THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Shrewd Manager said:

How about 'Take the vaccine or lose your privileges'?

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G5331 - pharmakeia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

I don’t know is my honest answer.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

Yes to the shadows of what is to come and honestly if you want to make a topic about that it would be a really great conversation.

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The point of it for these purposes is that the Day of the Lord is about a just and equitable redistribution of property, and not 'Believers go upstairs, others downstairs'.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

At the same time since this is a topic about destruction, Deuteronomy 9:3-5.

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Right, the sinful parts will be flushed out. For the very corrupt it is hard to see what might be left. But God a bruised reed will not break nor a smouldering wick snuff out.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

And in context, Matthew 1:21 and John 10:16, he will save his people.

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Jesus is the saviour of the whole world. All things were made through him (Jn 1:3). And all things will be put under his feet (1 Cor 15:27).

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

I am so grateful that I was counted as one of those lost that I don’t want to then turn around and deny anyone the same glorious grace of repentance that let me come home.

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Amen.

I don’t want to lose my inheritance by thinking it doesn’t matter, but I don’t want to deny mercy to anyone else.

His kingdom come, His will be done.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

I don’t want to lose my inheritance by thinking it doesn’t matter, but I don’t want to deny mercy to anyone else.

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It always matters. The stakes are high as it is. For universalists the LoF is more like a hospital. If the patient has been hit by a Mack truck (ie is ravaged by a life of sinning), then all the surgery and recovery is going to be terrible, let alone the possibility they might never fully recover. (Of course they will, but if you really wanted to scare them!)

But the true Gospel never needs threats, it's a case of conveying to them the good news of salvation and the trustworthy and true God who'll go all the way for you, it's the reason for hope in your heart - and let God do the rest. Why do we have to strong-arm them, it brings the divine gospel to earth with a thud and is mostly counter-productive anyway?

Shrewd Manager said:

It always matters. The stakes are high as it is. For universalists the LoF is more like a hospital. If the patient has been hit by a Mack truck (ie is ravaged by a life of sinning), then all the surgery and recovery is going to be terrible, let alone the possibility they might never fully recover. (Of course they will, but if you really wanted to scare them!)

But the true Gospel never needs threats, it's a case of conveying to them the good news of salvation and the trustworthy and true God who'll go all the way for you, it's the reason for hope in your heart - and let God do the rest. Why do we have to strong-arm them, it brings the divine gospel to earth with a thud and is mostly counter-productive anyway?

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I’m actually a terrible evangelist because I don’t feel the need to convert anyone since Jesus already said he won’t lose a single one. I feel more comfortable focusing on being that representative and happily telling people I’m a Christian but I don’t actually know how to preach at all.

I think for now we can agree that neither of us can say for absolute certainty if anything comes out of the lake of fire at all and maybe even agree that everything destroyed by it is worth keeping destroyed?

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

I think that’s a fair interpretation of human history, but not of scripture. You also run the risk of going too far in the opposite direction, preaching peace, peace, but at the first line of questions you couldn’t even assert to me with confidence that anything would be left of a person after the fire. That won’t stand when the person really gets tested.

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

I’m actually a terrible evangelist because I don’t feel the need to convert anyone since Jesus already said he won’t lose a single one. I feel more comfortable focusing on being that representative and happily telling people I’m a Christian but I don’t actually know how to preach at all.

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Well, why all the fuss earlier then lol?

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

I think for now we can agree that neither of us can say for absolute certainty if anything comes out of the lake of fire at all and maybe even agree that everything destroyed by it is worth keeping destroyed?

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Revelation teaches that the nations emerge from the fire, and together with the kings of the earth who were killed with the sword from Jesus' mouth, they bring their glory and gifts to the throne (Rev 21:24-26), and the nations get healing from the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

Shrewd Manager said:

Well, why all the fuss earlier then lol?



Revelation teaches that the nations emerge from the fire, and together with the kings of the earth who were killed with the sword from Jesus' mouth, they bring their glory and gifts to the throne (Rev 21:24-26), and the nations get healing from the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

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Because the truth is still the truth, and whatever displays through me on the outside has to be right on the inside because until I’m actually perfect I have to continue to be perfected.

Also Revelation 21:24 in my translation says “the nations of those who are saved” and Revelation 21:27 only says those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:24-27, NKJV)

LoveGodsWord said:

It is not about getting something right or wrong dear Shrewd. It is about turning away from putting our trust in the teachings of men and prayerfully seeking God for His truth through His Word. I think I was able to show you what true love is to me in the very post you were quoting from but it seems you did not pick up on God's message of love in His mercy and love for mankind in sending his Son to fulfill God's justice and judgement for the sins of all mankind.

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True love does not have a 'use by' date, God's love doesn't expire when you do. That wouldn't be love at all, it would be psycho stuff. Could you say of a beloved relative who died, that you could stop loving them after they died? Of course not, it's absurd.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your doctrine dear Shrewd, denies the love of God and makes a mockery of the death of JESUS seen at calvery.

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How so?

LoveGodsWord said:

Yet it seems you close your eyes to the cross (God's justice and judgement) and do not understand God or his plan of redemption for all mankind.

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So God will redeem all mankind?

LoveGodsWord said:

If there was no justice and judgement for sin JESUS would not have had to die for us. Yet you do not seem to see this.

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I do see it, but I suggest you fail to draw the critical distinction between SIN and the SINNER. The first is God's enemy, the second is God's creature that needs deliverance.

LoveGodsWord said:

Those who do not lay hold of God's grace through faith have to bare the consequences for their own sins come judgement day.

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That's right, if they still haven't repented during the Trib, they won't be in the Lamb's Book of Life, so they'll need a bath in the LoF in order to purify them. Give them all the best help to overcome their afflictions and addictions.

LoveGodsWord said:

God is a God of love and mercy to all those who hear and follow him and a God of justice and judgement to those who do not and reject the gift of God's dear son. There is no second chances at the second coming dear friend only justice and judgement. While those who are written in the lambs book of life have already received Love and Mercy.

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Well, if Love and Mercy quit on you, then it's not true love or mercy, no matter how you capitalise it and give it a veneer of respectability. God doesn't let ppl jump off a cliff to spite Him, unless He knows He can restore them.

LoveGodsWord said:

Funny thing though it is in God justice that God's love is more perfectly revealed in God's dear son to all mankind, but you choose not to see this.

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I am familiar with the conventional protestant/ evangelical position on penal substitutionary atonement. I just happen to reject it because it's rubbish. How is justice served if Jesus takes the rap for my crime of say bashing your dog? It's untenable.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

Also Revelation 21:24 in my translation says “the nations of those who are saved” and Revelation 21:27 only says those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

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Not this again. Most versions do not include the words 'of those who are saved', and most scholars agree that the original manuscripts don't reflect it. More importantly, it is incongruous with the promise of Rev 15:4, from the song of Moses and the Lamb:

Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.

So the HS was wise enough to ensure that any tinkering with the text later on would be exposed as a sham.

LoveGodsWord said:

Oh goodness dear Fine what waffle. The Koine Greek agrees with 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
it seems your understanding of it does not however. I asked you in the last post to show me where it says in your commentary that 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 does not mean that the wicked will not be destroyed at the second coming and that the wicked will not be destroyed by God's fiery vengence when he returns? I am happy to wait for you to show me but there is nothing written there. Yet here I am still waiting? It is God's Word that says that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. This you cannot deny unless you deny God's very Words to believe the gambling lady of second chances.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY. Yep no more second chances..

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9

New International Version
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

New Living Translation
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

English Standard Version
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New American Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New King James Version
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Christian Standard Bible
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from his glorious strength

Contemporary English Version
Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

Good News Translation
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

International Standard Version
Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

NET Bible
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

New Heart English Bible
who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For they will be paid in judgment: eternal destruction from the face of our Lord and from the glory of his power,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

New American Standard 1977
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James 2000 Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American King James Version
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American Standard Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Darby Bible Translation
who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

English Revised Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Weymouth New Testament
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

World English Bible
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Young's Literal Translation
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

............

As posted earlier eternal (αἰώνιον; aiōnion) destruction (ὄλεθρον; olethron) is not changed in the overall conext to the meaning of the scripture which is the destruction of the wicked at the second coming.

Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances and the teachings of men that lead us away from the Word of God as there is no more second chances at the second coming dear Fine.

Hope this helps

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That, 'bout says it all!

Shrewd Manager said:

Not this again. Most versions do not include the words 'of those who are saved', and most scholars agree that the original manuscripts don't reflect it. More importantly, it is incongruous with the promise of Rev 15:4, from the song of Moses and the Lamb:

Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.

So the HS was wise enough to ensure that any tinkering with the text later on would be exposed as a sham.

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If it’s added, God will judge, but even so it doesn’t conflict with Revelation 21:27, and even depending on how you read it, it could mean the same thing, because it’s like saying “all people will come” vs “all people who are alive will come” where even the first could have the implication that all people who come must actually be alive.

a-lily-in-the-valley said:

If it’s added, God will judge, but even so it doesn’t conflict with Revelation 21:27, and even depending on how you read it, it could mean the same thing, because it’s like saying “all people will come” vs “all people who are alive will come” where even the first could have the implication that all people who come must actually be alive.

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Ok, have it your own way, God kills everyone who disagrees with him, like a tinpot third world dictator. Just 'the elect' are invited in.

Don't mind the fact he promised Abraham that all nations would be blessed, or that death and Hades just gave up their dead to be judged in 20:9.

Shrewd Manager said:

Well, I preach the gospel because it's good news. No matter how you dress it up, threatening ppl with eternal damnation ain't good news, it's spiritual abuse and psychological manipulation. And should be illegal even under common law imho.

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Ah yes... because breaking the law, any law, should have no consequences....


So, why have the law?

Shrewd Manager said:

I evangelise because I want ppl to be free from their bondage to sin and glorify God.

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Why? Why bother.. What is the worry of the "bondage" of sin if, after we die... it matters not?

Glorifying God is all well and good. But if we all go to eternal glory it matters about as much as cheering for your favorite football team...

Shrewd Manager said:

This can only happen if they trust in God. It's just not possible to trust someone who you believe might torture you forever.

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Trust in God for what? That He will save me? That He will save everyone? Just what do I have to trust in God for if you say that everyone is going to live in paradise anyway?

Shrewd Manager said:

I give testimony in an effort to plant the seed that God is good beyond measure. Because that's my testimony.

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But, your testimony is just as valuable as a fiction novel. It is of no consequence if "Fred" hears your testimony, becomes a believer in God.. and dies to salvation.. Or if "Tom" hears it, ingnores it and lives the life of Riley and dies to salvation anyway.

Shrewd Manager said:

Can we let our lives shine like Christ when we're traversing land an sea just to make new converts into the same sons of hell we are? That kind of rubbish preaching would have been rejected by Jew (who knew of God's jealous passion) and Greek (who'd spot the clumsy artifice a mile off).

I pray for all to come to a knowledge of God and know the truth, which will set them free, and cast off the shackles of fear and the power of death.

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You're basically going all over with selling tickets to an event that, in your opinion, requires no ticket...

Shrewd Manager said:

Churches and missionaries are to glorify God and bring the Kingdom to earth. Not for granting indulgences in the form of credit points towards afterlife fire indemnity.

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Why glorify God? He's just going to give me a stern look, show me my errors and wrongs... and scowl at me... then let me into His house anyway........

Shrewd Manager said:

Ppl gain entry to the New Jerusalem (that's heaven on earth, if you prefer) once listed in the Lamb's Book of Life, which occurs upon purification (Rev 21:27). So a process of renewal needs to occur in order for reconciliation to take place, and that process might be painful. What's so hard to understand? Why else would the nations walk by it's light, the Pearly Gates never close, the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come get the water', the leaves of the tree be to heal the nations?

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OK... now we're getting somewhere.

So.. there is pain, suffering. A renewal process..

Can you say how long this process takes? Who will get what? When it takes place? How "painful"?

You don't have kids do you?

If you treat every kid the same, no matter what they do, with no consequences... and they find out that in the end..they all get ice cream... you will have mayhem in your house.

Shrewd Manager said:

Bro, you're unfortunately on the horns of a pagan heresy there. Every pagan deity and its dog threatens unbelievers with damnation. We don't just say our God is the same but bigger smh. THERE IS NONE LIKE HIM:
13 Bible verses about No One Is Like God

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I guess you haven't looked carefully at all the scripture that people have posted, here, in total contradiction of your apostate view.

Yes, I would really like that to be true. I have many good friends and relatives that I would love to see in eternity.. Yet... they are totally unrepentant and deny the need of Christ, the existence of a supreme being, the need for salvation and they believe that they are just fine as the "good" people that they are and that should do it...

I would love to see them in glory..

However, I cannot square that circle...I cannot bend and twist and crunch scripture to read that way.

Shrewd Manager said:

Ok, have it your own way, God kills everyone who disagrees with him, like a tinpot third world dictator. Just 'the elect' are invited in.

Don't mind the fact he promised Abraham that all nations would be blessed, or that death and Hades just gave up their dead to be judged in 20:9.

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Nobody even has the breath of life without God so it’s not like he is “killing them” if they don’t abide in him unless they think they can just get their own breath without him.

Also I don’t even know what will happen so don’t say it’s my way.

Sorry that was actually rude but it is true about the breath.

Shrewd Manager said:

Ok, have it your own way, God kills everyone who disagrees with him, like a tinpot third world dictator. Just 'the elect' are invited in.

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Well, you can be "dictator" if you created everything that ever was created...

But He isn't.. He puts the choice in your hands.. All you have to do is ask... and you are saved....

It's your choice.. Dictators don't give a choice.

But, when you love everyone so much that you gave your Son to die for each and everyone of them in their place.... I think that you get to say what happens to those the don't respect your sacrifice.

Shrewd Manager said:

Don't mind the fact he promised Abraham that all nations would be blessed, or that death and Hades just gave up their dead to be judged in 20:9.

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Yes, the whole world was blessed by Abraham's lineage.. through Christ.

And, Hades will give up the dead to be judged and sent to the second death.. spiritual death.

But, you've been shown all this before anyway.

JacksBratt said:

Ah yes... because breaking the law, any law, should have no consequences....

So, why have the law?

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There are consequences!

If you observe the whole law and violate in one point you are guilty of ALL.

Are you aware that the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, ever, under any circumstance?

Welcome to the God of unlimited.