The Falling of Rome

[Rik]

Mexico = Visigoths

Canada = Vandals

 

[mindlight]

Rome was the power of its age. It stood for a thousand years if you include the Byzantine period even longer - 700BC- 1453AD. But it was only the dominant power for about 400 years.0-400AD.

Dominance of course has to be qualified as Rome was never a global power like America, Britain, Spain, Portugal, Holland or France was. It had control over a good portion of the Mediterranean coast but never the Germanic parts of Europe or the Persian empire for instance. If you had asked an Anglo or Saxon or a Persian or a China man if Rome ruled the world they would probably have laughed or cut your head off!

So Rome is not really in the same league as USA now or the British empire was or the Spanish empire at its height either.

As to its fall:

1) There was a failure of governance - although there were some good emperors before the end
2) A de facto division between a rich East and a poorer West which led in to a split. Constantines building of Constantinople in the East was as much a symptom of broader movements as it was a initiator of them. IN the end one could argue that the East decided the West was not sufficiently profitable to be worth defending or reconquering?
3) There was decadence but also considerable growth in Christian churches e.g. Was Rome decadent under Constantine!? I do not think so. The growth of Christianity ironically meant a reluctance to glory in war and an overdependence on mercenaries and foreigners for the empires defence - but Was Spain any different for most of its history?

Maybe the idea died before the reality. Gods kingdom looked larger than the idea or reality of Rome had ever been and loyalty to Rome became less passionate as a result.

America is considerably more united than Rome was in its last days and wealth is not overly concentrated in one place. Its neighbours are not particularly aggressive or strong. It shares a common language although a Spanish republic in the South is not impossible on present trends I suppose. Its unity is not founded ina blasphemous vision of its own special place in the world and Christian devotion is coupled with military service for instance.

However America has new threats not faced by Rome - e.g. nuclear or biochemical holocausts. Hurricanes in the South and Earthquakes in the West and a possible ice age in the North and centre are all possible nation transforming events.

Economic collapse could change things radically and prepare the way for a fall - big trade deficits and debt do not bode well but are not currently nation threatening. Its the trends that are worrying rather than the numbers at present.

Moral trends are both good and bad depending on which segment of the population you refer to.

Every nation has its time, I quite like America being where it is, the alternatives are not that appetizing but America liek the British Empire sits in the hands of God to raise or bring down as he pleases.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

God forbid that America ever falls but if and when America falls do u think that it will fall like ROme?

You mean like with the western US falling to barbarian invasions while the eastern half survives intact for several more centuries?

 

[GoSeminoles!]

The growth of Christianity ironically meant a reluctance to glory in war....

If I had a dollar for every year the Byzantine empire was not at war, I might have enough money for lunch.

 

[Ghoulslime]

The romans shouldn't have been bad to Jesus!

 

[mindlight]

If I had a dollar for every year the Byzantine empire was not at war, I might have enough money for lunch.

true there was constant warfare in Byzantine times - but in the last days of the united empire my point had to do with who was doing the fighting on Romes behalf. The fact was that it was not Romans it was mercenaries and standards had fallen. This made the empire vulnerable as its best people did not consider the career of defending it as a worthwhile one to pursue.

 

[AphraB]

The Roman Empire in the WEST fell. The rest of the Empire didn't. It carried on for quite a while in the East and it could be argued that the Roman Empire only truly ceased to exist in 1806 when the title of "Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire" was abolished. While many of the Eastern provinces fell to Islam in the early 7th century, Constantinople remained the Empire in the East until 1453 when it finally capitulated to the Turks.

What caused the fall of the Western Empire? Incursions from the East, an area too large to adequately control and tax (given the communication methods of the period) a turning away from earthly considerations to spiritual ones, divisions within the army, and inadequacy and corruption.

Interestingly, those 'barbarians' who overran the Western provinces adopted the titles, offices, and procedures of their Roman predecessors.

 

[platzapS]

With modern communications leading to increased globalization, I think we're more likely to be slowly assimilated into a World Federation than experience a dramatic fall.

 

[Paladin Dave]

Yes, America is gonna fall, and I intend to be in Sweden when it happens.

But seriously, if it does fall, it will ultimately be its own fault. I doubt it will be one mistake that causes it, more like when you combine lousy foreign policy with an overstretched army, corrupt government, lazy and immoral people, and bad economy, SOMEONE is gonna find a way in and break the camel's back.

 

[Douger]

lousy foreign policy with an overstretched army, corrupt government, lazy and immoral people, and bad economy,

when "Decline and Fall of the American Empire" is written those will probably be the reasons given in the conclusion.
reputation for you

 

[Paladin Dave]

Seriously? I was almost afraid I was gonna get jumped on... I don't know the "crowd" of this section all that well, so I couldn't be sure if I would get high fived or pile drived... driven... whatever... Why must rhymes always disagree with grammar? Thanks for the rep.

 

[Reazzurro90]

God forbid that America ever falls but if and when America falls do u think that it will fall like ROme?

Rome suffered a long, intense decline. It was eroded by invasions and political and economic collapse, and eventually, the city of Rome was taken itself, and finally the emperor overthrown.

When America falls, it will be violent and quick. Since Americans do not believe that America can suffer any real danger, everyone's aloof to the unthinkable.
People thought the same of the Titanic, but we all know what happened there.

 

[OhhJim]

Ok, what will America look like after the "fall"? Who will live here? What kind of government will it have? What will become of us?

 

[SH89]

Ok, what will America look like after the "fall"? Who will live here? What kind of government will it have? What will become of us?

Who says America will have to fall?

We are a 11 trillion dollar economy, in which we spend 458 Billion dollars a year towards are armed forces. America wont fall anytime soon.

 

[AphraB]

Who says America will have to fall?

We are a 11 trillion dollar economy, in which we spend 458 Billion dollars a year towards are armed forces. America wont fall anytime soon.

Beware of hubris!

Rome lasted for over a thousand years, the British Empire for a couple of hundred, the Ottoman for over 500. Of course the Third Reich which was to have lasted for a thousand was gone in a mere 12!

No Empire lasts forever and America will be no different from other Empires before it.

 

[SH89]

Beware of hubris!

Rome lasted for over a thousand years, the British Empire for a couple of hundred, the Ottoman for over 500. Of course the Third Reich which was to have lasted for a thousand was gone in a mere 12!

No Empire lasts forever and America will be no different from other Empires before it.

You have a point, but who is to say that America is a empire?

 

[RiverSalado]

Well i think part of the reason why it fell was because of corruption, although I think that the fact that it changed from a republic to an empire also led to its ultimate downfall, because in an empire, you have a lot riding on the abilities of a single man, if the emperor is a very competent one, then everything goes well, if the emperor is not that good, then things quickly fall apart, whereareas under the republic, if the consul was not capable of doing the job, then he theoretically could be replaced, also, during the time of the Roman Republic, there seemed to be a large supply of very good generals to take charge in times of crisis, like Scipio Africanus during the Second Punic War, and Marius, who instituted the Marian reforms, during the time of the late empire, there simply was no such talent to be found to fight against the barbarian hordes, also, the fact that Rome's economy really fell down the gutter after the year 400 also did not help the empire's cause, the fact that the empire depended so much on barbarian federates, and not on Romans for its defence during its waning years also led to its collapse.

 

[Tangnefedd]

All empires have their day, which is good. The British empire was nothing to be proud about imo. We poked our nose in where it wasn't wanted, when we got out we left the people, who had been dependent on us, to govern themselves and chaos was the result in many places!

America, with Dubya at the helm, is likely to go into a steady decline as it has lost the respect of most of the countries in the world!

 

[AphraB]

You have a point, but who is to say that America is a empire?

Well the administration may like to pretend that it is merely a group of federal states going around the world doing the dirty work no one else wants to take on, but its posture and its involvement in anything that affects its geo-political interests suggest otherwise.

 

[stubby42]

You have a point, but who is to say that America is a empire?

Because almost from the start it conquored nations:

American Samoa (1900-)

Cuba (1899-1902)

(now independent; however, Guantanamo Bay remains under the control of the U.S. military)

Dominican Republic ( occupied 1916-1924) (now independent)

Guam (189

Haiti ( occupied 1915-1934)

Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (1944-1990)

(now comprising the independent states of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau; as well as one US commonwealth — the Northern Mariana Islands)

Panama Canal Zone (1903-1979) (now part of Panama)

Philippines (1898-1946) (now independent)

Puerto Rico (1898-1952) (now a US commonwealth)

U.S. Virgin Islands (1917-)

Also Japan and Germany can also be counted as territories previously a part of the American empire. Empire doesnt atcually mean to directly rule another country, on the British model they often used what they called home rule, I.e they used the locals of a nation to run it whilst they had a military presences and over all control.

And in many ways America in itself can be seen as an empire from the very begining, its a well known fact that the territory didnt even belong to the Americans in the first place.

America is an Empire in denial.

I keep quoting this book but if you read any book, its the most important book you'll ever read. Colossus, rise and fall of the american empire.