---He does what He says He will do. You can believe otherwise all you want, it will not make your scenario work the way you want it to. It is God who states the terms of salvation, not us. You have proved nothing from scripture that the lost are given eternal life with Him, no verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire after they are ashes----

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

God always does what He says.

Saint Steven · Apr 30, 2020

mmksparbud said:
If you think God is a failure----you will have to take that up with Him---I don't think He is. If that is how you feel, you don't have to worry, you will not be amongst those who spend eternity with Him. He only wants those who freely choose to love and obey Him

That was uncalled for.

Here's what you wrote. (below at the bottom) Did he succeed or fail?
It is you who believe he failed. Universal Restorationists believe he didn't fail.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

mmksparbud said: ↑
He wanted everyone to have salvation.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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