THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Jord, welcome dear friend and nice to meet you . Some comments for your consideration are provided below.

Perhaps you have not been following all the conversation here dear friend. We are here are in this thread and after 106 pages and 2100 + post there has not been a single scripture provided that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming. I count myself blessed to be able to share the scriptures with you dear friend for your prayerful consideration but only ask you my come to our discussion with a prayerful open mind and consider the Word of God that will be shared that will not be my words but God's Word.

Hello LoveGodsWord, nice to meet you too.

I count myself blessed to share the scriptures with you too lol.

I have indeed not read the entire thread but I did read the first few pages and the last few pages, and I've read a number of similar discussions before.

I have a question. Do you do this yourself too, pray over the posts/thread?
Else it would be a little hypocritical to ask others to do so, wouldn't it?

According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

I will make these post smaller so they are easier to read and respond to. To be continued...

That's your interpretation, in my opinion, that there is no second chance after the second coming of Jesus (and/or after natural death?). Your view of this destruction isn't the same as mine. I believe it is the dying/destruction of the old man, as I said, you believe it is similar to irreversable death/annihilation of souls.

Just to be clear I am not gambling with my own salvation. I have worked it out with fear and trembling as the scriptures told me to do. I wouldn't advice anybody to gamble on the second death or go for it, there are many scriptures calling for immediate action. However, I do believe that all people yes even all creatures will be saved (and that is all based on the Word of God). This has greatly comforted me and relaxed me about the fate of my fellow-man not in the last place my own family members, who all aren't Christian.

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Note who Paul is talking to dear Jord. Who is the "US" is it believers; that is those who believe and follow God's Word or "Unbelivers" (the unrepentant wicked) that Paul is talking to when he says... "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love". The point here is that the "US" is in reference to the saints, the believers not the unbelievers or the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. God's Word is for God's people who are all those who believe and follow it (please read John 10:26-27 and Matthew 7:21-27). Keep in mind that the unrepentant wicked are "unbelievers" they do not believe and follow God's Word. God's Word is to those who believe and follow it. According to the scripture these are the Saints - the "US" being referred to in Ephesians 1:4.

Hope this is helpful..

Maybe you're right it is believers only. Let's go with that.

Now let's say I read it to my mother, who is not a Christian.
Let's say I'd read Ephesians 1:3-16 to her.

Let's say I would say to her about verse 13 that it doesn't include her, because she has not believed or asked God for the Holy Spirit yet.

If let's say she doesn't go on to read more or ask God for the Holy Spirit and/or faith in Jesus, does that make the Word of God empty and vain for her that she just heard, or is it still true and indeed a promise of God, that she belongs to "us", that she felt she belonged when she heard:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Will she be hearing from Jesus that she belonged to "them" instead, of which by the way, there is no mention?

I don't think so. I believe it is all of us.
(Not necessarily the greatest argument for universal salvation, I admit, but I'm just explaining myself).

a-lily-of-peace · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
Maybe you're right it is believers only. Let's go with that.

Now let's say I read it to my mother, who is not a Christian.
Let's say I'd read Ephesians 1:3-16 to her.

Let's say I would say to her about verse 13 that it doesn't include her, because she has not believed or asked God for the Holy Spirit yet.

If let's say she doesn't go on to read more or ask God for the Holy Spirit and/or faith in Jesus, does that make the Word of God empty and vain for her that she just heard, or is it still true and indeed a promise of God, that she belongs to "us", that she felt she belonged when she heard:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Will she be hearing from Jesus that she belonged to "them" instead, of which by the way, there is no mention?

I don't think so. I believe it is all of us.
(Not necessarily the greatest argument for universal salvation, I admit, but I'm just explaining myself).

If you take out the verse numbers there’s no way to effectively separate “verse 13” from “verses 4-6” because it is all one sentence.

Really if someone wants to belong to the “us” but doesn’t want to belong to Christ it might be better to do away with the verse numbers and ask them to explain how that’s possible at all.

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Once again lets look at the contexts again and how this scripture relates to other scripture within the bible. If we read the scriptures we must always remember that context is king also Gods' Word does not contradict itself. If we take an interpretation of the scripture and our interpretation of the scriptures contradicts other scripture we can know that we do not have a correct understanding of the scriptures and our interpretation of them is in error. If we find our interpretation of the scriptures contradicts other scriptures that teach the opposite to what we believe it should be a red flag to us that perhaps our understanding of the scripture is in error as Gods' Word does not contradict itself.

Ok with those thoughts in mind. Let's start of by looking at the context of 1 Timothy 4:10 and see how interpretation related to the rest of the scriptures and the bible.

The scripture says.. that "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."

The purpose of these scriptures is to show that Jesus has made provision for the sins of all mankind *John 1:29; John 3:16-17 and that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world foretold by the prophets *John 4:42. He is our only hope and shows God's love for all mankind (the world) by sending his only begotten son that whosoever "believes" on him should not perish but have everlasting life. Note here that the context of John 3:17 is once again as it is to 1 Timothy 4:10 to those who "believe" which is conditional. Jesus is indeed the Saviour that God sent to save the whole world to save the world and it is to the whole world that this gospel must be preached *Matthew 26:13; 1 John 2:2 but according to the scriptures this salvation is conditional and only given to those who "believe and follow" Gods' Word.

You're right, the Word of God doesn't contradict itself. So when it says saviour of all men or saviour of the world that's what God is and Jesus is. God can not call Himself saviour of all men and not save all men; I would protest. That is not a perfect God by any means. And God is perfect.

Yes only believers are saved. But all men will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.

The Greek word used here for "specially" (1 Timothy 4:10) is G3122 μάλιστα is an adverb and means most (in the greatest degree), above all and chiefly. That is, God's desire is that for all the world to be saved *1 Timothy 2:4. The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means , "desires" God desires that all people in the world to be saved. But, not all people will be saved as the scriptures teach that God's invitation to the world of salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word *John 3:16; Matthew 7:21-27. According to the scriptures God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should receive a knowledge of the truth of his Word and come to repentance and turn to him *2 Peter 3:9; Hebrews 10:26-27.

I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2

But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. Psalms 115:3 NKJV

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11

Remember you said the Word of God doesn't contradict itself.

God's plan: send Jesus to save the world (John 3:17).

His desire is that all men come to the truth and be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)

Who can thwart it??? He does as He pleases. (Job 42:2, Psalms 115:3)

He will be succesfull.

This scriptures do not say that all mankind will receive salvation but that Jesus is the Saviour for all mankind and has made provision for it through his life, death and resurrection. In context to the rest of the bible, salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word and John 3:16 is the context of John 3:17. God's free gift of grace is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word (scripture support here linked). According to the scriptures, those who do not believe and follow Gods' Word are not saved but condemned *Mark 16:16 and do not partake of the resurrection of eternal life *John 5:28-29 as the promise of God's salvation is to those who believe *John 3:16. Those who do not believe are condemned already in their unbelief *John 3:18-21.

Yeah, and so was I, condemned, until I believed. That can change.

According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). So no dear friend 1 Timothy 4:10 and John 3:17 when context is applied does not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

The fact that there is no explicit mention of a second chance after death or the second coming doesn't mean there won't be. God urges us to follow Jesus Christ as soon as possible but His desire which you mentioned to have all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved won't change, thus will remain, also after Jesus' Second Coming. So it wouldn't make sense for God to put a deadline on converting and personally, I don't see it.

John 3:17 is clear about the purpose of God sending Jesus into the world. Not to condemn, but to save, the world. If God doesn't save the entire world, He would have failed, which He doesn't do.

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Well thanks for your advice dear Jord but you are a little behind the times in this thread. All the so called scripture have already been addressed throughout the thread and when context is provided does not say what universalists claim they are saying. Also, you may wish to consider that even after 106 pages and 2100 + post there has not been a single scripture provided that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming.

Yeah no doubt these debates tend to be repetitive (this is the reason I took a little time off from the forum). My apologies if I'm repeating somebody else's arguments.

Has Revelation 22:17 been mentioned yet?
This is after all mentions of the Lake of Fire.
Who do you think the Bride is calling?

According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

I'm not gambling at all. I worked out my own salvation with fear and trembling like I said.
After my conversion I tried to convert people a lot, without any succes.
Then I found out about universal salvation, all based on the Bible.

Now I have faith. It's not a gamble.

The teachings of Universalism contradict the bible. Try reconciling all the scriptures in the linked post above and what is written here if you disagree. If you cannot perhaps it is time to prayerfully reconsider what you believe. The teachings of Universalism has it's origins from GENESIS 3:1-5 do you know what that is?

I disagree wholeheartedly and claim that the Bible teaches universalism.

To reconcile this with the scriptures you provided all I have to do is interpret the word "destruction" differently than you.

I believe God builds up what He destroys (in particular, living things).

I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: (Deuteronomy 32:39)

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response here...

True repentance does indeed come first. This is why the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. Can you show me dear friend the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked repent and receive eternal life after the second coming? If you cannot does this not concern you? According to the scriptures, the unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). John 3:36 BTW says.. " 36, He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." What you have written above is not biblical or does it support your the claims of Universalism that falsely teaches that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming.

It does not concern me at all. Revelation 22:17 is good enough for me as a last way out for all the previously unrepentant "wicked" people after all the doom & gloom and destruction. Note that there is no doom and gloom or mention of destruction or death thereafter.

The scripture in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 with context added says "
[7] To you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might. These are Gods' Word not mine and they do not say what you are saying dear Jord something to pray about.

I interpret that as that just the sheer presence of Christ will destroy them.

Your belief here dear friend is only your opinion and not based on the scriptures you are quoting from which say that the unrepentant wicked partake of the second death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8 and partake of the second death in the second resurrection where there is no eternal life *JOHN 5:28-29.

Your definition of second death is different from mine.

Have you already died? I believe I have (according to God's definitions):

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6)

This is what I think the second death will be like.

Not at all Jord, there is no assuming anything here.

Uh yes. Because there is no scripture either that says "there will be no more resurrections after this" or something like that.

Where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life.

Do you know the Book of Romans well? Do you believe all Israel will be saved? Even though they are enemies of the Gospel? How can that be right?

You have already been provided the scriptures which are Gods' Word not mine showing that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming do not receive eternal life but receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire.

We don't know what this means though, to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It could be good you know, it is God's work after all. And God is perfect. And we know that all things work together for the benefit of them that love God.

Universalism provides unbiblical claims that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life without scripture dispite the scriptures alone stating that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death. It is you who that is making claims that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming when there is no scripture. Therefore the presumption is on your side as you have no scripture to support your claims here.

Not true, Universalism is perfectly biblical.

I can come up with many verses supporting it, but that's at the risk of repeating my fellow believers and they obviously didn't get through to you either in 108 pages.

Implied means you have no scripture to answer this question do you. If you have no scripture just say so. I asked you to provide me a scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming when all the scriptures state that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire. This alone should be something to pray about as what your proposing is a contradiction of the Word of God and adding to the teachings of the book of Revelation to which we are warned against doing *Revelation 22:18-19. BTW Hebrews 8:10-12 is the new covenant promise to God's people from Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is not a promise to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

Hope this is helpful.

Are the unrepentant wicked part of all?

We know all things will be reconciled to God. That's clearly in the scriptures. Some may have to go through the Lake of Fire, whatever that means.

BNR32FAN · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM?

Hi all I have noticed in this forum that there is a handful of people going around and consistently promoting a dangerous false teaching called “Universalism” which is based on twisting and cherry picking the scriptures out of context to try and teach that God does not hold anyone accountable for sin and that all people will be eventually saved. I will post why I believe this to be a false teaching that is not biblical shortly.

Let’s first start with a definition of what the concept of Christian Universalism is.

Christian universalism refers to the idea that every human will be saved in a religious or spiritual sense. This specific idea being called universal reconciliation. (Source: wiki)

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? IF UNIVERSALISM IS TRUE DOES THAT MEAN GOD IS LYING WHEN HE SAYS NOT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED WHO CALL ME LORD LORD AND MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW WILL BE CHOSEN? I believe the answer to this is simple. Of course not.

What do the teachings of universalism (everyone will be saved no matter what they do) means to you? For me I do not believe in the Catholic teaching of eternal burning Hell this is not biblical but neither is the false teaching that all people will be saved regardless of sin.

For me this is a false teaching that is not biblical based on twisted scripture and a sign of the last days before JESUS returns. We are already seeing plagues and pestilence, wars and rumours of wars, famine like never before in quick succession. Today there are over 40,000 different form of Christianity most representing false teachings and false messengers (prophets) which are another sign of the end times *MATTHEW 24:24.

I believe it is time to get our houses in order and seek the Lord while he may be found.

For me Universalism is a false teaching as God’s salvation is conditional which we will look at shortly and a fulfillment of the scriptures…

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. [4], And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.

1 THESSALONIANS 5:2-3 [2], For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [3], For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I will show why I believe the scrpitures do not teach everyone will be saved regardless of sin (Universalism) in the coming posts from the scriptures alone adding as little comments as possible and let the scriptures do the talking.

(Q1.) WHAT HAPPENS TO THE UNREPENTANT WICKED AFTER THE SECOND COMING? (linked)

(Q2.) IS GOD'S SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING HIS WORD? (linked)

Friendly discussion please

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

I believe this teaching stems from people’s judgement and disapproval of God’s declaration of eternal punishment. Many of them just can’t seem to justify God’s declaration so they refuse to accept it and search for ways to disprove it instead of letting the scriptures do the teaching.

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I believe this teaching stems from people’s judgement and disapproval of God’s declaration of eternal punishment. Many of them just can’t seem to justify God’s declaration so they refuse to accept it and search for ways to disprove it instead of letting the scriptures do the teaching.

No such beast as "eternal" punishment in Fathers Barnyard!

There is aionios kolasis. There is plain old correction. There is punishment for wayward children leading to transformation.

Punishment has a purpose: it is NOT mindless torture!

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
Hello LoveGodsWord, nice to meet you too. I count myself blessed to share the scriptures with you too lol.

Then why laugh about it?

Jord Simcha said:
I have indeed not read the entire thread but I did read the first few pages and the last few pages, and I've read a number of similar discussions before.

Yes I gathered this from what you posted earlier.

Jord Simcha said:
I have a question. Do you do this yourself too, pray over the posts/thread? Else it would be a little hypocritical to ask others to do so, wouldn't it?

Well yes I do thanks for asking. So it is not hypocritical.

LoveGodsWord wrote: According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

Your response...

Jord Simcha said:
That's your interpretation, in my opinion, that there is no second chance after the second coming of Jesus (and/or after natural death?). Your view of this destruction isn't the same as mine. I believe it is the dying/destruction of the old man, as I said, you believe it is similar to irreversable death/annihilation of souls.

I did not provide an interpretation I only provided scripture that provides it's own interpretation word for word. According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

Jord Simcha said:
Just to be clear I am not gambling with my own salvation. I have worked it out with fear and trembling as the scriptures told me to do. I wouldn't advice anybody to gamble on the second death or go for it, there are many scriptures calling for immediate action. However, I do believe that all people yes even all creatures will be saved (and that is all based on the Word of God). This has greatly comforted me and relaxed me about the fate of my fellow-man not in the last place my own family members, who all aren't Christian.

Wheather you are gambling with your salvation or not I do not know and neither do I judge you. God knows if you are truely following him or not. Your salvation is between you and God not me and you. All I posted was that the teachings of Universalism in regards to the unrepentant wicked receiving eternal life after the second coming is a false doctrine of second chances that is not biblical and has its origins in Genesis 3:1-5 when the devil said to Eve in the garden of Eden you shall not surely die. Sound familiar?

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Note who Paul is talking to dear Jord. Who is the "US" is it believers; that is those who believe and follow God's Word or "Unbelivers" (the unrepentant wicked) that Paul is talking to when he says... "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love". The point here is that the "US" is in reference to the saints, the believers not the unbelievers or the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. God's Word is for God's people who are all those who believe and follow it (please read John 10:26-27 and Matthew 7:21-27). Keep in mind that the unrepentant wicked are "unbelievers" they do not believe and follow God's Word. God's Word is to those who believe and follow it. According to the scripture these are the Saints - the "US" being referred to in Ephesians 1:4.

Your response...

Jord Simcha said:
Maybe you're right it is believers only. Let's go with that.

Well thankyou dear friend praise be to our God who is our guide and teacher. I hope this can be a blessing to you. Context matters.

Jord Simcha said:
Now let's say I read it to my mother, who is not a Christian. Let's say I'd read Ephesians 1:3-16 to her. Let's say I would say to her about verse 13 that it doesn't include her, because she has not believed or asked God for the Holy Spirit yet.

If let's say she doesn't go on to read more or ask God for the Holy Spirit and/or faith in Jesus, does that make the Word of God empty and vain for her that she just heard, or is it still true and indeed a promise of God, that she belongs to "us", that she felt she belonged when she heard:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Will she be hearing from Jesus that she belonged to "them" instead, of which by the way, there is no mention?

I don't think so. I believe it is all of us.
(Not necessarily the greatest argument for universal salvation, I admit, but I'm just explaining myself).

I am sure you can easily tell her that this is Gods' Word and God's plan for those who believe and follow his Word right? What is the difference between "they" (unbelievers) and "us" (believers)? Yep the "US" believe and follow God's Word.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Once again lets look at the contexts again and how this scripture relates to other scripture within the bible. If we read the scriptures we must always remember that context is king also Gods' Word does not contradict itself. If we take an interpretation of the scripture and our interpretation of the scriptures contradicts other scripture we can know that we do not have a correct understanding of the scriptures and our interpretation of them is in error. If we find our interpretation of the scriptures contradicts other scriptures that teach the opposite to what we believe it should be a red flag to us that perhaps our understanding of the scripture is in error as Gods' Word does not contradict itself.

Ok with those thoughts in mind. Let's start of by looking at the context of 1 Timothy 4:10 and see how interpretation related to the rest of the scriptures and the bible.

The scripture says.. that "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."

The purpose of these scriptures is to show that Jesus has made provision for the sins of all mankind *John 1:29; John 3:16-17 and that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world foretold by the prophets *John 4:42. He is our only hope and shows God's love for all mankind (the world) by sending his only begotten son that whosoever "believes" on him should not perish but have everlasting life. Note here that the context of John 3:17 is once again as it is to 1 Timothy 4:10 to those who "believe" which is conditional. Jesus is indeed the Saviour that God sent to save the whole world to save the world and it is to the whole world that this gospel must be preached *Matthew 26:13; 1 John 2:2 but according to the scriptures this salvation is conditional and only given to those who "believe and follow" Gods' Word.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
You're right, the Word of God doesn't contradict itself. So when it says saviour of all men or saviour of the world that's what God is and Jesus is. God can not call Himself saviour of all men and not save all men; I would protest. That is not a perfect God by any means. And God is perfect.Yes only believers are saved. But all men will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.

According to your interpretation of the scripture you believe that the unrepetant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming of Jesus. Yet there is not a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive eternal life. Yet it is the Word of God alone that says that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming are destroyed and receive the second death in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). There is too much scripture here that disagrees with the teachings of Universalism here. I suggest dear friend you carefully consider them. God's Word does not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures JESUS is indeed Saviour of the world and all mankind and has made provision for the salvation of all men. Gods' Word however does not teach anywhere that all the world will choose to accept the free gift of God's dear son that he purchased for us with his own blood. God's gift of Grace is conditional on faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. No faith = no grace and no grace = no salvation and no salvation means the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The Greek word used here for "specially" (1 Timothy 4:10) is G3122 μάλιστα is an adverb and means most (in the greatest degree), above all and chiefly. That is, God's desire is that for all the world to be saved *1 Timothy 2:4. The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means , "desires" God desires that all people in the world to be saved. But, not all people will be saved as the scriptures teach that God's invitation to the world of salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word *John 3:16; Matthew 7:21-27. According to the scriptures God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should receive a knowledge of the truth of his Word and come to repentance and turn to him *2 Peter 3:9; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. Psalms 115:3 NKJV For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11 Remember you said the Word of God doesn't contradict itself. God's plan: send Jesus to save the world (John 3:17). His desire is that all men come to the truth and be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4) Who can thwart it??? He does as He pleases. (Job 42:2, Psalms 115:3) He will be succesfull.

Soo this addresses the scriptures in the post you are responding to how??? I think what your not considering dear frend is that God does not force people into believing and following him. We are not robots. God has given us the power to choose to follow him as we believe and follow his Words. As posted earlier with too many scriptures Jesus has made provision for the whole world to be saved. Not all mankind will choose to be saved because men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither do they come to the light of Gods' Word lest their deeds be exposed *John 3:19. As posted earlier through the scriptures God's salvation to mankind is conditional on us believing and following what God says (too many scriptures already provided here linked).

LoveGodsWord said: ↑This scriptures do not say that all mankind will receive salvation but that Jesus is the Saviour for all mankind and has made provision for it through his life, death and resurrection. In context to the rest of the bible, salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word and John 3:16 is the context of John 3:17. God's free gift of grace is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word (scripture support here linked). According to the scriptures, those who do not believe and follow Gods' Word are not saved but condemned *Mark 16:16 and do not partake of the resurrection of eternal life *John 5:28-29 as the promise of God's salvation is to those who believe *John 3:16. Those who do not believe are condemned already in their unbelief *John 3:18-21.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
Yeah, and so was I, condemned, until I believed. That can change.

Indeed before the second coming. When JESUS proclaims before the second coming..

"He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is." - Revelation 22:11-12

His rewards are with him for the righteous and the unrepentant wicked. There are no more chances after the second coming.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). So no dear friend 1 Timothy 4:10 and John 3:17 when context is applied does not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
The fact that there is no explicit mention of a second chance after death or the second coming doesn't mean there won't be. God urges us to follow Jesus Christ as soon as possible but His desire which you mentioned to have all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved won't change, thus will remain, also after Jesus' Second Coming. So it wouldn't make sense for God to put a deadline on converting and personally, I don't see it.

The fact that there is no scripture that says that there is no second chances after the second coming is because the scriptures already provided to you specifically state (God's Word not mine) that the unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). God's Word is pretty clear here there is no need to assume anything.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Well thanks for your advice dear Jord but you are a little behind the times in this thread. All the so called scripture have already been addressed throughout the thread and when context is provided does not say what universalists claim they are saying. Also, you may wish to consider that even after 106 pages and 2100 + post there has not been a single scripture provided that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
Yeah no doubt these debates tend to be repetitive (this is the reason I took a little time off from the forum). My apologies if I'm repeating somebody else's arguments.

It's ok dear friend. There are a lot of pages and arguments already put forward and it is hard to want to sift through them all. It is getting a little repetitive I think. Though generally been a good reasonably friendly thread I think overall. I like everyone here even if I do not agree with what some people are teachings.

Jord Simcha said:
Has Revelation 22:17 been mentioned yet? This is after all mentions of the Lake of Fire. Who do you think the Bride is calling?

Possibly way back in the thread somewhere. I am not sure to be honest if I can remember specifically as we have touched a lot of the book of Revelation. In answer to your question we need to consider context again of Revelation 22:17 as after Revelation 22:15 we have Revelation 22:16-21 which is the closing of the book of Revelation with JESUS stating that he has sent his messenger (angel) to testify to John of the things written before hand for the Churches v16. Moving to v17 which says "And the Spirit and the bride (the pure Church) say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come (those who hear the call of the Church and Spirit): he that will, let him take the water of life freely (the Water of life is JESUS, the Word of God). This is a call to those who hear the Word of God to believe and follow it and become a part of the pure Church of God and to be born again of the Spirit of God. Then we move to v18 which is a warning not to add to the Words of the book of Revelation. Those doing so run the risk receiving the plagues of the book and losing their salvation v19. Jesus then proclaims he comes quickly and his grace is to the Saints v20-21.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
I'm not gambling at all. I worked out my own salvation with fear and trembling like I said. After my conversion I tried to convert people a lot, without any succes. Then I found out about universal salvation, all based on the Bible. Now I have faith. It's not a gamble.

As posted earlier your salvation is between you and God and I do not judge you. However, as shown through the scriptures in this thread, I believe that the teachings of "Universalism" is not biblical. That does not mean that I believe that God does not have his people within this teachings. I believe God has his people in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge that God has revealed to them. I believe that that hour is coming and now is however that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The teachings of Universalism contradict the bible. Try reconciling all the scriptures in the linked post above and what is written here if you disagree. If you cannot perhaps it is time to prayerfully reconsider what you believe. The teachings of Universalism has it's origins from GENESIS 3:1-5 do you know what that is?

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
I disagree wholeheartedly and claim that the Bible teaches universalism. To reconcile this with the scriptures you provided all I have to do is interpret the word "destruction" differently than you. I believe God builds up what He destroys (in particular, living things). I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: (Deuteronomy 32:39)

We will have to agree to disagree then. Every scripture that has been produced here by those in support of "Universalism in this thread I believe has been proven to be taken out of context leading to a wrong scripture application and interpretation. Let me know if you can find something you may disagree with and we can discuss it if you like. We have looked at the Greek for "destruction" in relation to scripture contexts it simply means to destroy, kill context is to God's vengence on his enemies and God's adversaries and to consume and devour until no more in the second death in the lake of fire. It is very clear in my view and then you have all these scriptures on the fate of the wicked here 80+ (non exhaustive) linked

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
It does not concern me at all. Revelation 22:17 is good enough for me as a last way out for all the previously unrepentant "wicked" people after all the doom & gloom and destruction. Note that there is no doom and gloom or mention of destruction or death thereafter.

Revelation 22:17 does not support Universlaism. As posted earlier looking at the context once more we need to consider context again of Revelation 22:17 as after Revelation 22:15 we have Revelation 22:16-21 which is the closing of the book of Revelation with JESUS stating that he has sent his messenger (angel) to testify to John of the things written before hand for the Churches v16. Moving to v17 which says "And the Spirit and the bride (the pure Church) say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come (those who hear the call of the Church and Spirit): he that will, let him take the water of life freely (the Water of life is JESUS, the Word of God). This is a call to those who hear the Word of God to believe and follow it and become a part of the pure Church of God and to be born again of the Spirit of God. Then we move to v18 which is a warning not to add to the Words of the book of Revelation. Those doing so run the risk receiving the plagues of the book and losing their salvation v19. Jesus then proclaims he comes quickly and his grace is to the Saints v20-21. Nothing here to support Universalism.

LoveGodsWord wrote: The scripture in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 with context added says "[7] To you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might. These are Gods' Word not mine and they do not say what you are saying dear Jord something to pray about.

your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
I interpret that as that just the sheer presence of Christ will destroy them.

Trouble is that this is only one of near 80+ scriptures that describe the fate of the unrepentant wicked linked that all disagree with you and you have no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming when these scriptures specifically state that the unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27. Something to pray about and consider dear friend.

Jord Simcha said:
Your belief here dear friend is only your opinion and not based on the scriptures you are quoting from which say that the unrepentant wicked partake of the second death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8 and partake of the second death in the second resurrection where there is no eternal life *JOHN 5:28-29.

Your response here...

Jord Simcha said:
Your definition of second death is different from mine. Have you already died? I believe I have (according to God's definitions): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6) This is what I think the second death will be like.

I believe you are mistaken here dear Jord. Why I say this is that our discussion here is what happens to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The difference (and you can check) to the scriptures we provide is that the scriptures I am sharing with you are all in context to the fate of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. All the scripture you have provided (and your friends) is to what happens before the second coming just like the scripture you provide here in Romans 6:6. The context of Romans 6 is to dying to the old man of sin and being free to walk in God's Spirit in newness of life to depart from sin through faith. The conext is to believers, the Saints not the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The unrepentant wicked after the second coming according to the scriptures partake of the second death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8 and partake of the second death in the second resurrection where there is no eternal life *JOHN 5:28-29
So in summary here all the scriptures your quoting are pre second coming. All the scriptures shared with you here in relation to the fate of the unrepentant wicked's context is to post second coming. Scripture context matters in regards to interpretation.

Jord Simcha said:
Do you know the Book of Romans well? Do you believe all Israel will be saved? Even though they are enemies of the Gospel? How can that be right?

Yes I believe all ISRAEL will be saved. God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant is simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Gentiles are now grafted in. There is no more JEW and Greek only believers and followers of God's Word and all are one in Christ.

Hope this is helpful.

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Then why laugh about it?

Oh, I just felt it was a little ironic, that's all.

Well yes I do thanks for asking. So it is not hypocritical.

Ok, great.

I prayed that God would protect me from deception about the Gospel a long time ago.

I did not provide an interpretation I only provided scripture that provides it's own interpretation word for word. According to the scriptures there is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (more scriptures there is too many linked). To believe otherwise when the God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming is gambling with ones salvation indeed.

Maybe not in that post, but I read enough of the thread to know that you believe in annihilation (which I can't reconcile with the reconciliation of all things to God).

Wheather you are gambling with your salvation or not I do not know and neither do I judge you. God knows if you are truely following him or not. Your salvation is between you and God not me and you. All I posted was that the teachings of Universalism in regards to the unrepentant wicked receiving eternal life after the second coming is a false doctrine of second chances that is not biblical and has its origins in Genesis 3:1-5 when the devil said to Eve in the garden of Eden you shall not surely die. Sound familiar?

Hope this is helpful

It only sounds familiar because you posted it earlier I think.

LoveGodsWord said:
Soo this addresses the scriptures in the post you are responding to how???

If that is your response to God's unthwartable plan I think I might leave this convo, with all due respect.

You just keep hammering home that there is no scripture describing the happy ending.

I will answer with that God will be all in all. Period.

I think what your not considering dear frend is that God does not force people into believing and following him. We are not robots. God has given us the power to choose to follow him as we believe and follow his Words. As posted earlier with too many scriptures Jesus has made provision for the whole world to be saved. Not all mankind will choose to be saved because men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither do they come to the light of Gods' Word lest their deeds be exposed *John 3:19. As posted earlier through the scriptures God's salvation to mankind is conditional on us believing and following what God says (too many scriptures already provided here linked).

Right. They won't come that they might have life. They will be destroyed. And raised up again. It must be, or a lot of verses become futile, such as:

Luke 2:10
Colossians 1:19-22
1 John 4:8
1 Corinthians 13:8
Acts 3:21
Philippians 2:10-11
Philippians 3:21
John 6:33
Romans 8:20-21
1 Corinthians 15:22
John 12:47

You get the gist.

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes I believe all ISRAEL will be saved. God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant is simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Gentiles are now grafted in. There is no more JEW and Greek only believers and followers of God's Word and all are one in Christ.

Oh so not all Jews will be saved according to you?

Der Alte · Jul 7, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
No such beast as "eternal" punishment in Fathers Barnyard!
There is aionios kolasis. There is plain old correction. There is punishment for wayward children leading to transformation.
Punishment has a purpose: it is NOT mindless torture!

I realize that most of the UR-ites posting in this forum will not read or respond to my posts but I continue to post in the hope that I might reach someone who is undecided, thinking about leaving or joining this group.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis?” etc.
…..In the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul, the same writer, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, in the same writing, below. Thus showing conclusively that "aionios" means "eternal/everlasting."

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. Whoever has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

Der Alte · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
It does not concern me at all. Revelation 22:17 is good enough for me as a last way out for all the previously unrepentant "wicked" people after all the doom & gloom and destruction. Note that there is no doom and gloom or mention of destruction or death thereafter....

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as is done here with Rev 22:17.

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of unrepentant people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Two more verses- The End.

Jord Simcha · Jul 7, 2020

Der Alte said:
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as is done here with Rev 22:17.

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of unrepentant people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”

Fair enough. This however convinces me more that the second death is not in fact death, because death shall be no more.

Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Two more verses- The End.

Yeah, those who are "without" is who I believe are being called, by the way I think that we discussed this before.

But, how do you interpret inheriting all things?

Let's assume for a minute that you are an overcomer, (or will be,) I assume you believe you will be one of them.

How do you see inheriting all things? Could it exclude some of your family members, pets, for example?

Der Alte · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
Fair enough. This however convinces me more that the second death is not in fact death, because death shall be no more....

I believe what Jesus, Himself said in Matthew 25:46.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
.....The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
Fair enough. This however convinces me more that the second death is not in fact death, because death shall be no more.

The Lord Jesus Christ swallows all death, every aspect of thanantos into Himself.

He, the Master of reconciliation, holds the patent!

It is called the Heavenly Big Gulp.

"Death and the grave were cast into the Lake of Fire, and Rev. 20:l4 distinctly says "this IS the second death."

Let me ask any thinking believer that if Scripture means that these enemies of mankind, "death and the grave" are going to die the second time?

You will say no.

Then why be inconsistent enough to insist that it means nothing but a literal death the second time for mankind.

By this Scripture, you may see at once that it is not the number of deaths that Yahweh is indicating but the kind of death or character of the destruction. I notice that writers on this subject who freely give a literal second death to human sinners are silent about "death and the grave" going into the same punishment, although the Bible boldly declares it."

The Second Death, by A. P. Adams

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2020

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

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THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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He’s a Way of life

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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