THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[Shrewd Manager]

How do you see the wedding garment described in Matthew 22:1-14?

First, it's important to have an excuse ready when not wearing the correct attire at a formal engagement. Secondly, if no excuse will work, you'd better stop carrying on in the darkness outside the party and use your time to find a late-night tailor.

So the flesh needs to be cleansed of its attachments to sin.

When you die to yourself, it’s fine to cast off the whole of the old because you’re redefined as the new creation. But in hades a person can’t be defined by their name, their family relations, their friendships, their house or possessions, none of that remains.

So what is the core essence of “the sinner” that will be saved if none of the old man remains?

Hades is the realm of the dead, the gloomy Sheol or land of the shades (in Greek mythology), meaning a relativist world of greys full of doubt and uncertainty.

But Jesus has the keys to death and Hades, and boy does he intend to use them. To free the prisoners and save them.

What of the old man remains? The carcass remains, being worked over in God's worm farm. Well, it seems to me that it's the same process as being 'born again' in the world (anakainosis, paliggenesis, apokatastasis), where the HS condescends on a person and changes their heart and mind - full immersion in the fire of God's being! Saul-to-Paul, Simon-to-Peter, scrawny to brawny, filthy to clean.

We still look back with contempt on the carcasses of our former selves (as 'chief of sinners' or whatever), but the power of sin's hold has been broken, and we're purified and ready to move forward toward healing with a clean garment. That man may be a little late for the wedding, but he can still remember to thank Jesus and partake of the water of life!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God's will to save sinners overcomes sinners' will to reject God. No, my point was that man's exercise of his alleged 'free will' under Adam leads to death, because his will is overborne by sin, the world and the devil. This is the recurrent theme throughout the scripture of Israel's failure, and why indeed a saviour was needed. Because man can't get to God by the law. I'm not even going to debate this point, it's so fundamental. You think you're a righteous Christian, well the Pharisees thought they were doing it right too.

Not really dear friend, it seems you simply ignored the very post you are quoting from and the scriptures provided that show why your mixing up free will with God's power to save a sinner as they have faith in God's Word *1 JOHN 5:4; ROMANS 1:16.

What you mix up with your claims on free will is this. Free will is what God gives to all mankind to make decision with to choose with. You mix up free will that all men have with God's power to accomplish what mankind spiritually do.

As posted earlier if we test your understanding of the scriptures which is that mandkind has no free will, we see JESUS and all of the prophets before JESUS going through all ISRAEL proclaiming "REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17: MARK 1:15; MARK 6:12; LUKE 13:3-5; LUKE 17:3-4; EZEKIEL 4:6; EZEKIEL 18:20-32. The APOSTLES and disciples proclaiming the same as JESUS and the Prophets in ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:22; ACTS 17:30; REVELATION 2:5. If there was no free will why would God through the prophets, JESUS and all the apostles be asking people to repent if they could not do choose to believe God's Word and do so? It is in believing God's Word that God's power is given to those who believe *1 JOHN 5:4.

This is different to being a slave to sin which before we choose to believe and follow God's Word we all are *ROMANS 7:9-24; ROMANS 6:1-23. The power to walk in God's Spirit comes in believing the Word of God dear friend *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 1:16.

So after we excercise our free will to choose to believe God's Word, what brings the power to walk in God's Word through His God's Spirit?

Drum roll please...

1 JOHN 5:4 [4], For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So how does the Gospel of God's free grace work? Well THROUGH FAITH of course *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. We get presented with the Word of God. We choose to believe or not believe (our part). If we do not believe we remain "UNBELIEVERS" and remain in sin. If we "BELIEVE" (have faith) on the Word of God only, we seek God in repentance and forgiveness and believe his promises *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9; JOHN 3:16. God's Spirit gives us the power then to walk in God's Word as we believe (have faith) *1 JOHN 5:4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; HEBREWS 8:10-11; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10.

No one has salvation dear friend without having the free will to choose it. Free will allows us to accept God's free gift or reject God's free gift. God provides the POWER as we believe His Word. Your mixing up mans free will to choose with God's POWER to save! The power comes through the gospel as we choose to believe it.

ROMANS 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD TO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Bottom line is, to know Him is to love Him. So if you don't love Him, it's because you don't know Him. Solution? He reveals who He is, and then the heart melts like wax, the sinner is born again by fire and the Spirit, the knee bends and the tongue confesses. Purification and healing can start

Yes we need a new heart to LOVE God. This is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12 but love is not separate from God's LAW it is the power that establishes Gods law in the life of all those who have faith in God's Word and are made free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:15; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 6:1-23; ROMANS 3:31 and is why JESUS says "ON THESE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS of love to God and man, HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. Before we come to JESUS the role of God's LAW is to lead us to the cross all undone as sinners where we look up in faith and see Gods' love at the foot of the cross and receive God's forgivness. It is by holding out the hand of faith we receive God's gift of GRACE *EPHESIANS 2:8.

This entire book/ sermon is preached to Hebrew Christians who are considering abandoning the faith and reverting to the Torah. The passage in question is an example of prophetic rhetoric. This can be seen by the reference to Deut 32:35-36:

'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.' "For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.

So retribution that leads to restoration, aka corrective punishment. Retributive language for a restorative purpose. God is passionate, and Paul's speaking the language of passion to ppl who understood it. Also seen here:

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, "Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes. "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy. "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city." (Isa 1:24-26)

Say to those with anxious heart, "Take courage, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance; The recompense of God will come, But He will save you." Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy. For waters will break forth in the wilderness And streams in the Arabah. (Isa 35:4-6)

So I daresay, unlike the humble modern protestant, the ancient Hebe had some knowledge that God's wrath (although a fearful thing) was ultimately corrective (because He loves us). Further to this, as we see later in Hebrews, Paul explains in prose as to what he's saying here in Ch.12:4-11, a passage editorially described as 'God disciplines His Children', and concludes: "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (v.11)

Again, Paul concludes the chapter with 'for our God is a consuming fire' (Heb 12:29), referencing Deut 4:24, wherein God warns Israel of the consequences of idolatry, leading them into great distress etc, and then:

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath (Deut 4:31)

This consuming fire theme is expounded in other scriptures, such as Jer 5:3 and Zeph 5:8-9, which clarify that the fire of God's wrath is to destroy the sinful rubbish and produce repentance. Surely it's not pleasant, but it's there to destroy the sin and deliver the sinner transformed.

And what covenant was that? Could it be the covenant with Abraham that all the nations of the world shall be blessed (Gen 22:18), guaranteed by the new covenant (Heb 7:22), and delivered in Revelation, where the nations after being given over to the tribulation will it says worship God (Rev 15:4), and after being consumed by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9) and/or cast into the Lake of Fire (20:15), then emerge to walk in the light of the New City and bring their gifts (21:24-26), and then receive healing from the tree of life (22:2)?

So before you rush enthusiastically into casting God as the 'Reject me and I'll dump you' type, maybe have a little think about true love, and how covenantal love works. That's where trust and belief start.

Nonsense dear Shrewd. All you have done here is pop all over the place without addressing chapter context to HEBREWS 10 and are trying to read into HEBREWS 10 what it is not saying trying to argue that these sciptures are only relavant to HEBREWS returning to a sacrificial system without any reference to any JEWS trying to return to a Sacrificial system. You have used eisegesis or your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach to get your interpretation where as the correct method for understanding the scriptures is by asking for God's guidence though his Spirit *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13 and using the practice of exegesis or letting the scripture interpret itself or using topical analysis of subject matter.

The context and subject matter is to God's NEW COVENANT promise and those who continue in known unrepentant SIN after they have been given a knowledge of the truth! No where in HEBREWS 10 does it mention anything about JEWISH beleivers returning to the sacrificial system. Show me the scripture please? HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10 are all the same subject matter showing the fulfillment of the MOSIAC LAWS lor remission of sins in the new covenant promise (eg. HEBREWS 8:10-12)

Let's look at the detail and subject matter being discussed throughout the chapter....

HEBREWS 10:1-9 is continuing on from HEBREWS 7, HEBREWS 8 and HEBREWS 9 where we see that the chapter subject matter is continuing talking about the fulfillment of the "SHADOW LAWS" in ordinances in reference to the sacrificial systems and how they all point to JESUS as our true sacrifice and his ministry as our great High Priest and his work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary as written in the Mosaic book of the law.

HEBREWS 10:10-17 shows that Chrsits death on the cross is our complete sacrifice everytime sin is committed to those who are "sanctified" v14; once and for all *HEBREWS 10:10 and for all time. Then we move on and the focus of the discussion is between the two covenant (old and new) v15-17 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. This is in reference to JEREMIAH 31:31-34 and the previous chapters in HEBREWS 8:10-12.

HEBREWS 10:18-22 show that the new covenants fulfillment of all sacrifices in Christs perfect sacrifice and no more sin offerings are required within the new covenant which pointed to JESUS and his work as our great High Priest and Paul encouraging the Jewish beleivers by saying "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for he is faithful that promised v23. Note these are believers in the new covenant faith. They are not returning to animal sacrifices as you claim and there is nothing in the whole book of HEBREWS to indicate this theory.

HEBREWS 10:23-29 we come to the "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" to "HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH" *HEBREWS 10:23 NOT TO " SIN WILLFULLY AFTER RECEIVING AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD *HEBREWS 10:26; then to HEBREWS 10:29 [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

The WARNING here in context is to "BELIEVERS" (THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT - CHRIST SACRIFICE) not to "SIN WILLFULLY" after receiving a KNOWLEDGE of the truth *HEBREWS 10:26 continuing to HEBREWS 10:29 of those who BELIEVERS who "SIN WILLFULLY" [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he (those who sin willfully) be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified ἁγιάζω, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

CONTEXT: here to this WARNING to BELIEVERS (If WE v26) is to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS that SIN WILLFULLY after receiveing a knowledge of the truth. HEBREWS 10:29 stating their punishment after being sanctified ἁγιάζω, (past tense to was)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 37: sanctified ἁγιάζω means to purify by expiation, free from the guilt of sin : 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 13:12; Hebrews 2:11 (equivalent to כִּפֶר, Exodus 29:33, 36); cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 340ff (English translation 2:68f).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to sanctify From hagios; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Note what is shown here in HEBREWS 10:26-29?

1. Warning to believers (if we believers) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth v26
2. How much more greater will their punishment be v29
3. They were (past tense) made holy purified from the guilt of sin (sanctified) by the blood of the covenant v29
4. By sinning willfully count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing v29
5. Had received God's Spirit but grieved and insulted it v29.

This warning is referring to those who fall into apostasy is τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς χάριτος ἐνυβρίσας, “and insult the spirit of grace”. The spirit of grace is the distinctive gift of Christian times. To have blasphemed this gracious Spirit, who brings the assurance of God’s presence and pardon, and gifts suited to each believer, is to renounce all part in things spiritual. HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 2:4; EPHESIANS 4:7

The CONTEXT of v29 clearly shows that PAUL is addressing the BELIEVERS. The section above concludes with...

[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38], Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back [Believers going back to willful sin see v26-29], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Context is very clear don't you think and it is not teaching what you are.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

First, it's important to have an excuse ready when not wearing the correct attire at a formal engagement. Secondly, if no excuse will work, you'd better stop carrying on in the darkness outside the party and use your time to find a late-night tailor.

So the flesh needs to be cleansed of its attachments to sin.



Hades is the realm of the dead, the gloomy Sheol or land of the shades (in Greek mythology), meaning a relativist world of greys full of doubt and uncertainty.

But Jesus has the keys to death and Hades, and boy does he intend to use them. To free the prisoners and save them.

What of the old man remains? The carcass remains, being worked over in God's worm farm. Well, it seems to me that it's the same process as being 'born again' in the world (anakainosis, paliggenesis, apokatastasis), where the HS condescends on a person and changes their heart and mind - full immersion in the fire of God's being! Saul-to-Paul, Simon-to-Peter, scrawny to brawny, filthy to clean.

We still look back with contempt on the carcasses of our former selves (as 'chief of sinners' or whatever), but the power of sin's hold has been broken, and we're purified and ready to move forward toward healing with a clean garment. That man may be a little late for the wedding, but he can still remember to thank Jesus and partake of the water of life!

What I’m trying to get at is that there is no “self” if “self” is entirely consumed in purifying fire.

I think we can agree there is only one single breath for all of mankind which was given to Adam at Genesis 2:7 and then dispersed throughout all of the descendants. You talk about pruning, so when you see something like the flood, why do you see each one of those non-Noahide people as their own tree with branches to be pruned rather than as pruned branches of the singular breath of adam?

I don’t know the answer but I think that for something to be saved, there needs to be that thing, and if the whole purification is for that thing to be destroyed, what is it? Not the body. Not the personality? And if the spirit, that belongs to God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What you mix up with your claims on free will is this. Free will is what God gives to all mankind to make decision with to choose with. You mix up free will that all men have with God's power to accomplish what mankind spiritually do.

Wow, are you related to der Alter? It's becoming a real war of attrition lol. I'm lost in your forest of sticks.

I repeat: God's will trumps man's will.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev 4:11)

Do you say it's God's pleasure to reach out his arm in futility to watch most of his critters walk on by lol? What a travesty of victory that would be!

If there was no free will why would God through the prophets, JESUS and all the apostles be asking people to repent if they could not do choose to believe God's Word and do so?

Because if you don't repent now, Jesus will come with his winnowing fork and give you the holy fire treatment to separate the dross. That will be painful.

So after we excercise our free will to choose to believe God's Word, what brings the power to walk in God's Word through His God's Spirit?

No dude, we love Him because He loved us first.

Before we come to JESUS the role of God's LAW is to lead us to the cross all undone as sinners where we look up in faith and see Gods' love at the foot of the cross and receive God's forgivness. It is by holding out the hand of faith we receive God's gift of GRACE *EPHESIANS 2:8.

Ok, and sooner or later everyone will see the truth. Why the last book is called Revelation.

Nonsense dear Shrewd. All you have done here is pop all over the place without addressing chapter context to HEBREWS 10 and are trying to read into HEBREWS 10 what it is not saying trying to argue that these sciptures are only relavant to HEBREWS returning to a sacrificial system without any reference to any JEWS trying to return to a Sacrificial system. You have used eisegesis or your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach to get your interpretation where as the correct method for understanding the scriptures is by asking for God's guidence though his Spirit *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13 and using the practice of exegesis or letting the scripture interpret itself or using topical analysis of subject matter.

No, I just followed the scriptural references within the passage you cited back to their sources in the OT and showed you that the holy fire refers to God's wrath which produces repentance and restoration. Fact remains that OT Hebrews understood that God's consuming fire was destructive of sin and would deliver/ judge the sinner, by bringing him to repentance - the hard way!

The references to Jesus' once-and-for-all sacrifice being better than the OT system which could not cover sins also runs against your free will argument, because it shows that man was never able to overcome by the law.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What I’m trying to get at is that there is no “self” if “self” is entirely consumed in purifying fire.

I think we can agree there is only one single breath for all of mankind which was given to Adam at Genesis 2:7 and then dispersed throughout all of the descendants. You talk about pruning, so when you see something like the flood, why do you see each one of those non-Noahide people as their own tree with branches to be pruned rather than as pruned branches of the singular breath of adam?

I don’t know the answer but I think that for something to be saved, there needs to be that thing, and if the whole purification is for that thing to be destroyed, what is it? Not the body. Not the personality? And if the spirit, that belongs to God.

Well, the metaphors for sin used in the Gospels are those of affliction - leprousy, lameness, blindness, death. So I don't think a philosophical approach is really going to yield anything but semantic issues.

When you're anointed by the Spirit, your heart is full of love of God and gratitude, and you see with eyes of mercy. No longer self-centred and plagued with doubts and worries. That's the direction of heaven, the becoming filled with the bread and wine of the Eucharist, and the spiritual transformation that takes place.

To try to conceive of it without the fire of the Spirit is impossible.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Wow, are you related to der Alter? It's becoming a real war of attrition lol. I'm lost in your forest of sticks.

I repeat: God's will trumps man's will.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev 4:11)

Do you say it's God's pleasure to reach out his arm in futility to watch most of his critters walk on by lol? What a travesty of victory that would be!



Because if you don't repent now, Jesus will come with his winnowing fork and give you the holy fire treatment to separate the dross. That will be painful.



No dude, we love Him because He loved us first.



Ok, and sooner or later everyone will see the truth. Why the last book is called Revelation.



No, I just followed the scriptural references within the passage you cited back to their sources in the OT and showed you that the holy fire refers to God's wrath which produces repentance and restoration. Fact remains that OT Hebrews understood that God's consuming fire was destructive of sin and would deliver/ judge the sinner, by bringing him to repentance - the hard way!

The references to Jesus' once-and-for-all sacrifice being better than the OT system which could not cover sins also runs against your free will argument, because it shows that man was never able to overcome by the law.

If you did not wish to respond to the scriptures shared with you dear friend just say so. Your response here is simply handwaiving the post you are quoting from without demonstrating why you disagree from the scriptures. If you disagree show why as I have done to your posts and scriptures that you have provided. If you cannot it is ok we will have to agree to disagree I guess. All your providing here I believe is your opinion unsupported by the scriptures. Post # 341 linked proves this and I think you know it. Anyhow thanks for sharing your view.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Well, the metaphors for sin used in the Gospels are those of affliction - leprousy, lameness, blindness, death. So I don't think a philosophical approach is really going to yield anything but semantic issues.

When you're anointed by the Spirit, your heart is full of love of God and gratitude, and you see with eyes of mercy. No longer self-centred and plagued with doubts and worries. That's the direction of heaven, the becoming filled with the bread and wine of the Eucharist, and the spiritual transformation that takes place.

To try to conceive of it without the fire of the Spirit is impossible.

I understand what you mean about desiring mercy for all. That’s actually what brought me to God, wanting reconciliation for something else and being questioned as to why I wouldn’t accept it for myself.

I’m not saying this because I’m so comfortable staring into a void of “is not” but because I genuinely don’t want to encourage people to disobey the very clear and unambiguous commandment “repent” or “come home” or however you want to put it because they think they can just pass through the fire in the end.

you know?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I understand what you mean about desiring mercy for all. That’s actually what brought me to God, wanting reconciliation for something else and being questioned as to why I wouldn’t accept it for myself.

I’m not saying this because I’m so comfortable staring into a void of “is not” but because I genuinely don’t want to encourage people to disobey the very clear and unambiguous commandment “repent” or “come home” or however you want to put it because they think they can just pass through the fire in the end.

you know?

Well that, I would suggest, is an article of faith.

The early church fathers faced the same 'problem'. They developed a doctrine of 'oeconomy', to essentially threaten immature catechumens with hellfire (lest they abuse the gift of mercy), and then gradually reveal to them the truth of mercy upon all.

But the fathers messed up, imho, and created a false oeconomy, by taking risk management into their own hands, they opened the door to an idolatrous pagan counterfeit, and here we are today - 'God loves you, but if you reject Jesus you're doomed'. I sympathise with protest atheism on those terms, cause it's a strawman.

What good does threatening ppl with eternal punishment do? Historically it's been shown to be devastating on every level. It produces resentment and psychotic thinking ('Just doing God's will'). There's a way that 'seems right to a man', but where does that way lead?

Plus the whole 'model' of sacrificing your fun here to get heaven later is false. What Jesus offers is a relationship with God, the power of God which is love, faith and hope right now. The blessings and the grace, to be with God and He to be for you not against. Once God changes your heart, you see those old sins for what they are.

So damnation doctrine is just so fallen and corrosive on every level.

And warning ppl along the lines 'If you don't repent you'll get horribly corrupted and God's gonna have to fix you the hard way' - can be demonstrated by reference to the story of Israel to scare them enough! They don't need to be totally terrorised, do they?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Well that, I would suggest, is an article of faith.

The early church fathers faced the same 'problem'. They developed a doctrine of 'oeconomy', to essentially threaten immature catechumens with hellfire (lest they abuse the gift of mercy), and then gradually reveal to them the truth of mercy upon all.

But the fathers messed up, imho, and created a false oeconomy, by taking risk management into their own hands, they opened the door to an idolatrous pagan counterfeit, and here we are today - 'God loves you, but if you reject Jesus you're doomed'. I sympathise with protest atheism on those terms, cause it's a strawman.

What good does threatening ppl with eternal punishment do? Historically it's been shown to be devastating on every level. It produces resentment and psychotic thinking ('Just doing God's will'). There's a way that 'seems right to a man', but where does that way lead?

Plus the whole 'model' of sacrificing your fun here to get heaven later is false. What Jesus offers is a relationship with God, the power of God which is love, faith and hope right now. The blessings and the grace, to be with God and He to be for you not against. Once God changes your heart, you see those old sins for what they are.

So damnation doctrine is just so fallen and corrosive on every level.

And warning ppl along the lines 'If you don't repent you'll get horribly corrupted and God's gonna have to fix you the hard way' - can be demonstrated by reference to the story of Israel to scare them enough! They don't need to be totally terrorised, do they?

I think that’s a fair interpretation of human history, but not of scripture. You also run the risk of going too far in the opposite direction, preaching peace, peace, but at the first line of questions you couldn’t even assert to me with confidence that anything would be left of a person after the fire. That won’t stand when the person really gets tested.

The story of Balaam matters because he literally could not curse God’s people but he also knew that bringing them outside of God’s protection would get them cursed regardless. Now it’s spiritual warfare and I can’t even quote the parts of scripture calling us to notice it because I can just say read the whole thing.

Only the words of the Shepherd can call the sheep.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well that, I would suggest, is an article of faith.

The early church fathers faced the same 'problem'. They developed a doctrine of 'oeconomy', to essentially threaten immature catechumens with hellfire (lest they abuse the gift of mercy), and then gradually reveal to them the truth of mercy upon all.

But the fathers messed up, imho, and created a false oeconomy, by taking risk management into their own hands, they opened the door to an idolatrous pagan counterfeit, and here we are today - 'God loves you, but if you reject Jesus you're doomed'. I sympathise with protest atheism on those terms, cause it's a strawman.

What good does threatening ppl with eternal punishment do? Historically it's been shown to be devastating on every level. It produces resentment and psychotic thinking ('Just doing God's will'). There's a way that 'seems right to a man', but where does that way lead?

Plus the whole 'model' of sacrificing your fun here to get heaven later is false. What Jesus offers is a relationship with God, the power of God which is love, faith and hope right now. The blessings and the grace, to be with God and He to be for you not against. Once God changes your heart, you see those old sins for what they are.

So damnation doctrine is just so fallen and corrosive on every level.

And warning ppl along the lines 'If you don't repent you'll get horribly corrupted and God's gonna have to fix you the hard way' - can be demonstrated by reference to the story of Israel to scare them enough! They don't need to be totally terrorised, do they?

Although I do not believe in the Catholic teachings of eternal burning hellfire and brimstone which is one extreme teaching that is not biblical as it divorces God's love and mercy from God's justice and judgment. For me the content of your post does not hold up according to the scriptures in my view and is simply the other opposite extreme view of God is only love and mercy which is also not biblical.

All I see is God's love in God's Word and also in his justice and judgements. Why? God is a God of love and mercy which is what we both agree onw yet if you believe the scriptures he is also a God of justice and judgement (plenty of scripture here just let me know) and this is the reason why he sent JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively.

If God was not a God of judgement and Justice JESUS would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you? If there was no justice and judgement for sin JESUS would not have had to die for us. Yet you do not seem to see this.

The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. God is a God of love and mercy to all those who hear and follow him and a God of justice and judgement to those who do not. There is no second chances at the second coming dear friend only justice and judgement. While those who are written in the lambs book of life have already received Love and Mercy.

Can you see God's love here in God's justice dear Shrewd?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think that’s a fair interpretation of human history, but not of scripture. You also run the risk of going too far in the opposite direction, preaching peace, peace, but at the first line of questions you couldn’t even assert to me with confidence that anything would be left of a person after the fire. That won’t stand when the person really gets tested.

What was left of Saul-Paul? of Simon-Peter? of Sodom & Gomorrah? Of Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida? Israel after the Babylonian Exile? This is also a metaphor for a person. Some of those parts are lost or destroyed. But Christ seeks and saves the lost, and raises the dead.

So what sort of a test do you think it is? Why keep imposing a modern western (Aristotelian) mindset? Submit, surrender to God, and experience divine revelation, amazing grace. Look to Christ - he cleanses and he heals. What the Father does.

The story of Balaam matters because he literally could not curse God’s people but he also knew that bringing them outside of God’s protection would get them cursed regardless. Now it’s spiritual warfare and I can’t even quote the parts of scripture calling us to notice it because I can just say read the whole thing.

Only the words of the Shepherd can call the sheep.

Right, and scripture is all about God's plan to save and restore creation, the super-mega-Jubilee which is the hope and faith of all believers, it saturates the scriptures. In a Jubilee year, property gets restored, that means the dispossessed get sorted out and the unjust lose their ill-gotten gains. But nobody gets tortured forever, what a notion!

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

What was left of Saul-Paul? of Simon-Peter? of Sodom & Gomorrah? Of Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida? Israel after the Babylonian Exile? This is also a metaphor for a person. Some of those parts are lost or destroyed. But Christ seeks and saves the lost, and raises the dead.

So what sort of a test do you think it is? Why keep imposing a modern western (Aristotelian) mindset? Submit, surrender to God, and experience divine revelation, amazing grace. Look to Christ - he cleanses and he heals. What the Father does.



Right, and scripture is all about God's plan to save and restore creation, the super-mega-Jubilee which is the hope and faith of all believers, it saturates the scriptures. In a Jubilee year, property gets restored, that means the dispossessed get sorted out and the unjust lose their ill-gotten gains. But nobody gets tortured forever, what a notion!

I know a lot more about Jubilee than I know about Aristotle but in fairness I know basically nothing about Aristotle.

And yes the whole point is to surrender to God’s will. That literally is repentance. I’m sorry that it’s been almost turned into a stereotype of a person yelling repent and turning people away but that doesn’t mean to stop saying the same as the prophets, the apostles, and the Messiah, “Repent!”

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Also you talk about conversion while a person is alive (Saul, Simon) but we were discussing it about the dead, which is the actual question in dispute.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Also (also) talking about tests for example “deny Christ or go to lions” and what do they hear? Deny is fine, it will be fixed in the end.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Although I do not believe in the Catholic teachings of eternal burning hellfire and brimstone. For me the content of your post does not hold up according to the scriptures in my view and is simply the other opposite extreme view of God is only love and mercy which is also not biblical.

Great, so the Catholics got it wrong, I got it wrong, you got it right. Congratulations brother!

All I see is God's love in God's Word and also in his justice and judgements. Why? God is a God of love and mercy which is what we both agree onw yet if you believe the scriptures he is also a God of justice and judgement (plenty of scripture here just let me know) and this is the reason why he sent JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively.

What does love mean to you? True love is the only real motivation to produce self-sacrifice. To go through death and hell for love of his own who failed to recognise him. You think love stops there?! God continues to love the world. He loves it so much that He has guaranteed it will not perish, by the blood of His son.

Idk what you think love is there dude. God's passionate jealous hunka burnin' love for His creation against these spiritual forces that are trying to destroy it - sin, death, the devil. He takes aim at SIN, to SAVE mankind. His love doesn't run out, there's no 'point of no return' for sinners. Rejection of God is sinful rebellion, that sin will be destroyed IN HIS LOVE. Once ppl see who He is, how much they owe Him and never realised, yet how He can forgive their folly. Changes a man's heart.

Human will can never overcome without the love of God in the heart. Really, I pray that you'll get to see it sooner rather than later bro.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I know a lot more about Jubilee than I know about Aristotle but in fairness I know basically nothing about Aristotle.

Aristotle invented the rationalist empiricist mode of thinking prevalent in the world today. It forms the basis of the sciences and now much of the arts. It's how most of us were trained to think.

So is God's omega plan the restoration of all things?

And yes the whole point is to surrender to God’s will. That literally is repentance. I’m sorry that it’s been almost turned into a stereotype of a person yelling repent and turning people away but that doesn’t mean to stop saying the same as the prophets, the apostles, and the Messiah, “Repent!”

Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Unfortunately, ppl understand that to mean - 'or else you're going to hell forever'. Look, you're never going to do God or unbelievers justice by promoting a god who supposedly loves them but will punish them so infinitely if they don't comply - it's prima facie offensive to any concept of justice, proportionality. It's a caricature, a travesty and a farce. So now God hates an equal measure?

Also you talk about conversion while a person is alive (Saul, Simon) but we were discussing it about the dead, which is the actual question in dispute.

There's no difference. Saul was dead in his sins, what's the difference if his camel had been involved in a nasty head-on collision with angry bull, and Saul had woken up before the Great White Throne?

Also (also) talking about tests for example “deny Christ or go to lions” and what do they hear? Deny is fine, it will be fixed in the end.

Well, you just have to take the chance that love of God is going to be enough to resist the temptation. Did Jesus fear hell when he sweated blood at Gethsemane? No, because he LOVED his Father.

Despite the teachings of scripture, do you think many Christians really have any clue about what true love is?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Aristotle invented the rationalist empiricist mode of thinking prevalent in the world today. It forms the basis of the sciences and now much of the arts. It's how most of us were trained to think.

So is God's omega plan the restoration of all things?



Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Unfortunately, ppl understand that to mean - 'or else you're going to hell forever'. Look, you're never going to do God or unbelievers justice by promoting a god who supposedly loves them but will punish them so infinitely if they don't comply - it's prima facie offensive to any concept of justice, proportionality. It's a caricature, a travesty and a farce. So now God hates an equal measure?



There's no difference. Saul was dead in his sins, what's the difference if his camel had been involved in a nasty head-on collision with angry bull, and Saul had woken up before the Great White Throne?



Well, you just have to take the chance that love of God is going to be enough to resist the temptation. Did Jesus fear hell when he sweated blood at Gethsemane? No, because he LOVED his Father.

Despite the teachings of scripture, do you think many Christians really have any clue about what true love is?

I’ll take your word on Aristotle because I don’t know how much it matters, but the land restored in Jubilee is the land given to the tribes as inheritance by God. It’s not just every land everywhere but something really specific and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 would imply there’s no universal inheritance. Literally it says do not be deceived and it’s a deception to try to claim an inheritance that isn’t yours.

You said in your other post “He loves it so much that He has guaranteed it will not perish, by the blood of His son.” Forgive me if I assume wrong but if that refers to John 3:16 that isn’t actually the guarantee. God actually guaranteed the world will perish in 2 Peter 3:7 but in John 3:16 he said believers in Christ will not.

I’m not talking about punishment but what seems strange to me is that you’re completely willing to accept that your own self must be destroyed but don’t seem willing to accept that another’s self must also.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

but the land restored in Jubilee is the land given to the tribes as inheritance by God. It’s not just every land everywhere but something really specific and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 would imply there’s no universal inheritance. Literally it says do not be deceived and it’s a deception to try to claim an inheritance that isn’t yours.

Well, are you aware that the 50th year is the Year of Lord? Jesus fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 9 of 70 weeks of years ie 490 years, which is the 'super-Jubilee'? And Jesus' mission as he reads from Isaiah 61:1-2 is the Jubilee mission. So it's ALL tied to the Jubilee event. This what the 'time of restoration of all things of which all the prophets spake' (Acts 3:21) is referring to.

I get the sense that many Christians don't really know what's going on. The pattern is from 'types and shadows' in the OT (the original Jubilee year) to their fulfilment (Christ) to their consummation in the end times when heaven and earth unite - Behold! I am making everything new. Can you see it now?

You said in your other post “He loves it so much that He has guaranteed it will not perish, by the blood of His son.” Forgive me if I assume wrong but if that refers to John 3:16 that isn’t actually the guarantee. God actually guaranteed the world will perish in 2 Peter 3:7 but in John 3:16 he said believers in Christ will not.

The world is perishing so God sends Christ to save it. He is the saviour of the whole world.

I’m not talking about punishment but what seems strange to me is that you’re completely willing to accept that your own self must be destroyed but don’t seem willing to accept that another’s self must also.

Sorry but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Well, are you aware that the 50th year is the Year of Lord? Jesus fulfills the prophecy in Daniel 9 of 70 weeks of years ie 490 years, which is the 'super-Jubilee'? And Jesus' mission as he reads from Isaiah 61:1-2 is the Jubilee mission. So it's ALL tied to the Jubilee event. This what the 'time of restoration of all things of which all the prophets spake' (Acts 3:21) is referring to.

I get the sense that many Christians don't really know what's going on. The pattern is from 'types and shadows' in the OT (the original Jubilee year) to their fulfilment (Christ) to their consummation in the end times when heaven and earth unite - Behold! I am making everything new. Can you see it now?



The world is perishing so God sends Christ to save it. He is the saviour of the whole world.



Sorry but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Yes to the shadows of what is to come and honestly if you want to make a topic about that it would be a really great conversation.

At the same time since this is a topic about destruction, Deuteronomy 9:3-5.

And in context, Matthew 1:21 and John 10:16, he will save his people.

I am so grateful that I was counted as one of those lost that I don’t want to then turn around and deny anyone the same glorious grace of repentance that let me come home.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Also (also) talking about tests for example “deny Christ or go to lions” and what do they hear? Deny is fine, it will be fixed in the end.

How about 'Take the vaccine or lose your privileges'?