the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[Pilgrim 33]

Hello!
I would appreciate an easy going peaceful discussion (NOT debating!) with like minded people about related topics such as:

1. the unscriptural aspects of eternal torment,
2. the (non) existence of hell, and
3. the mortality of the soul.

While I'm essentially a fundamentalist with respect to the core issues surrounding The Gospel of salvation (and prefer to remain so), the last few years have seen a decided shift in my thinking against much of the traditional views surrounding hell and eternal torment.

Following are a few questions I've wrestled with lately:

1. How can the unsaved be resurrected to life since resurrected life is only possible through Jesus?
2. Eternal life in hell is still eternal life, so how can the unsaved have eternal life without having accepted Jesus?
3. If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed how can there be anyone in eternal torment?
4. If all things are created new how can there be any unsaved people living eternally in eternal torment in the new creation?
5. How can there be any evil from the old creation in the new creation if all the old creation and all the old creation's evil are destroyed and burnt up and all things are created anew?
6. Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.
7. Scripture affirms that the very elements of the whole of creation will melt away (presumably) in the lake of fire and that all things will be created anew so, again, "hell" cannot be everlasting.
8. Since the remains of the unregenerate are dust and forgotten memories and all the dust and creation's elements are melted and burnt to nothingness so a new creation can be created then, being absent the breath of life, there is no soul to torture everlasting in an everlasting torture chamber that does not exist.
9. God's everlasting torture chamber--the very concept is antithetical to the justice and mercy of an all powerful God and since all power has been given to Jesus this is an even greater affront to the very love and sacrifice of Jesus.
10. For God to take dust that no longer exists and add memories that are forgotten and no longer exist and to, once again, add His breath of life just so His breath of life and non-existent dust and forgotten memories can be tortured forever in God's personal torture chamber--the very concept of God torturing His very breath of life throughout all eternity is even ludicrous for without His breath of life there can be no soul anymore than non-existent dust and forgotten memories alone could have a conscious state to be tortured forever in.

Blessings

Pilgrim 33

 

[Soul Searcher]

Hi,



Some interesting statements there. Don't have time to go into it now but I am in agreement as to the non existance of hell for some of the reasons you pointed out and some others as well. I'll try to get in here tomorrow afternoon and add a few thoughts.

 

[bleechers]

Greetings... I am recently of the opinion that there is some judgment of the unbelievers, but it certainly not in "hell" and it is not "eternal." You just cannot find that in the scriptures.

How can the unsaved be resurrected to life since resurrected life is only possible through Jesus?

It may be that the lost are not resurrected into new bodies "like unto His body" as we are promised. The "second death" spoken of by John may mean that they are raised in their natural state. When "hell" gives up its inhabitants for judgment, the dead seem to be awakened.

When Christ brought Lazarus back (not from a state of eternal, disembodied bliss) He brought him back in his earthly house. (Lazarus waits in the grave for his heavenly house.) It may be that the lost are raised in this manner.

For God to take dust that no longer exists and add memories that are forgotten and no longer exist and to, once again, add His breath of life just so His breath of life and non-existent dust and forgotten memories can be tortured forever in God's personal torture chamber--the very concept of God torturing His very breath of life throughout all eternity is even ludicrous for without His breath of life there can be no soul anymore than non-existent dust and forgotten memories alone could have a conscious state to be tortured forever in.

I agree that eternal torment is inconsistent with the nature of God.

I also see the point that adding memories back to dust seems somewhat odd. I haven't reasoned an answer to this yet from the scriptures. I certainly agree that He would not breathe life into dust for the sake of eternal torture, but I have not ruled out a temporary sentence which varies from soul to soul.

I will look for the scriptures that I have read that may suggest this.

Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.

Death and "hell" will be destroyed. I agree there.

I am still not certain what becomes of the Lake of Fire as it is said to torment Satan and the Beast for ever and ever ("And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.")

If I am missing something there, please enlighten!

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Greetings, Bleechers,
I have no doubt those that are alive on the earth at the end will face judgment and be judged by their works as listed in one of the "books". Those not saved will be cast into the lake of fire and, imo, will be consumed into nothingness about as fast as a living person can be burnt up.

As to those that have already lived and died, are not saved, their corpses returned to dust, their memories forgotten and God's breath of life shall have returned back to God. As to their judgment, I'm not certain here on this, but it would seem that since they are non-existent and they will be judged out of the things in the "book" it is not inconceivable that they could be judged in abstentia. Judgment in abstentia is something all courts in all countries do to varying degrees and for various purposes. As such, and since their authority all comes downward from God I do not see this possiblity as being totally improbable. At the least, it makes more sense than were God to re-infuse them with His breath of life, return to them their forgotten sentience and memories and recall their deteriorated bodies back to their former living state just so they can instantaneously be adjudged lost and thrown into the lake of fire and, with God's breath of life still intact, allow them to torturously burn forever.

Further, just as we were chosen before the foundation of creation to be saved and everyone else was lost as since all have sinned (and fallen short of the glory of God) then they were, in fact, judged in abstentia before the foundation of the world. Now then, this also raises an interesting point because if such is, indeed, the case then the only ones to actually be present at this judgment will be those that will be alive on the earth at that time.

As to the judgment of the nations, I think this refers to the Matthew 25 discourse and, with respect to Israel, Numbers 23:9 tells us, "...the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations.".

Then there is the judgment that the martyrs will preside over which appears to be a judgment of works of the believers.

The judgment that includes Babylon I think may also be the same one at the end of creation when those alive on earth are cast into the lake of fire.

I don't believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to refer to eternal torment but rather that it is more on the order of a prophetic comment by Jesus looking forward to the day when the Jews would reject the Gospel as when the rich man was told if they would not believe Moses and the prophets neither would they believe one that returned from the dead.

As far as what becomes of the lake of fire, I see Peter's two verses as descriptions of the lake of fire:

2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

2 Peter 3:12, "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

And, as I understand it, when all this present day creation and everything in it is finally destroyed which lasts for the remainder of this eon's "for ever and ever" then, imo, as with all fires, when the fuel is spent the fire goes out and God then creates a new heaven and a new earth.

obtw, Did you notice that it doesn't say Satan, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for ever and ever; rather, it says that Satan will be tormented. Notice in the passage that the beast (the system) and the false prophet are already there (sandwiched in between two commas) and, as such, this phrase only serves to additionally identify where Satan will be. The system (the beast) not being a living being would serve no purpose to be tormented though it could be destroyed in the fire. The false prophet being, at least, partially human (think Nephilim; think Satan attempting to duplicate what God has done), would be consumed by the heat and fire. Satan, on the other hand, was created to live forever. Does "forever" here mean to the end of this creation (I tend to lean in this direction) or will he be tormented throughout all the next creation (which raises all sorts of questions).

Blessings.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Just wanted to pop in and say that I am now watching this thread. I have a tendency to agree with these thoughts and the same questions are ones that I also have. Pilgrim33 did a wonderful job explaining this! I did not realize this is not a topic that is allowed to be discussed in the Christian Only forums, and I have had experience with several in here so far that are Christians.. So I feel a bit safer. I sure hope this turns out to be an edifying study rather than a "argument" it is truly getting confusing!

 

[drstevej]

Just wanted to pop in and say that I am now watching this thread. I have a tendency to agree with these thoughts and the same questions are ones that I also have. Pilgrim33 did a wonderful job explaining this! I did not realize this is not a topic that is allowed to be discussed in the Christian Only forums, and I have had experience with several in here so far that are Christians.. So I feel a bit safer. I sure hope this turns out to be an edifying study rather than a "argument" it is truly getting confusing!

Hi Flynmonkie,

You a welcome here. Hopefully you will find the discussion cordial and helpful. Feel free to join the discussion if you like or just lurk a bit.

drstevej

 

[gort]

1.How can the unsaved be resurrected to life since resurrected life is only possible through Jesus?

Who said they are being resurrected to life? Where does it say that?

2.Eternal life in hell is still eternal life, so how can the unsaved have eternal life without having accepted Jesus?

They don't have eternal life

3.If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed how can there be anyone in eternal torment?

Where does it say "destroyed"?

4.If all things are created new how can there be any unsaved people living eternally in eternal torment in the new creation?

They're not in the new heaven and new earth. They are outside of it.

5.How can there be any evil from the old creation in the new creation if all the old creation and all the old creation's evil are destroyed and burnt up and all things are created anew?

The old creation is burnt up.

6.Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.

Scripture says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

7.

8.Since the remains of the unregenerate are dust and forgotten memories and all the dust and creation's elements are melted and burnt to nothingness so a new creation can be created then, being absent the breath of life, there is no soul to torture everlasting in an everlasting torture chamber that does not exist.

Where does the bible say the soul is made of dust?

9. God's everlasting torture chamber--the very concept is antithetical to the justice and mercy of an all powerful God and since all power has been given to Jesus this is an even greater affront to the very love and sacrifice of Jesus.

hmmm....God's everlasting torture chamber. Well, how many times did Jesus warn and talk about outer darkness, hell, and lost souls? The concept is very biblical.

10.For God to take dust that no longer exists and add memories that are forgotten and no longer exist and to, once again, add His breath of life just so His breath of life and non-existent dust and forgotten memories can be tortured forever in God's personal torture chamber--the very concept of God torturing His very breath of life throughout all eternity is even ludicrous for without His breath of life there can be no soul anymore than non-existent dust and forgotten memories alone could have a conscious state to be tortured forever in

Well, Joshua said, "Choose ye now whom you will serve...."

And we also have this:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

When I look at the Cross, I see both God's mercy, and I see God's Justice.

I see His love for us, but I also see His hatred of sin.

And no sin can dwell in His presence.

<><

 

[Soul Searcher]

Who said they are being resurrected to life? Where does it say that?

If they are to be tormented for ever and ever this would require everlasting life, the resurection into life part is implied by the eternal torment doctorine. if you do not believe that doctorine it is a non issue.

They don't have eternal life

See above

Where does it say "destroyed"?

It is implied that death and hell are destroyed by the second death, e.g. the death of death.

They're not in the new heaven and new earth. They are outside of it.

Then they are alive? resurected into life?

Where does the bible say the soul is made of dust?

Genesis says man is made from the dust of the earth and God breathed the breath of life into him [spirit] scripture says upon death the spirit [breath of life] returns to God who gave it, therefore nothing is left but dust.

hmmm....God's everlasting torture chamber. Well, how many times did Jesus warn and talk about outer darkness, hell, and lost souls? The concept is very biblical.

Again you can not say souls will be tortured for all eternity and that they will not be resurected unto life. Scripture says that in death there is no thought, no wisdom, no knowledge, no device, no anything, once the breath of life [spirit] leaves man is only so much dust. dust can not be tortured.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish, die, cease to exist, not eternal torture.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Interjecting my brief thoughts here...... I would hope to have a discussion not a war so take my comments as observations.

Quote: 1.How can the unsaved be resurrected to life since resurrected life is only possible through Jesus?

Who said they are being resurrected to life? Where does it say that?

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

How can you have life without salvation?

Quote: 2.Eternal life in hell is still eternal life, so how can the unsaved have eternal life without having accepted Jesus?

They don't have eternal life

?? Explain How can they be immortal souls without salvation?

Quote:3.If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed how can there be anyone in eternal torment? Where does it say "destroyed"?

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Quote:4.If all things are created new how can there be any unsaved people living eternally in eternal torment in the new creation?
They're not in the new heaven and new earth. They are outside of it.

Scripture please?

Quote: 5.How can there be any evil from the old creation in the new creation if all the old creation and all the old creation's evil are destroyed and burnt up and all things are created anew?

2 Peter 3:10-12 (King James Version)
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Quote:6.Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.
Scripture says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

revisit 2 Peter 3:10-12 (King James Version)

Quote:7. Quote:8.Since the remains of the unregenerate are dust and forgotten memories and all the dust and creation's elements are melted and burnt to nothingness so a new creation can be created then, being absent the breath of life, there is no soul to torture everlasting in an everlasting torture chamber that does not exist.

Where does the bible say the soul is made of dust?

Genesis 3 (King James Version)
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

My question to this would be where in the Bible does it say that unbelievers have life? Scripture after scripture seems to deny this, but to say that we are dead without salvation. So therefore I draw my conclusion on this point that “Life” is only given to believers.

Quote: 9. God's everlasting torture chamber--the very concept is antithetical to the justice and mercy of an all powerful God and since all power has been given to Jesus this is an even greater affront to the very love and sacrifice of Jesus.
hmmm....God's everlasting torture chamber. Well, how many times did Jesus warn and talk about outer darkness, hell, and lost souls? The concept is very biblical.

The concept of Gods justice is biblical my question is the interpretation.

 

[ottaia]

I just have difficulty with the concept of a punitive God. If I as a mere human can forgive and understand, why couldn't an omnipotent God. I have a background in psychology and can understand quite a bit of human behavior (do not read that to mean condone). People do things for many reasons, most of which involve gaining acceptance which could equate to having survival in the herd. If people are using "sick" ways of gaining acceptance and do not know of a better way, why should they be damned?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Eternal life in hell is still eternal life, so how can the unsaved have eternal life without having accepted Jesus?

Agreed, and let me add that Jesus would not resurect someone for the sole purpose of torturing them. That would be extremely vile and evil thing to do.

If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed how can there be anyone in eternal torment?

Good question, the only mention I know of eternal torment is of the dragon tormented night and day for ever and ever. I have did some reading on this and this may not be correctly translated. for ever and ever makes no sense seeing as how for ever is eternal. The word translated here most likley means age, or eon. Also one must keep in mind that this was saw in a vision, the vision did not last forever so a real time frame would be pretty difficult to determine, sufice to say it was a long time.

People seem to assume that since the devil will be tormented there for ever and ever that all in the lake will be also but this is just an assumption and IMO a bad one. It truly does not say what effect the lake will have on any man, nor how long they will be there. It is possible that the lake is actually the presence of God, he is described as fire many times, judgement is also described as fire where by the evil works will be burned and good works will be purified. Paul says everymans works will be revealed by fire, if a mans works survive the fire he will be rewarded, if a mans works burn up he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

If all things are created new how can there be any unsaved people living eternally in eternal torment in the new creation?

Another good question. I'll pass on this one for now.

How can there be any evil from the old creation in the new creation if all the old creation and all the old creation's evil are destroyed and burnt up and all things are created anew?

It would appear that the second death is the death of evil as well as the death of death and hell.

Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.

Agreed, many people simply transfer hell into the lake of fire and liken the lake to hell as being one and the same. This however seems to ignore the scripture that the dead are no longer in hell at the time this happens.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Hello ottaia,

I just have difficulty with the concept of a punitive God.

imo, God is just, not punitive.

If people are using "sick" ways of gaining acceptance and do not know of a better way, why should they be damned?

The unsaved have the law and their conscience.

What are "sick" ways of gaining acceptance? Might you have a couple-few examples?

In what sense are you using the word "damned"?

 

[gort]

Flynmonkie quotes:

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

How can you have life without salvation?

And for the unbeliever? That person has........???

?? Explain How can they be immortal souls without salvation?

My answer to question 2 means: They don't have eternal life in Jesus. They have forever and ever torment.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

My answer reflected question 3. Where does it say they are destroyed in the LOF?

Scripture please?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.

revisit 2 Peter 3:10-12 (King James Version)

6.Scripture affirms that hell will be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting.

Scripture says death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

The concept of Gods justice is biblical my question is the interpretation.

I think Jesus is quite clear in regards to this. There is not much left to interpretation.



<><

 

[ottaia]

What are "sick" ways of gaining acceptance? Might you have a couple-few examples?

To a gang-banger, killing is a way of gaing acceptance. To a person tormented by past shaming, rape could be a form of gaining powera and gainging acceptance. These are not ways I would go about finding acceptance, but others have used them.

In what sense are you using the word "damned"?

I am meaning the eternal torment type, for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

I just seems like the punishment is out of proportion to the crime. We talk about eternal torment but we do not really think about how long eternity is. How bad does someone have to be to be tormented for millions upon millions of years?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I just seems like the punishment is out of proportion to the crime. We talk about eternal torment but we do not really think about how long eternity is. How bad does someone have to be to be tormented for millions upon millions of years?

and after those millions and millions of years are up, you still have millions of millions and millions of years to go.

Some would have us believe that God is merciful to some and merciless to others but scripture says God is no respecter of persons, It also says God changes not, If he is merciful to one he will be merciful to all.

There is nothing merciful about eternal torment, therefore if God is merciful eternal torment can not exist.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

I just have difficulty with the concept of a punitive God.

I do not. If those who choose to disregard Him and His teachings are simply ignored, He is not a just God.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

I just seems like the punishment is out of proportion to the crime. We talk about eternal torment but we do not really think about how long eternity is. How bad does someone have to be to be tormented for millions upon millions of years?

Hello ottaia,
The Scriptures tell us that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

It is irrelevent how many sins or how awful one's sins may be.

The subject of the thread is to research and discuss Biblically why eternal torment is not Scriptural.

 

[ottaia]

There is nothing merciful about eternal torment, therefore if God is merciful eternal torment can not exist.

 

[gort]

The subject of the thread is to research and discuss Biblically why eternal torment is not Scriptural.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.


from e-sword commentary:

And I saw the dead, small and great. As we learn from the next verse the dead of every land, of earth, and sea and hades deliver their dead and all come to judgment.

The books are opened. The records that contain all the deeds of men.

Another book. The book of life in which the names of the saints are recorded. From these books all are judged according to their works.

The sea. A symbol of the lost dead of whom no man knoweth.

Death and Hades. The unseen world which hides from our view those who have departed from earth. The thought of the verse is that all the dead shall be judged.

And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. After this judgment day "death and hades" also, death and the unseen land of the dead, disappear forever. This is the significance of being cast into the lake of fire, the eternal prison house. Until the end of the Millennium and the final judgment men shall die, but after the grand epoch in the history of the Universe, there shall be no more death. The last enemy, death, shall be destroyed. Then shall come to pass the saying that is written, "O! death, where is thy sting? O! grave, where is thy victory?" And whosoever was not found written . . . was cast into the lake of fire. Into the same lake of fire, that prison house to which have gone the false prophet and the beast, to which has been consigned the dragon, "that old serpent the devil," the "eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." There shall also be banished those whose "names are not written in the book of life." This is the second death. As far as Inspiration throws its light upon the sad lot of those consigned to that "lake of fire," theirs is an eternal fate. When some one has shown that doors of this final prison of the Universe have opened to permit the escape of those who have been consigned to its keeping, then we may perhaps indulge some hope that its prisoners will, in the lapse of endless years, escape from their sad environment.

I find it to be entirely Scriptural. I don't think anybody really has a say about it before God.

I posted this because of what it says near the end of the commentary. Unless someone knows for sure.......

As to what the LOF represents, that's anybodys interpretation.

fwiw

<><

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

It takes {dust + God's breath of life = soul} to make a soul

Minus the breath of life there is no soul

Ecclesiastes 9:5, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

The dead have no conscious memory.
Any reward they received they received in THIS life.

Those in Christ are NEVER referred to as "the dead"; rather, those in Christ are always referred to as "sleeping" and being "asleep".

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Therefore, "the resurrection of damnation"...

John 5:29, "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

...CANNOT refer to any judgment of the unsaved.

Rather, this is ONE of the judgments to come,

It is the judgment that is for the believers and is based upon their works.

It is not a judgment for salvation but, rather, it is a judgment based upon how they manifested their faith.

This is a judgment of rewards and retribution, not salvation and damnation.

Luke 12:47, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Luke 12:48, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

The unsaved are NOT servants of Jesus,

Therefore, these verses, imo, can allude only to those in Christ.