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The Fall

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Van

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Paul says by the sin of the one (Adam) the many (mankind) were made sinners. Is a person who is predisposed to sin, but has not knowingly sinned yet, say a baby in the womb, a "sinner"?

If we are conceived in iniquity, does that mean we are sinners at conception?

Is our "sin nature" passed to us physically, like a sin gene?

Lets see if we can answer these questions biblically.

In Genesis 3:17-19 we find that Adam is "cursed." Now a biblical "curse" is simply God declaring some adverse circumstance will befall a person or group. God said, "cursed is the ground because of you;" but what this means is the ground will yeild stuff that is adverse to Adam, all its fruit will not be a blessing or beneficial to Adam. Adam will have to labor or toil or work the ground to obtain food, unlike in the garden of Eden where food was provided for Adam by the labor of God.

Next, Adam will "return to the ground" as a consequence of his sin. So Adam not only lost access to the garden of Eden, he also lost access to the tree of life. And what is more, God provided that access to the tree of life shall be blocked, so that Adam, by his own effort could not access the tree of life.

Looking back to Genesis 3:7, we see that Eve was not corrupted physically by being born as an offspring of Adam, yet when Adam sinned, then she had her eyes opened, which refers to her corruption, her "fall" and therefore the consequence of the fall is spread spiritually not physically.

Now in this corrupted spiritual state, separated from the tree of life, and unable to access it by any action on our part, we are referred to as "evil." But just because we cannot access the tree of life, does not mean we cannot seek the tree of life. If we could not seek it, there would have been no need to post a Cherubim and the "flaming sword." Thus we "labor in vain" to attain the righteousness of God by the works of the Law, for all our deeds of righteousness are as filthy rags. So the Fall does not result in spiritual inability to seek God but rather the spiritual inability to re-establish an unseparated relationship with God.

Jesus taught in Matthew 7:11, that we, in our corrupted state, know how to give "good" gifts. Thus we are able to understand good and evil, the "fruit" so to speak of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In summary, the Fall resulted in mankind being corrupted spiritually, and separated from God. Thus we are condemned to our separated corrupted state from conception, we are conceived in iniquity. And so even though we may not have sinned, say as a baby who has done nothing good or bad in the womb, we are condemned already, and the only way to obtain the righteousness of God is through faith in Christ. So a baby who has not faith, is condemned already as the result of the Fall, just as John 3:18 says.
 

Ormly

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Paul says by the sin of the one (Adam) the many (mankind) were made sinners. Is a person who is predisposed to sin, but has not knowingly sinned yet, say a baby in the womb, a "sinner"?

The error lies with that while we are indeed sinners isn't because we sin but because what Adam placed us in, i.e., evil with no way out. Paul alludes to nothing else. He is especially not saying that we are compelled in some way to sin. No man was ever compelled to sin except from himself, irrespective of Adam's transgression. Lets get that right that and other scripture might be better understood with regards to our redemption and salvation.
 
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nobdysfool

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In other words, man is not a sinner because he sins, he sins because he is a sinner.

No one has said that man is compelled to sin by any outside agent. Man chooses to sin. But, man is not able to rid himself of the stain or consequences of even one sin. Therefore, he is trapped, a sinner who cannot cleanse himself from sin or truly stop sinning. His very being is corrupted by the sin he commits, as well as the nature he inherited.
 
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Van

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Van said:
Paul says by the sin of the one (Adam) the many (mankind) were made sinners. Is a person who is predisposed to sin, but has not knowingly sinned yet, say a baby in the womb, a "sinner"?

If we are conceived in iniquity, does that mean we are sinners at conception?

Is our "sin nature" passed to us physically, like a sin gene?

Lets see if we can answer these questions biblically.

In Genesis 3:17-19 we find that Adam is "cursed." Now a biblical "curse" is simply God declaring some adverse circumstance will befall a person or group. God said, "cursed is the ground because of you;" but what this means is the ground will yeild stuff that is adverse to Adam, all its fruit will not be a blessing or beneficial to Adam. Adam will have to labor or toil or work the ground to obtain food, unlike in the garden of Eden where food was provided for Adam by the labor of God.

Next, Adam will "return to the ground" as a consequence of his sin. So Adam not only lost access to the garden of Eden, he also lost access to the tree of life. And what is more, God provided that access to the tree of life shall be blocked, so that Adam, by his own effort could not access the tree of life.

Looking back to Genesis 3:7, we see that Eve was not corrupted physically by being born as an offspring of Adam, yet when Adam sinned, then she had her eyes opened, which refers to her corruption, her "fall" and therefore the consequence of the fall is spread spiritually not physically.

Now in this corrupted spiritual state, separated from the tree of life, and unable to access it by any action on our part, we are referred to as "evil." But just because we cannot access the tree of life, does not mean we cannot seek the tree of life. If we could not seek it, there would have been no need to post a Cherubim and the "flaming sword." Thus we "labor in vain" to attain the righteousness of God by the works of the Law, for all our deeds of righteousness are as filthy rags. So the Fall does not result in spiritual inability to seek God but rather the spiritual inability to re-establish an unseparated relationship with God.

Jesus taught in Matthew 7:11, that we, in our corrupted state, know how to give "good" gifts. Thus we are able to understand good and evil, the "fruit" so to speak of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In summary, the Fall resulted in mankind being corrupted spiritually, and separated from God. Thus we are condemned to our separated corrupted state from conception, we are conceived in iniquity. And so even though we may not have sinned, say as a baby who has done nothing good or bad in the womb, we are condemned already, and the only way to obtain the righteousness of God is through faith in Christ. So a baby who has not faith, is condemned already as the result of the Fall, just as John 3:18 says.

Posts 2 and 3 agree with the opening post above, but then posts 4 through 7 simply provide links or references to those whose position on the Fall is left unstated.

Lacking any specific objections, one might conclude that the view presented in the OP is essentially correct.
 
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nobdysfool

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ummm, wouldn't it be better to let someone else make that judgment, rather than, in essence, patting yourself on the back? That is, unless you intend to have the thread closed...

Just askin'.....
 
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Ormly

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esus taught in Matthew 7:11, that we, in our corrupted state, know how to give "good" gifts. Thus we are able to understand good and evil, the "fruit" so to speak of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

“For the creation was subjected to *futility—not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it . . . .” Rom.8:20. *uselessness

We are in a “separated from God”, state of existence by virtue of a “mark” placed upon us that cannot stand the light of the presence of God, on penalty of death. This “mark” is not unlike the mark of Cain inasmuch as what Adam did to all of mankind. This “mark” must be removed. As with Cain, this “mark” is something from outside of man, placed upon him, thus sealing man in bondage to the purpose of the one who subjected him. This wicked one, to satisfy his intent, does so by making his appeal to man by solicitations to the "self" of man; his own created nature, though not without hope, made helpless to the possibility of intimacy with God; intimacy that would have conquered his foe. His nature which was always independent of God and that God desired to inhabit; make His own, is now, of itself, without strength. “As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine. . . .” Jn.15:4.

Being separated from God doesn't mean man, of himself, is corrupted. Corruption is not the issue but rather bondage to evil, a world apart from God and he can not get back to “Father’s House” Enter Jesus who shows us the “Way” back.

However, being in this state of separation, as it affects God's blessings upon him, is as man deems it. God is always wanting to bless man even in the evil he resides, His compassion is unending, that man might honor Him. Either side of the cross, this desire of God hasn’t changed but remains predicated upon man’s love to Him.

 
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Van

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Romans 8:20 does indeed refer to the fallen condition of mankind, for mankind is both separated from God, and corrupted from within. While still in the garden [not yet in a separated state] Adam and Eve's "eyes" were opened, which refers to their corruption as a consequence of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Scripture says by the sin of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. To be made a sinner is to be corrupted, and to be a sinner is to be in a sinful unholy state, separated from God. In our fallen, unregenerate state, our "old man" is corrupt through deceitful desires. To the defiled [corrupted] nothing is pure, they are destestable, disobedient, unfit for any good works.
 
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Ormly

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Romans 8:20 does indeed refer to the fallen condition of mankind, for mankind is both separated from God, and corrupted from within. While still in the garden [not yet in a separated state] Adam and Eve's "eyes" were opened, which refers to their corruption as a consequence of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Scripture says by the sin of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. To be made a sinner is to be corrupted, and to be a sinner is to be in a sinful unholy state, separated from God. In our fallen, unregenerate state, our "old man" is corrupt through deceitful desires. To the defiled [corrupted] nothing is pure, they are destestable, disobedient, unfit for any good works.


Then it must assumed be that Adam and Eve were corrupted from their beginning.
 
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Van

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Ormly said:
Then it must assumed be that Adam and Eve were corrupted from their beginning
No, to make that assumption is to engage in irrational absurdity. That is the actuality of the reality of asserting the necessity of error.

As I said, Adam and Eve were corrupted when their eyes were opened, and not before. That is the reality of the actuality of scripture's truth presented by Genesis 3:7.
 
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Ormly

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No, to make that assumption is to engage in irrational absurdity. That is the actuality of the reality of asserting the necessity of error.

As I said, Adam and Eve were corrupted when their eyes were opened, and not before. That is the reality of the actuality of scripture's truth presented by Genesis 3:7.

Ya can't have it both ways, dude. With your explanation Adam was corrupt and that is why he transgressed. There can be no other reason by your reckoning.
 
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