the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[yashua]

Oh, why yes! I see how well you discern context....but let me give you a bit of a clue here to help you along in discerning the text taken from my original statement........



That any clearer for you? Don't bother answering as that you have just hit my ignore list

I completly agree that we should not get into heated arguments over the "Pagan idea of eternal punishment" (by the way that is where the idea comes from and it would do "christians good to study to show themselves approved when talking about this blasphemy against God)

Here is a short list for starters

The Inventors of Hell
1. Polybius, the ancient historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever
fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is
no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the
invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted
judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these
notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.
2. Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as
true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii
3. Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he
praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a
most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace."
Hist., I 19.
4. Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by
the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those
terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms
imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of
women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead
them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition,
or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder,
the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables,
as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as
scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B. I
5. Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean, after stating that the doctrine
of rewards and punishments after death is necessary to society, proceeds as
follows: "For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when
such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds
with false relations, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is a
necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments: as
that the soul changes its habitation; that the coward is ignominiously
thrust into the body of a woman; the murderer imprisoned within the form of
a savage beast; the vain and inconstant changed into birds, and the slothful
and ignorant into fishes."
6. Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says
respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments. And Strabo says
that "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future
judgments of hell" (Hades). And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to
deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.
Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his
serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting
them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible
world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to
restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests
against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making
cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death,
and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he
regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some
cases, but difficult to manage in others.
7. Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them
with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them
"fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."
8. Seneca says: "Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the
darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are
all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us
with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and
Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac
fabulis).
9. Aristotle. "It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times
to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine
(Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the
mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and
for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state."
Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11
(The above quotes were taken from "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of
Endless Punishment" by Thomas Thayer.)
The question this book began with is now, I trust, answered by a sufficient
number of witnesses to settle the matter. Hell was invented by men of power
who felt it was the only way to hold the masses of ignorant people under
their power. It is the same today. If the people of power today REALLY
believed the myths they are perpetuating, they themselves would behave MUCH
differently than they are. Seeing their own corrupt behavior should make it
plain to anyone, these political, business, and especially religious leaders
have not the slightest faith in these things themselves; they do not think
them at all necessary to regulate their own lives, or keep them in order;
but it is for the average people, the dumb sheep who must be restrained with
fears of great terror in the afterlife. One cannot help noting the
resemblance between those wise men of old and some of our own day, who seem
so anxious to maintain the doctrine on the ground that it is necessary to
restrain men from sin. I think it is time we "dumb sheep" wise up and get
out from under the myths these men of corruption have used to hold the
fetters of our minds in check and check ourselves in at the sheepfold of the
Good Shepherd who knows how to restrain HIS sheep with love, not fear. What
do you think?
Quotes from Christian Perpetuators of the Mythology of Hell:
The following quotes are from Christian leaders who used the pagan concept of Hell
to keep the poor masses in subjection to power-hungry and often very evil political
and religious men and women. The Church has often been a more effective means
of enslaving the masses than military might. There are hundreds of thousands of other
Church leaders throughout the centuries who could be quoted expressing similar thoughts
to the ones below Compare these words to Jesus' words to the poor of this world and it
should become very obvious from which spirit these men were speaking. Satan has
controlled the Church for a long time. It's time for a great change.
Tertullian
"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how
laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the
lowest abyss of darkness…"
Jonathan Edwards
"Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the
tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!"
"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and
gratitude of the saints of heaven."
Thomas Aquinas
"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more
abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the
damned is granted them."
Jeremy Taylor
"Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before
their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes
in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst…"
Lengthier quotes:
Tertullian
"How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many
proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many
magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the
Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their
deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their
own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then
ever before from applause."
Jeremy Taylor of the Church of England
"The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in
a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and
organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings."
Jonathan Edwards (A Calvinist of the "Great Awakening" fame. Newspapers
reported people leaving his sermons and committing suicide from the fear
he instilled in them.)
"The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire,
in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest,
in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast
waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they
shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes,
their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever
be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and
elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively
sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one
age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions
of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and
never to be delivered."
John Calvin (Who had some of his theological enemies burned to death in
green slow-burning wood.):
Calvin describes hell as: "Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they
shall feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and
penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken
by the weight of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more
tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors."
The Reverend C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon Sermon on the Resurrection
of the Dead:
"When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it,
but at the day of judgment they body will join they soul, and then thou wilt
have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused
with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie,
asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all they veins roads for the feet of
pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play
his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable Lament.'''
(Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
Night Thoughts by Young
"Father of Mercies! Why from silent earth didst thou awake and curse me
into birth, tear me from quiet, banish me from night, and make a thankless
present of Thy light, push into being a reverse of Thee and animate
a clod with misery?"
(Quoted in "The Bible Hell" by J.W. Hanson, page 28)
Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R in his book The Sight of Hell
(A Catholic book for children)
"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you.
He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping.
The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered,
from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make
your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your
body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make
your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body
be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million
of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in he
evening, a child is just going into hell. To-morrow evening, at seven
o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing.
The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child
is burning. Go in week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the
same answer, it is burning; Go in a year and asks the same answer
comes--it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question,
the answer is just the same--it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever,
you will always get the same answer--it is burning in the fire.)
-- (Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
More from Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R
"The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven.
Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about
in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little
feet on the floor."
(The Sight of Hell)
(Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
Reverend E.B. Pusey, D.D.
"Gather in one, in your mind, an assembly of all those men and women,
from whom, whether in history or in fiction, your memory most shrinks,
gather in mind all that is loathsome, most revolting * * * conceive the
fierce, fiery eyes of hate, spite, frenzied rage, ever fixed on thee, looking
thee through and through with hate * * * hear those yells of blaspheming
concentrated hate, as they echo along the lurid vault of hell; everyone
hating everyone * * * Yet a fixedness in that state in which the hardened
malignant sinner dies, involves, without any further retribution of God,
this endless misery."
(Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
Night Thoughts by Young from "The Bible Hell" by J.W. Hanson, page 28
"Father of Mercies! Why from silent earth didst thou awake and curse
me into birth, tear me from quiet, banish me from night, and make a
thankless present of Thy light, push into being a reverse of Thee and
animate a clod with misery?"
(The list will be expanded as time goes by. If the reader knows of any
other quotes which would be appropriate to add to this list, please
send them giving detailed references so they can be verified.
Send them to: tentmaker@ktis.net)
References:
#1 Universalism--The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its
First Five Hundred Years by Dr. J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
#2 The Bible Hell by Dr. J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
#3 Arguments in Favor of Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/InFavorCh20.html
#4 100 Scriptural Proofs Jesus is the Savior of the world
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

 

[yashua]

Bleachers I agree with you on your thoughts here. I am still unsure of the seemingly contradiction of being burnt up to....tormented day and night forever and ever. It seems to stand alone or I am missing context elsewhere.

Pilgrim 33, have any ideas that you wish to share on this?

For one of the best discussions on the "Lake of fire" visit this mans site L. Ray Smith - Exposing Those Who Contradict "I promise it will be the biggest eye opener you will ever read in your whole christian life"

 

[yashua]

Yes, 20:15 does say they too, were cast into the LOF.

Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

However, in these verses, we still have a group going into the LOF, as are those who are not found in the Book of Life. That book would be the one Jesus has given eternal life to. The other books are opened, and people are judged from their works....



Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.


As all those are in the LOF, I must conclude that it is forever and ever/eternal.

I also posted that commentary from e-sword just for the purpose (as stated in that post) to show that, unless there is a conclusive demonstration shown in the bible (nearby in the context of these verses), I'm left with what the Bible has to say.

These are those in the second resurrection, those not in Christ Jesus. As we cannot be judged unto eternal life by our works, but only through Jesus, can we have eternal life. These verses also show the conclusion and finality of evil.

hope that helps

<><

I think It would do you much good to read these articles "If you believe in
studying to show youself approved"
Is "Everlasting" Scriptural? NEW
Analytical Study of Words
"The Greek Word Aion--Aionios Translated Everlasting--Eternal in the Holy Bible"
Olethron Aionian (Eternal Destruction)
Time and Eternity

 

[Dottie]

And I will add, that whether you are able to wrap your brain around this fact or not, and accept that JOHN LIGHTFOOT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED HEBRAIST, does not change the fact that he was.

I am not quite sure how one goes about editing posts, but I would like to add to my quote above:
"And I will add, that whether you are able to wrap your brain around this fact or not, and accept that JOHN LIGHTFOOT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED HEBRAIST, does not change the fact that he was", and draws from his vast knowledge of Hebraism very effectively in his commentary on Luke 16:19-31.

 

[yashua]

Believe it or not, I agree and am concerned. I fear these things too. Not that I believe in the fear factor of sharing the gospel. (This is not how I believe God shares it with us) I can see validity on both sides. I have grown accustomed to saying a total separation from God, because I am not sure of what this truly "consists" of except for that.

But I cannot consciously sit by when I see that scripture is contradictory, nor can I cop-out and settle with ignoring that fact. I must investigate.

For how do we share the gospel if we do not have a good understanding of it ourselves? I cannot consciously respond to someone asking why the Bible said the world and the works therin will be burned UP. Yet on the other hand they will be thrown into a lake of fire burning forever and ever in torment. So which is it? Not to mention all the other verses mentioned here. Yet saying a total separation from God seems to be sitting on a fence. And we all know who owns that.

I don’t believe Hell Fire needs to be preached for understanding of Gods love and mercy. However He is Just and that is equally important. I don't agree that it underestimates the pains of hell, perhaps it is telling us just that we need to be sharing the gospel in a different manner? Because this is not the point.

Please read:

When I inform Christians who are not aware that there have been many English Bible translations produced which do not contain the teaching of a Hell of everlasting punishment, one of their first responses is often, “But there has to be a Hell – God is Just and Holy.” Somehow these Christians seem to have to split God in two. One side of Him is merciful, forgiving and kind whose love never comes to an end and does not fail. This side of God is all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present and nothing can withstand this side of God’s will. This side of God is absolutely sovereign. He knows the beginning from the end, laid out a perfect plan which will come to a perfect end. On this side of the traditional view of God which makes Him a split personality, it is easy to read the man dozens of Scripture verses that speak of Universal Salvation. On this side of God, surely, there's no problem for Jesus to become just like the Bible says, truly the “savior of the world.“

But then they take a couple of other attributes of God and turn Him into a Dr. Hekyl and Mr. Hyde! “God is also Just and Holy,” they say and this demands a Hell in which billions upon billions of human beings created in God’s image must be forever punished in ways the human mind cannot fathom. This punishment must be eternal without hope of restoration. So now God has a split personality. Somehow, these Christians seem to manage holding both of these ideas in their minds at the same time without going insane. Somehow, these poor deluded souls actually believe this makes sense. God HAS to send billions to a place of everlasting tortures in order to be “Just and Holy.” God CAN desire to save all mankind, has the means to do so and could have developed a plan to do so, but this quirk in his personality, this “just and holy“ side of Him thwarts His true will. God's GOT to carry a big stick, a stick that reaches throughout eternity. That's justice they say, that's holiness.

Tell me, dear earthling, if you were God, do you think you would have to relegate everyone on the earth to a place of misery simply for having been born into a world of sin and death in order to be just and holy? There are millions of Christians who have been taught this and believe it. The Doctrine of Original Sin is contained in many Christian denominations. Simply for being born into this world, a child is worthy of being thrown into literal flames for all eternity. Thousands of famous, well-known church leaders have taught this for many centuries. All of us have that stain of original sin on us, they say, and sin cannot enter heaven. Therefore, everyone who has not been chosen to be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb will be thrown into a lake of fire.

Tell me, again, dear fellow human being, who might send your child to a corner of the room for a few minutes for some small infraction, do you think you have to send your child to a place of everlasting burnings for punishment to make yourself “just and holy?” How many times would the child have to do something before you finally get so ticked you boot him/her to eternal flames? How many times did Jesus tell YOU to forgive your enemies? Hmmm? Personally, I know of no sane mother who would ever think of sending her children to eternal tortures for any infraction. A sane mother couldn't do it. She is made in God's image. And a “sane“ God couldn't, wouldn't and didn't do it either! The Doctrine of Hell truly turns Christians insane if they honestly walk out their beliefs. Most Christians don't really walk out their beliefs, they become hypocrites. Most Christians backfile their beliefs about Hell so they can at least function. Look if you saw the world daily as you have been taught on Sunday morning and midweek Bible study, you'd go bonkers! And I've spoken to many Christians who DID you bonkers. And some committed suicide...from the teaching of Hell. Imagine walking through the world looking deep into those around you and carrying the weight in your soul that if you don't open your mouth and wallet and beg people to get saved, the next moment, they might be in eternity screaming from the torment...forever. If you saw a house on fire with a child at the window trying to get out, wouldn't you risk your life to try to save it? Well, there are millions of souls, who, according to tradition are in that condition everyday all around you. But you don't look at them like that, do you? Why? Because it would drive you to spend your time begging them to get saved. You'd look like a religious nut. They would thrown you into an insane asylum for being crazy. THAT is what would happen IF you lived what you believe as a hell-believing Christian. This is proof most people don't live what they say they believe and financially support. Most Christians live the life of a hypocrite and since most of their Christain neighbors play the same game, they feel comfortable with it despite what Jesus had to say about hypocrisy.

Does punishment have to be forever in order to make one “Just and Holy?”
Look at the justice systems of the world, we try (and often fail) to suit the punishment to the crime. There is NO crime committed in finite time that deserves infinite punishment, NO crime. Yet hundreds of thousands of Christians leaders feed a couple billion Christians this lie, year after year.
Does "everlasting punishment" make God Holy And Just?

Of course not! There is no rational or heavenly reason why God’s punishments and corrections have to be of an eternal length in order to make Himself Just and Holy. As a matter of fact, according to most of the world who has rejected the rotten image of God the church has perpetrated upon humanity for 1600 years, the Doctrine of Hell does NOT make God just and holy in their eyes, it makes Him look more like the character the church calls SATAN!!!

And the fact of the matter is, THAT is where this horrible teaching came from, from the devil himself. And those Christians and their leaders who teach such wickedness are doing the Devil’s work, not the work of Christ. I say this again, those Christians who teach that in order for God to be just and holy, He must send most of mankind to eternal damnation, are NOT preaching the “good news” of the kingdom of God, they are spreading Satan’s greatest lie!
In conclusion, can God still be Holy and Just without a Hell of everlasting punishment? Could you? Think about it. Sometimes the religious dogmas, traditions of men and creeds we have been brought up with are so ridiculously stupid we are afraid to call them what they are because they are wrapped in the coverings of “God's stuff.“ Well, the teaching of Hell is worse than stupid, it's downright blasphemous and it's time to stop excusing people who peddle it. If you are preaching it, you're a liar who got this teaching from the father of lies, Satan. Furthermore you're character assasinating God's true image. Stop it!

 

[yashua]

I am not afraid of where I am going. I am afraid that my neighbors and friends might accept the retoric of some Universalist. Ultimately, I believe we are all responsible for our own life choices unless we place them in the hands of the Almighty ourselves...

Please read these articles "the truth is out there"
I am not a "universalist" thats just another division in the body they have their good and bad just like all other 30,000 denominations in america
The type of universalism most people "see" or "Hear" is not true universalism,ultimate reconciliation,total redemption, or whatever you want to label it. I am a believer in the salvation of all things as the scripture states.

Bible Threatenings Explained
Early Christian View of the Savior
The Doctrine of Scriptural Retribution
Analytical Study of Words
The Second Death And The Restitution Of All Things by Andrew Jukes ...

 

[yashua]

Apparantly the word "everlasting, for ever and ever" seem to have different meanings, depending on context, just as the word "love" has. Notice the differences, and specially when it comes to God's everlasting kingdom, and everlasting judgements. Of special interest, perhaps is Isa. 65:17.



everlasting in this context:

G166
&#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
aio&#772;nios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

<><

Please read if you would like to understand the truth better.
Time and Eternity
Does "ForeverS AND EverS" Make sense to you?
Olethron Aionian (Eternal Destruction)
Analytical Study of Words
Bibles That Do Not Teach Eternal Punishment
Is "Everlasting" Scriptural? NEW

 

[gort]

Yashua quote:

I completly agree that we should not get into heated arguments over the "Pagan idea of eternal punishment" (by the way that is where the idea comes from and it would do "christians good to study to show themselves approved when talking about this blasphemy against God)

I was'nt aware Jesus was pagan?

Lending credence to Romans and Greeks regarding "gods" and such really does'nt do much for me.

neither does L.Ray Smith.

<><

 

[gort]

For those that feel the need to ridicule the Bible, and blame it all on the translators who used "pagan" words for sheol, the pit, hell, and such, you now have the task of taking those Greek and Hebrew words and translate them into English words, commonly used for sheol, the pit, hell, and such, in these other languages, so that by making them line up with the english language, we will have a much better understanding.

Can y'all do that?

thanx

<><

 

[Dottie]

BISHOP LIGHTFOOT

Bible Attacker

LIGHTFOOT, JOSEPH BARBER (1828—1889), English theologian and bishop of Durham, was born at Liverpool on the 13th of April 1828. . . . .

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/bishop_lightfoot.htm

Keep on lady, you might get something right sooner or later, but I doubt it. Next time be more specific. As I said I NEVER say anything I can't back up. But keep on keepin' on, I am not the one making myself look like a fool.

Hold it there, sir. Your comment was as follows:

Please feel free to presume to lecture me on anything, anytime you feel lucky. You have your 1-2 little pieces of this and that and you think it proves something. You can do what you like, but I NEVER say anything I can’t back up. And usually from more than one source, as in this case.

My comment was:

Then I guess you won't have any problem backing up your ridiculous statement that John Lightfoot wrote in the 19th century, will you?

And you came back with: "BISHOP LIGHTFOOT Bible Attacker
LIGHTFOOT, JOSEPH BARBER (1828—1889), English theologian and bishop of Durham, was born at Liverpool on the 13th of April 1828. . . . ."

So here I sit, still waiting for you to back up your ridiculous statement that John Lightfoot wrote in the 19th century.

BTW, Thanks for the XOFC site. I haven't had time to really get into it yet, but just by taking a quick scan of it, this site seems to have all the answers. No wonder your so smart.

If anybody is going to write about any historical event that occurred before his lifetime he must, there is no way he can write factually without, consulting primary sources from the target time period.

And that is exactly what John Lightfoot does. He consults primary sources, not the Jewish Encyclopedia.

So you have your 1-2 "sources" which say exactly what you want to hear, just tickles your assumptions and presuppsitions, and when someone presents a standard Jewish Biblical reference work, prepared by groups of Hebrew scholars, referring to dozens of historical resources, you don't even read it, just blow it off with LOL!

As I said you are not interested in the truth you just find enough hoohah to make it appear you are proving your false assumptions and presuppositions. E.g. see comments on Kalos, later.

I did "see comments on Kalos, later", and I see in it your usual razz ma tazz, know it all attitude, once again displayed.

Please explain to me how the fact that there were people in Jerusalem, in the 17th century, who, probably dishonestly, claimed to know the location of the rich man's house, proves anything about Luke 16:19-31?

It doesn't prove anything about Luke 16:19-31. Who said it did?

What do the beliefs of the Rhemists, evidently some Christian sect, that was contemporary with this Lightfoot, prove about Luke 16:19-31? Absolutely nothing!

Lightfoot refers to the Jesuits as being Rhemists, because they were adherents to the Douay- Rheimes Bible. (spelled also Douai-Reims)Rheimes - Rhemists; get it?

Jesuits or Society of Jesus (Jesuits), religious order of men in the Roman Catholic church, founded by Saint Ignatius of Loyola in 1534 and confirmed by Pope Paul III in 1540. The motto of the order is Ad majorem Dei gloriam (Latin, "to the greater glory of God"), and its object is the spread of the church by preaching and teaching or the fulfillment of whatever else is judged the most urgent need of the church at the time. Education has been its chief activity almost from the outset, and it has made notable contributions to scholarship in both theology and the secular disciplines.

Again, the beliefs of the Rhemists prove nothing about Luke 16:19-31. Who said they did?

 

[Dottie]

What is the source for this? Even, assuming, there is some Jewish writing that had some story involving angels it proves absolutely nothing about Luke 16:19-31? NOTHING! NADA! ZILCH!

With the hope that the larger picture will help your comprehension skills, I will post the rest of John Lightfoot's commentary on Luke 16:19-31.



["We have here, therefore, if we will make up the story out of both Talmuds, another not very unlike this of ours. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Rabbi Judah is conveyed by angels; in the Babylonian, he is placed in Abraham's bosom: neither would the Glosser have doubted in the least either of the thing, or of the way of expressing it, so as to have fled to any new exposition, had he not mistook the person concerning whom these words were uttered. He supposeth them spoken of Adah Bar Ahavah (wherein he is deceived): and because the times do not fall in right, if they were to be understood of his death, he therefore frames a new interpretation of his own, whiles, in the mean time, he acknowledgeth that others expound it otherwise.

We may find out, therefore, the meaning of the phrase according to the common interpretation, by observing, first, that it was universally believed amongst the Jews, that pure and holy souls, when they left this body, went into happiness, to Abraham. Our Saviour speaks according to the received opinion of that nation in this affair, when he saith, "Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham."

Give me leave to transcribe a story a little more largely than usual: "There was a woman the mother of seven martyrs (so we find it also 2 Maccabees 7)." When six of her sons were slain, and the youngest brought out in order to it, though but a child of two years and a half old, "the mother saith to Caesar, 'by the life of thy head, I beseech thee, O Caesar, let me embrace and kiss my child.' This being permitted her, she plucked out her breasts and gave it suck. The she; 'By the life of thy head, I entreat thee, O Caesar, that thou wouldest first kill me and then the child.' Caesar answered, 'I will not yield to thee in this matter, for it is written in your own law, The heifer or sheep, with its young one, thou shalt not kill on the same day.' To whom she; 'O thou foolishest of all mortals, hast thou performed all the commands, that this only is wanting?' He forthwith commands that the child should be killed. The mother running into the embraces of her little son, kissed him and said, 'Go thou, O my son, to Abraham thy father, and tell him, Thus saith my mother, Do not thou boast, saying, I built an altar, and offered my son Isaac: for my mother hath built seven altars, and offered seven sons in one day,'" &c.

This woman, questionless, did not doubt of the innocence and purity of the soul of this child, nor of its future happiness, (for we will suppose the truth of the story) which happiness she expresseth sufficiently by this, that her son was going to his father Abraham. There are several other things to the same purpose and of the same mould, that might be produced, but let this suffice in this place: however, see notes upon verse 24.

Now what this being in Abraham's bosom may signify amongst the Jews, we may gather from what is spoken of the manners and the death of this R. Judah; concerning whom it is said, This day he sits in Abraham's bosom. "Rabbi Judah had the toothache thirteen years; and in all that time there was not an abortive woman throughout the whole land of Israel." For to him it is that they apply those words of the prophet, "He was a man of sorrows, and hath borne our griefs." And for these very pains of his, some had almost persuaded themselves that he was the Messiah. At length this toothache was relieved by Elias, appearing in the likeness of R. Chaijah Rubbah, who, by touching his tooth, cured him. When he died, and was to be buried on the evening of the sabbath, there were eighteen synagogues accompanied him to his grave. "Miracles were done; the day did not decline, till every one was got home before the entrance of the sabbath." Bath Kol pronounced happiness for all those that wept for him, excepting one by name; which one when he knew himself excepted, threw himself headlong from the roof of the house, and so died, &c. But to add no more, for his incomparable learning and piety he was called R. Judah the holy. And whither would the Jew think such a one would go when he went out of this world? Who amongst them, when it was said of him that was in Abraham's bosom, would not without all scruple and hesitancy understand it, that he was in the very embraces of Abraham, (as they were wont at table one to lie in the other's bosom) in the exquisite delights and perfect felicities of paradise? not in 'a lake without water,' 'a prison,' 'the very brink of hell.'

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[He seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus.] Instead of commentary, take another parable: "There are wicked men that are coupled together in this world. But one of them repents before death; the other doth not: so the one is found standing in the assembly of the just; the other in the assembly of the wicked. The one seeth the other, [this agrees with the passage now before us] and saith, 'Woe! and alas! here is accepting of persons in this thing: he and I robbed together, committed murder together; and now he stands in the congregation of the just, and I in the congregation of the wicked.' They answer him, 'O thou most foolish amongst mortals that are in the world! Thou wert abominable, and cast forth for three days after thy death, and they did not lay thee in the grave: the worm was under thee, and the worm covered thee: which when this companion of thine came to understand, he became a penitent. It was in thy power also to have repented, but thou didst not.' He saith unto them, 'Let me go now and become a penitent,' But they say, 'O thou foolishest of men, dost thou not know that this world in which thou art is like the sabbath, and the world out of which thou camest is like the evening of the sabbath? If thou dost not provide something on the evening of the sabbath, what wilt thou eat on the sabbath day? Dost thou not know that the world out of which thou camest is like the land, and the world in which thou now art is like the sea? If a man make no provision on land for what he should eat at sea, what will he have to eat?' He gnashed his teeth and gnawed his own flesh."

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[And he cried and said.] We have mention of the dead discoursing one amongst another, and also with those that are alive. "R. Samuel Bar Nachman saith, R. Jonathan saith, How doth it appear that the dead have any discourse amongst themselves? It appears from what is said, And the Lord said unto him, This is the land, concerning which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and Jacob saying: What is the meaning of saying? The Holy Blessed God saith unto Moses, Go thou and say to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, The oath which I sware unto you, I have performed unto your children." Note that: "Go thou and say to Abraham," &c. "There is a story of a certain pious man, that went and lodged in a burying-place, and heard two souls discoursing amongst themselves. Said the one unto the other, 'Come, my companion, and let us wander about the world, and listen behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other replied, 'O my companion, I cannot; for I am buried in a cane mat: but do thou go, and whatsoever thou hearest, do thou come and tell me.' The soul went, and wandered about the world," &c.

"The year following he went again, and lodging in a place of burial, he heard two souls discoursing between themselves. Saith the one unto the other, 'O my companion, come, let us wander about the world, and hearken behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other, 'O my companion, let me alone; for the words that formerly passed between thee and me were heard amongst the living.' 'Whence could they know?' 'Perhaps some other person that is dead went and told them.'"

"There was a certain person deposited some zuzees with a certain hostess till he should return; and went to the house of Rabh. When he returned she was dead. He went after her to the place of burial, and said unto her, 'Where are my zuzees?' She saith unto him, 'Go, take it from under the hinge of the door, in a certain place there: and speak to my mother to send me my black lead, and the reed of paint by the woman N., who is coming hither tomorrow.' But whence do they know that such a one shall die? Dumah [that is, the angel who is appointed over the dead] comes before, and proclaims it to them."

"The zuzees that belonged to orphans were deposited with the father of Samuel [the Rabbin]. He died, Samuel being absent. He went after him to the place of burial, and said unto them [i.e. to the dead], I look for Abba. They say unto him, Abba the good is here. 'I look for Abba Bar Abba.' They say unto him, 'Abba Bar Abba the good is here.' He saith unto them, 'I look for Abba Bar Abba the father of Samuel; where is he?' They say unto him, He is gone up to the academy of the firmament. Then he saw Levi [his colleague] sitting without." (The Gloss hath it, The dead appeared as without their graves, sitting in a circle, but Levi sat without the circle.) "He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou sit without? why dost thou not ascend?' He answered him, 'They say unto me, Because there want those years wherein thou didst not go into the academy of the Rabbi.' When his father came, he saw him weep. He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou weep?' He saith unto him, 'Where is the orphans' money?' He saith unto him, 'Go, and take it out of the mill-house,'" &c. But I fear, the reader will frown at this huge length of trifles.

[And cool my tongue.] There was a good man and a wicked man that died. As for the good man, he had no funeral rites solemnized, but the wicked man had. Afterward, there was one saw in his dream the good man walking in gardens, and hard by pleasant springs: but the wicked man with his tongue trickling drop by drop at the bank of a river, endeavouring to touch the water, but he could not.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[A great gulf fixed.] It is well known from the poets, that inferi among the Latins comprehend the seat both of the blessed and the damned, denoting in general the state of the dead, be they according to the quality of their persons allotted either to joys or punishments. On this hand, Elysium for the good; on that hand, Tartarus for the wicked; the river Cocytus, or Acheron, or some such great gulf fixed betwixt them. The Jews seem not to have been very distant from this apprehension of things. "God hath set the one against the other, that is, hell and paradise. How far are they distant? A handbreadth. R. Jochanan saith, A wall is between." But the Rabbins say, They are so even with one another, that you may see out of one into the other.

That of seeing out of the one into the other agrees with the passage before us; nor is it very dissonant that it is said, They are so even with one another; that is, they are so even, that they have a plain view one from the other, nothing being interposed to hinder it, and yet so great a gulf between, that it is impossible to pass the one to the other. That is worth noting, Revelation 14:10, "Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

[They have Moses and the prophets.] The historical books also are comprehended under the title of the Prophets, according to the common acceptation of the Jews, and the reading in their synagogues: "All the books of the Prophets are eight; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, the Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the twelve." So the Gemara also reckons them. So we find the Octateuch of the Prophets, as well as the Pentateuch of Moses, in Photius; of which we have spoken elsewhere.

But are the Hagiographa excluded, when mention is made only of the law and the prophets? Our Saviour speaks after the usual manner of their reading Moses and the Prophets in their synagogues; where every ordinary person, even the most rude and illiterate, met with them, though he had neither Moses nor the prophets nor the Hagiographa at his own house. Indeed, the holy writings, were not read in the synagogues (for what reason I will not dispute in this place), but they were, however, far from being rejected by the people, but accounted for divine writings, which may be evinced, besides other things, even from the very name. Our Saviour therefore makes no mention of them, not because he lightly esteems them, but because Moses and the prophets were heard by every one every sabbath day; and so were not the Hagiographa.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.] Any one may see how Christ points at the infidelity of the Jews, even after that himself shall have risen again. From whence it is easy to judge what was the design and intention of this parable.]

 

[Dottie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how would a gentile Christian, Luke, know anything about ancient Jewish fables and include it in his gospel?

The same way he knew every thing else that he wrote in the book of Luke. He learned it from his constituents, or their records. News flash: Luke was not one of the twelve diciples. He did not walk with Jesus.

Especially true since nobody has been able to produce any proof of such a story, which predates Jesus.

I reccomend John Lightfoot's commentary on Luke 16:19-31 & Flavious Josephus' discourse to the Greeks concerning hades.

When Jesus spoke to Roman soldiers, Greek pilgrims, and Samaritans, etc. did He speak no other than, "in the known and vulgar dialect of that nation[i.e. Hebrew]?"

No, I don't think so. But common sense would tell one that when He spoke to His common kinsmen, He spoke "in the known and vulgar dialect of that naotion [i.e. Hebrew]

This dood betting what the ancient Jews MIGHT have thought when they heard the term "Abraham's bosum," mentioned, is not PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC. So far NO PROOF of anything.

All of your contempt for this very learned man, will not change the fact that he was indeed a very learned man. And I do wish you would learn to spell "dude" correctly.

Josephus wrote AFTER Jesus was crucified and ascended. Josephus wrote a fanciful story about Abraham’s bosum, AFTER it was written in the N.T. Did Josephus provide any PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC, that the story he told, and you quoted, was actually a belief of the Jews, at any time, or just a story he concocted? And since you are harping on and on about it, do you have any PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC, that what you quoted from ONE (1) man was in fact a belief held by any other Jew beside Josephus?

When Josephus says ........ "We suppose ...." and " We call the bosom of Abraham ...", I highly doubt that he had a mouse in his pocket. (And now I expect you to ask for PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC, that Josephus didn't have a mouse in his pocket when he wrote the discourse.)

And OBTW "Abraham's bosum," was not a place, it was a position. That is clearly shown in the story!

At last you got something right! So if it were an allusion to a position, then how in the world could one take it literally?

 

[Dottie]

The N.T. has been around for about 2000 years, in Greek and Latin, and almost 400 years in English and Luke 16:19-31 has been there all the time, so what is this "little secret" the Jews are supposed to be hiding? If it was supposed to be this well known story that all Jews knew, as you imply, why would it now be so secret, that they would not include it in an encyclopedia article on Eschatology? You do know what Eschatology means don’t you? That is the subject of Luke 16:19-31.

So far it has been brought to light that there was a man, Papias who was Bishop of Hierapolis in Phyrgia. He was born probably between 70 and 75 A.D., and died, perhaps, A.D. 163, and was, according to Irenaes (Adv.Haer., v. 33:4), "a hearer" of John the apostle, "a companion of Polycarp".

This man, Papias, "wrote in Greek, about A.D. 130, An Interpretation of the Sayings of the Lord, in five books. His work appears to have been a collection of the words and works of the Master and his disciples, with explanatory matter derived from oral testimony." Apparently both Irenaes and Eusebius of Caesaria both had access to the writngs of this person, as both men quote from them. "Iranaeus (Adv,Haer v.33:30) quotes the fourth book of Papias as authority for our Lord's saying: -"

["The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and in every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes; and every grape when pressed will give twenty-five metretes (i.e., two hundred and twenty-five English gallons). And when any one of the saints shall lay bold of a cluster, another shall cry out, ‘I am a better cluster: take me. Bless the Lord through me.’ In like manner lie said that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples and seeds and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and he in perfect subjection to man."]

Eusebius of Caesaria quotes from Papias also, and further speaks of "Papias’ stories of the daughters of Philip, who raised one from the dead, and of Justus, surnamed Barnabas, who drank poison with impunity and of Papias’strange accounts of the Lord’s parables and doctrinal sayings, which were "rather too fabulous," ".

The foregoing proves that the original texts of the New Testament scriptures were "handled" at various times, by various people pre Latin Vulgate, one, for example, being "Saint" Clement I, or Clement of Rome (died 101?), pope from about 92 to about 101, first of the ecclesiastical writers called Apstolic Fathers. According to the 2nd-century theologian "saint" Irenaeus, Clement was the third bishop of Rome and was personally acquainted with both Saint Peter and Saint Paul.

A little more info concerning the before mentioned Clement I or Clement of Rome:

American writer and mythologist Thomas Bulfinch offers the following ancient Greek and Roman descriptions of the phoenix, a powerful bird of Egyptian mythology, often associated with the sun. Beginning with accounts of the phoenix by classical historians such as Tacitus and Herodotus, Bulfinch goes on to cite the resurrection of the symbolic bird by poets and writers of the English Restoration.

From Bulfinch's Mythology: The Phœnix

By Thomas Bulfinch

[The ancient Roman poet] Ovid tells the story of the Phœnix as follows: "Most beings spring from other individuals; but there is a certain kind which reproduces itself. The Assyrians call it the Phœnix. It does not live on fruit or flowers, but on frankincense and [other] odoriferous gums. When it has lived five hundred years, it builds itself a nest in the branches of an oak, or on the top of a palm tree. In this it collects cinnamon, and spikenard [a fragrant ointment], and myrrh [an aromatic gum resin], and of these materials builds a pile on which it deposits itself, and dying, breathes out its last breath amidst odours. From the body of the parent bird, a young Phœnix issues forth, destined to live as long a life as its predecessor. When this has grown up and gained sufficient strength, it lifts its nest from the tree (its own cradle and its parent's sepulchre), and carries it to the city of Heliopolis in Egypt, and deposits it in the temple of the Sun."

And now a quote from the spiriturally? learned Clement I, the first of the ecclesiastical writers called Apstolic Fathers.

[Chapter XXIV.-God Continually Shows Us in Nature that There Will Be a Resurrection.

Let us consider, beloved, how the Lord continually proves to us that there shall be a future resurrection, of which He has rendered the Lord Jesus Christ the first-fruits by raising Him from the dead. Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place. Day and night declare to us a resurrection. The night sinks to sleep, and the day arises; the day departs, and the night comes on. Let us behold the fruits, how the sowing of grain takes place. The sower goes forth, and casts it into the ground; and the seed being thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually dissolved. Then out of its dissolution the mighty power of the providence of the Lord raises it up again, and from one seed many arise and bring forth fruit.

Chapter XXV.-The Phoenix an Emblem of Our Resurrection.

Let us consider that wonderful sign which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.]

And by such "Spiriturally learned"? men, was the original text in our New Testament handled.

So, can you give me PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC. that we have the original text of the New Testament writers, without any alterations, additions, or perhaps what is known as marginal gloss, incorporated into them?

No?

THEN, I HEREBY REST MY CASE!

 

[]RiSeN[]

Man..............some people are just really bent on wanting to go to hell....


Great job Dottie.

 

[Dottie]

Man..............some people are just really bent on wanting to go to hell....


Great job Dottie.

Thanks Fallen.

You know, I don't think it is so much that they are really "bent on wanting to go to hell" themselves, as it is they are bent on wanting, and sending other people to "hell"

Many blessings.
~ Dottie ~

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I am not quite sure how one goes about editing posts, but I would like to add to my quote above:

"And I will add, that whether you are able to wrap your brain around this fact or not, and accept that JOHN LIGHTFOOT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED HEBRAIST, does not change the fact that he was", and draws from his vast knowledge of Hebraism very effectively in his commentary on Luke 16:19-31.[/SIZE]

And I will add, that whether you are able to wrap [size=+1]your[/size] brain around this fact or not, and accept that it does [size=+1]NOT[/size] matter in the least that you think "JOHN LIGHTFOOT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED HEBRAIST, does not change the fact that he was" , and draws from his vast knowledge of Hebraism very effectively in his commentary on Luke 16:19-31." In your quote he used two examples from his own time, people in Jerusalem claiming to know where the rich man's house was, and 17th Rhemists, trying to prove Luke 16:19-31, was not spoken by Jesus. And then this great Hebraist even claimed to know the exact hour and day that man was created.

And in your quote there was NOT one single verifiable quote from any available source which has anything like the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I posted the link to the Talmud which this great Hebraist Lightfoot was supposedly quoting and asked you to find his so-called quotes. All his supposed "vast knowledge of Hebraism," that he was supposedly quoting, is NOT in the Talmud, where he claimed it was!

You keep throwing out Josephus. Josephus is meaningless to this discussion without other evidence. J. wrote AFTER Jesus crucifixion and ascension. Josephus was NOT a Theologian or a Christian. Lightfoot wrote 1600 year AFTER Jesus. Do you have any credible, verifiable, evidence from BEFORE the time of Jesus that the Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, or anybody in the entire world, ever, had any kind of story involving a rich man and a beggar going to heaven/hell, etc., that could have been copied by Luke? Don't give me this Lightfoot and Josephus garbage, anymore, it proves absolutely nothing!

As for Lightfoot, the post I was responding to only said "Lightfoot", not John Lightfoot, so get off it already. All this is is just muddying up the water about one insignficant little point because you don't have anything relevant to say about my posts.

I am still waiting. You have not posted one piece of credible, verifiable, EVIDENCE, PROOF, DOCUMENtATION, SUBSTANTIATION, that the Jews, or any other society, had a story like the rich man and Lazarus or that it was anything other than what the WORD OF GOD, claims it to be. Your Bible is evidently the scribblings of Lightfoot and Josephus, NOT the scripture recognized by the church for 2000 years.

And OBTW "Abraham's bosum," was not a place, it was a position. That is clearly shown in the story!

[size=-1]At last you got something right! So if it were an allusion to a position, then how in the world could one take it literally?[/size]

I said nothing about an "allusion," I said "clearly shown." A 1st century Christian or Jew would have known it instantly. Maybe you should spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading Josephus, Bullfinch and Lightfoot. And OBTW all those quotes up there, meaningless! Clement, Papias, Bullfinch, Lightfoot, etc., did NOT write the BIble. Talk about somebody handling the Bible, you're the one ripping out big parts of he Bible because they don't agree with your assumptions and presuppositions.

And I notice you with all your quotes about supposed legends and myths similar to Luke 16:19-31 which supposedly "prove" it was copied, must have missed my post where I cited several books which, using the same kinds of information, proves that the entire Bible was copied from pagan myths and legends.

I especially like the Gilgamesh Epic which, just like your Lightfoot and Josephus, etc., "proves" that the story of the flood, Noah, and the ark, etc. were all copied from this pagan legend.

 

[Dottie]

And I will add, that whether you are able to wrap [size=+1]your[/size] brain around this fact or not, and accept that it does [size=+1]NOT[/size] matter in the least that you think "JOHN LIGHTFOOT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED HEBRAIST, does not change the fact that he was" , and draws from his vast knowledge of Hebraism very effectively in his commentary on Luke 16:19-31." In your quote he used two examples from his own time, people in Jerusalem claiming to know where the rich man's house was, and 17th Rhemists, trying to prove Luke 16:19-31, was not spoken by Jesus. And then this great Hebraist even claimed to know the exact hour and day that man was created.

And in your quote there was NOT one single verifiable quote from any available source which has anything like the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I posted the link to the Talmud which this great Hebraist Lightfoot was supposedly quoting and asked you to find his so-called quotes. All his supposed "vast knowledge of Hebraism," that he was supposedly quoting, is NOT in the Talmud, where he claimed it was!

You keep throwing out Josephus. Josephus is meaningless to this discussion without other evidence. J. wrote AFTER Jesus crucifixion and ascension. Josephus was NOT a Theologian or a Christian. Lightfoot wrote 1600 year AFTER Jesus. Do you have any credible, verifiable, evidence from BEFORE the time of Jesus that the Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, or anybody in the entire world, ever, had any kind of story involving a rich man and a beggar going to heaven/hell, etc., that could have been copied by Luke? Don't give me this Lightfoot and Josephus garbage, anymore, it proves absolutely nothing!

As for Lightfoot, the post I was responding to only said "Lightfoot", not John Lightfoot, so get off it already. All this is is just muddying up the water about one insignficant little point because you don't have anything relevant to say about my posts.

I am still waiting. You have not posted one piece of credible, verifiable, EVIDENCE, PROOF, DOCUMENtATION, SUBSTANTIATION, that the Jews, or any other society, had a story like the rich man and Lazarus or that it was anything other than what the WORD OF GOD, claims it to be. Your Bible is evidently the scribblings of Lightfoot and Josephus, NOT the scripture recognized by the church for 2000 years.

And OBTW "Abraham's bosum," was not a place, it was a position. That is clearly shown in the story!



I said nothing about an "allusion," I said "clearly shown." A 1st century Christian or Jew would have known it instantly. Maybe you should spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading Josephus, Bullfinch and Lightfoot. And OBTW all those quotes up there, meaningless! Clement, Papias, Bullfinch, Lightfoot, etc., did NOT write the BIble. Talk about somebody handling the Bible, you're the one ripping out big parts of he Bible because they don't agree with your assumptions and presuppositions.

And I notice you with all your quotes about supposed legends and myths similar to Luke 16:19-31 which supposedly "prove" it was copied, must have missed my post where I cited several books which, using the same kinds of information, proves that the entire Bible was copied from pagan myths and legends.

I especially like the Gilgamesh Epic which, just like your Lightfoot and Josephus, etc., "proves" that the story of the flood, Noah, and the ark, etc. were all copied from this pagan legend.

And?

 

[Der Alte]

With the hope that the larger picture will help your comprehension skills, I will post the rest of John Lightfoot's commentary on Luke 16:19-31.

Well let’s see what your so-called larger picture will show. We must remember you are trying to “prove,” by quoting Lightfoot, that the Jews had a story about a rich man and a poor man dying and being taken to heaven/hell, or something like that, and this supposedly “proves” that Jesus did not speak the words of Luke 19:19-31, that according to your so-called "proof" they are an unscriptural Jewish legend, etc.

Here is your quote, in its entirety, I have highlighted every reference to Abraham. And what your so-called “larger picture” proves is that never once in all these quotes do the Jews ever use the term “Abraham’s bosom” NOT ONE TIME! In fact, the "Jewish" sources only mention Abraham four (4) times in the entire citation. Every time “Abraham’s bosom” is mentioned Lightfoot mentions it, NOT the Jewish sources he is supposedly quoting.

And as I pointed out to you before, and you conveniently ignored, I provided you the link [Here!], to the Babylonian Talmud, online, and asked you to find me any of the Lightfoot’s so-called Talmud quotes. They are NOT in the Talmud!

But you are not interested in the truth, are you? You have your copy paste from Lightfoot, which proves absolutely nothing, and you have your quote from Josephus, written, AFTER the crucifixion and ascension, of Jesus, where Josephus claims some fanciful notion about what Jews believe. Let us remember he was turncoat Jew, who betrayed his own people.

[Lightfoot: "We have here, therefore, if we will make up the story out of both Talmuds, another not very unlike this of ours. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Rabbi Judah is conveyed by angels; in the Babylonian, he is placed in Abraham's bosom: [Lightfoot speaking!] neither would the Glosser have doubted in the least either of the thing, or of the way of expressing it, so as to have fled to any new exposition, had he not mistook the person concerning whom these words were uttered. He supposeth them spoken of Adah Bar Ahavah (wherein he is deceived): and because the times do not fall in right, if they were to be understood of his death, he therefore frames a new interpretation of his own, whiles, in the mean time, he acknowledgeth that others expound it otherwise.

We may find out, therefore, the meaning of the phrase according to the common interpretation, by observing, first, that it was universally believed amongst the Jews, that pure and holy souls, when they left this body, went into happiness, to Abraham. Our Saviour speaks according to the received opinion of that nation in this affair, when he saith, "Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham." [Lightfoot speaking!]

Give me leave to transcribe a story a little more largely than usual: "There was a woman the mother of seven martyrs (so we find it also 2 Maccabees 7)." When six of her sons were slain, and the youngest brought out in order to it, though but a child of two years and a half old, "the mother saith to Caesar, 'by the life of thy head, I beseech thee, O Caesar, let me embrace and kiss my child.' This being permitted her, she plucked out her breasts and gave it suck. The she; 'By the life of thy head, I entreat thee, O Caesar, that thou wouldest first kill me and then the child.' Caesar answered, 'I will not yield to thee in this matter, for it is written in your own law, The heifer or sheep, with its young one, thou shalt not kill on the same day.' To whom she; 'O thou foolishest of all mortals, hast thou performed all the commands, that this only is wanting?' He forthwith commands that the child should be killed. The mother running into the embraces of her little son, kissed him and said, 'Go thou, O my son, to Abraham thy father, and tell him, [NO bosom!] Thus saith my mother, Do not thou boast, saying, I built an altar, and offered my son Isaac: for my mother hath built seven altars, and offered seven sons in one day,'" &c.

This woman, questionless, did not doubt of the innocence and purity of the soul of this child, nor of its future happiness, (for we will suppose the truth of the story) which happiness she expresseth sufficiently by this, that her son was going to his father Abraham. [NO bosom!] There are several other things to the same purpose and of the same mould, that might be produced, but let this suffice in this place: however, see notes upon verse 24.

Now what this being in Abraham's bosom [Lightfoot speaking!] may signify amongst the Jews, we may gather from what is spoken of the manners and the death of this R. Judah; concerning whom it is said, This day he sits in Abraham's bosom. [Lightfoot speaking, note quotation marks &#8594;!] "Rabbi Judah had the toothache thirteen years; and in all that time there was not an abortive woman throughout the whole land of Israel." For to him it is that they apply those words of the prophet, "He was a man of sorrows, and hath borne our griefs." And for these very pains of his, some had almost persuaded themselves that he was the Messiah. At length this toothache was relieved by Elias, appearing in the likeness of R. Chaijah Rubbah, who, by touching his tooth, cured him. When he died, and was to be buried on the evening of the sabbath, there were eighteen synagogues accompanied him to his grave. "Miracles were done; the day did not decline, till every one was got home before the entrance of the sabbath." Bath Kol pronounced happiness for all those that wept for him, excepting one by name; which one when he knew himself excepted, threw himself headlong from the roof of the house, and so died, &c. But to add no more, for his incomparable learning and piety he was called R. Judah the holy. And whither would the Jew think such a one would go when he went out of this world? Who amongst them, when it was said of him that was in Abraham's bosom, [Lightfoot speaking!] would not without all scruple and hesitancy understand it, that he was in the very embraces of Abraham, (as they were wont at table one to lie in the other's bosom [Lightfoot speaking!]) in the exquisite delights and perfect felicities of paradise? not in 'a lake without water,' 'a prison,' 'the very brink of hell.'

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[He seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus.] Instead of commentary, take another parable: "There are wicked men that are coupled together in this world. But one of them repents before death; the other doth not: so the one is found standing in the assembly of the just; the other in the assembly of the wicked. The one seeth the other, [this agrees with the passage now before us] and saith, 'Woe! and alas! here is accepting of persons in this thing: he and I robbed together, committed murder together; and now he stands in the congregation of the just, and I in the congregation of the wicked.' They answer him, 'O thou most foolish amongst mortals that are in the world! Thou wert abominable, and cast forth for three days after thy death, and they did not lay thee in the grave: the worm was under thee, and the worm covered thee: which when this companion of thine came to understand, he became a penitent. It was in thy power also to have repented, but thou didst not.' He saith unto them, 'Let me go now and become a penitent,' But they say, 'O thou foolishest of men, dost thou not know that this world in which thou art is like the sabbath, and the world out of which thou camest is like the evening of the sabbath? If thou dost not provide something on the evening of the sabbath, what wilt thou eat on the sabbath day? Dost thou not know that the world out of which thou camest is like the land, and the world in which thou now art is like the sea? If a man make no provision on land for what he should eat at sea, what will he have to eat?' He gnashed his teeth and gnawed his own flesh."

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[And he cried and said.] We have mention of the dead discoursing one amongst another, and also with those that are alive. "R. Samuel Bar Nachman saith, R. Jonathan saith, How doth it appear that the dead have any discourse amongst themselves? It appears from what is said, And the Lord said unto him, This is the land, concerning which I sware unto Abraham, [O.T. quote. NO bosom!]
to Isaac, and Jacob saying: What is the meaning of saying? The Holy Blessed God saith unto Moses, Go thou and say to Abraham, [O.T. quote. NO bosom!]
Isaac, and Jacob, The oath which I sware unto you, I have performed unto your children." Note that: "Go thou and say to Abraham," [O.T. quote. NO bosom. Abraham not even mentioned in the rest of this quotation, thus it has no relevance.!]
&c. "There is a story of a certain pious man, that went and lodged in a burying-place, and heard two souls discoursing amongst themselves. Said the one unto the other, 'Come, my companion, and let us wander about the world, and listen behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other replied, 'O my companion, I cannot; for I am buried in a cane mat: but do thou go, and whatsoever thou hearest, do thou come and tell me.' The soul went, and wandered about the world," &c.

"The year following he went again, and lodging in a place of burial, he heard two souls discoursing between themselves. Saith the one unto the other, 'O my companion, come, let us wander about the world, and hearken behind the veil, what kind of plagues are coming upon the world.' To which the other, 'O my companion, let me alone; for the words that formerly passed between thee and me were heard amongst the living.' 'Whence could they know?' 'Perhaps some other person that is dead went and told them.'"

"There was a certain person deposited some zuzees with a certain hostess till he should return; and went to the house of Rabh. When he returned she was dead. He went after her to the place of burial, and said unto her, 'Where are my zuzees?' She saith unto him, 'Go, take it from under the hinge of the door, in a certain place there: and speak to my mother to send me my black lead, and the reed of paint by the woman N., who is coming hither tomorrow.' But whence do they know that such a one shall die? Dumah [that is, the angel who is appointed over the dead] comes before, and proclaims it to them."

"The zuzees that belonged to orphans were deposited with the father of Samuel [the Rabbin]. He died, Samuel being absent. He went after him to the place of burial, and said unto them [i.e. to the dead], I look for Abba. They say unto him, Abba the good is here. 'I look for Abba Bar Abba.' They say unto him, 'Abba Bar Abba the good is here.' He saith unto them, 'I look for Abba Bar Abba the father of Samuel; where is he?' They say unto him, He is gone up to the academy of the firmament. Then he saw Levi [his colleague] sitting without." (The Gloss hath it, The dead appeared as without their graves, sitting in a circle, but Levi sat without the circle.) "He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou sit without? why dost thou not ascend?' He answered him, 'They say unto me, Because there want those years wherein thou didst not go into the academy of the Rabbi.' When his father came, he saw him weep. He saith unto him, 'Why dost thou weep?' He saith unto him, 'Where is the orphans' money?' He saith unto him, 'Go, and take it out of the mill-house,'" &c. But I fear, the reader will frown at this huge length of trifles.

[And cool my tongue.] There was a good man and a wicked man that died. As for the good man, he had no funeral rites solemnized, but the wicked man had. Afterward, there was one saw in his dream the good man walking in gardens, and hard by pleasant springs: but the wicked man with his tongue trickling drop by drop at the bank of a river, endeavouring to touch the water, but he could not.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[A great gulf fixed.] It is well known from the poets, that inferi among the Latins comprehend the seat both of the blessed and the damned, denoting in general the state of the dead, be they according to the quality of their persons allotted either to joys or punishments. On this hand, Elysium for the good; on that hand, Tartarus for the wicked; the river Cocytus, or Acheron, or some such great gulf fixed betwixt them. The Jews seem not to have been very distant from this apprehension of things. "God hath set the one against the other, that is, hell and paradise. How far are they distant? A handbreadth. R. Jochanan saith, A wall is between." But the Rabbins say, They are so even with one another, that you may see out of one into the other.

That of seeing out of the one into the other agrees with the passage before us; nor is it very dissonant that it is said, They are so even with one another; that is, they are so even, that they have a plain view one from the other, nothing being interposed to hinder it, and yet so great a gulf between, that it is impossible to pass the one to the other. That is worth noting, Revelation 14:10, "Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

[They have Moses and the prophets.] The historical books also are comprehended under the title of the Prophets, according to the common acceptation of the Jews, and the reading in their synagogues: "All the books of the Prophets are eight; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, the Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the twelve." So the Gemara also reckons them. So we find the Octateuch of the Prophets, as well as the Pentateuch of Moses, in Photius; of which we have spoken elsewhere.

But are the Hagiographa excluded, when mention is made only of the law and the prophets? Our Saviour speaks after the usual manner of their reading Moses and the Prophets in their synagogues; where every ordinary person, even the most rude and illiterate, met with them, though he had neither Moses nor the prophets nor the Hagiographa at his own house. Indeed, the holy writings, were not read in the synagogues (for what reason I will not dispute in this place), but they were, however, far from being rejected by the people, but accounted for divine writings, which may be evinced, besides other things, even from the very name. Our Saviour therefore makes no mention of them, not because he lightly esteems them, but because Moses and the prophets were heard by every one every sabbath day; and so were not the Hagiographa.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.] Any one may see how Christ points at the infidelity of the Jews, even after that himself shall have risen again. From whence it is easy to judge what was the design and intention of this parable.]​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]So, can you give me PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION, SUBSTANTIATION, ETC. that we have the original text of the New Testament writers, without any alterations, additions, or perhaps what is known as marginal gloss, incorporated into them?

No?

THEN, I HEREBY REST MY CASE![/SIZE]

You don't have a case! All you have is a bunch of assumptions and presuppositions. I do NOT have to prove that God is and was able to preserve His word. Anyone who claims that God is so weak and powerless that He could not preserve the Bible, the burden of proof is entirely on them. So far all I have seen is trash and rubbish. A piece of this and a piece of that and NOT one shred of indisputable evidence.
[bible]Isaiah 55:11[/bible]

 

[Soul Searcher]

Keep in mind the bible refers to Jesus as the Word. It does not refer to the text as the word. It calls the text scripture and says that all scripture is useful not inerrant.