The Fall of the West (It's Happening Now)

[Jesse Dornfeld]

So you first say the United States may be more immoral than any other culture in history (based on what -- do you think those immoral behaviors/views you list are not rampant in other Western countries now, or at any other point in history, except perhaps the mass shootings, which we have here because of the ease of access to firearms?), and that the Millennials are to blame for abandoning the faith (do you think the Boomers with their 1960s sexual revolution, Roe vs. Wade, celebration of Hugh Hefner, "don't trust anyone over 30," were much more moral/religious in their youths? Who do you think taught the Millennials? Generational tendencies don't occur in context-independent vacuums).

Yet you then say these same American Millennials need to save the culture, and it needs to be done by God.

This is a non-sequitur.

There are still plenty of people speaking out against secular society, especially here in the United States, which STILL remains the most religious of the countries in the West (that, by the way, brings up the question -- if you think we're the most immoral, then why are the European countries -- which are CONSIDERABLY less religiously affiliated than us -- more "moral"? Why would MORE unChristian countries be MORE moral than a much more Christian one?). Why do you think the political left doesn't even use the word "tolerance" anymore? I've spoken with many atheists, leftists, and agnostics online over the years, and they don't just drop all their world views because Christians "spoke out" to them. Actually, that tends to make their views even MORE entrenched. And it's only gotten worse -- go to Reddit, or any discussion forum even about your favorite sports teams, and try to argue with/speak out against those people about faith/religion. Tell me how it goes.

I believe you have a very naive and faulty understanding of human nature, haven't really debated much with people of differing views, don't have much of an understanding of how people construct their views, and -- like many Christians in the United States -- need to look more at the New Testament and what Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John taught. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, Paul taught early Christians to respect governing authorities even though Nero and others were putting Christians to death (a much worse fate than an atheist making fun of us online), and not ONE of them gave any instructions to believers to make a national theocracy.

It's not our job to save/redeem the culture; regardless of the nation we live in, or the time point in history. All we can do is practice our faith, whether or not it's "popular" in our nations and cultures.

If you are such an expert at debate you should be a little more charitable instead of arguing in bad faith.

 

[kdm1984]

It isn't charitable to accuse an entire nation of being the most immoral in history. That's about as uncharitable an accusation as I've seen on these forums.

 

[kdm1984]

Better ask the OP, he seems to have a firm grip on the reasons civilisations fall.

All he has done is give a one-liner dismissive response to me thus far. He assumes the worst of our nation in bad faith, gives little analysis to his claims, but somehow expects charity in return.

 

[kdm1984]

Oh boy, another "the sky is falling" thread. These are never based on completely bonkers ideas...

First off, when I read things like "Only 6% hold to a Biblical worldview", I immediately get suspicious that whoever is claiming that has in mind only their own very narrow idea of what that means that probably only includes whatever Protestant sect they're a part of, to the exclusion of the vast numbers of other Christians around the Western world who might not be Biblical literalists or believers in Biblical inerrancy, but in all other ways (e.g., adherence to the Nicean Creed, which is this very website's statement of faith) are just as Christian as the 6% who apparently meet the OP's definition of holding a "Biblical worldview".

Secondly, there seems to be a mix-up of sorts going on here as a result of trying too hard to map the conditions of Ancient Rome onto our modern geopolitical world. To say that Rome or Greece or wherever fell due to this or that kind of political decadence and cultural ennui is one thing; to say that this was due to a lack of "national identity" is really anachronistic and weird. As any amount of forethought on this matter would remind a person, the Greco-Roman empire (Rome in the West, Byzantium in the East) was just that: an empire. As such, the formation of distinct national identities was itself more of a sign of the empire's decline than the absence of them ever could be. Again, think about it: The Ottoman Empire ruled over a very large and diverse population, just as the later Russian and British empires would likewise rule. And how did each of these end? With the rise of modern nationalism: the liberation of the Greeks, the Balkans, the Armenians, and so on in the case of the Ottoman Empire; the formation of the Russian republic in the case of the Russian Empire (soon to be transformed into the largest constituent nation of the USSR), and the formation of any number of national entities out of former British colonial possessions in the case of the British Empire (India, Iraq, Sudan, etc.). The modern concept of nationalism or the nation-state is strikingly new. When my own grandfather was born in 1911, there was arguably only one independent state in all of Africa (Ethiopia), the Austro-Hungarian Empire was still a thing, Iceland was still a dependency of Denmark, the USA still ruled the Philippines (as they would until 1946), etc. The world looked pretty different than how it does now, and that was just over a century ago. I would be willing to grant that people still had what we could think of as "national identities" a long time ago, but these were not expressed via a kind of 'supra-tribal' mentality like they would be in a modern country like the USA, where what binds people together is being 'American'. Rather, it seems obvious that the Jews of the past just like the Jews of today knew that they were Jews, as is usually also the case with regard to other groups like Armenians or Assyrians (and here I only write 'usually' because there are perhaps a great number who are Arabized/Turkified/Kurdified, and hence disconnected from their true origins), but lacking as they did during most times a suitably unoccupied homeland to call their own, these were ethnolinguistic and/or ethnoreligious designations, not modern 'nationalisms'. In other words, you were a Jew if you were raised in the religion of Judaism, had some familiarity with a distinctly Jewish language or dialect (e.g., Hebrew, Judaeo-Aramaic, Ladino/Judaeo-Spanish, Judaeo-Persian, etc.), and most importantly, if your mother was a Jew (as that is how Jewish identity is conferred as a matter of law). This is all very different than the modern western conception of "national identity". No one says "sorry, but you only get to be Australian or Polish (or whatever) if you're an English or Polish-speaking Christian".

The argument presented in the OP seems to rest upon very weak grounds. I'm not even going to touch any of the stuff about homosexuality (another strikingly modern idea, depending on how exactly it is understood) or which generation is to blame for whatever (here's a hint, though: mainline Protestant Christianity had stopped being the dominant flavor of Christianity in the USA by the mid-1980s, when even the oldest Millennials like me were still in single digits; now tell me, please: has the state of public acceptance or profession of Christianity in the USA gotten better or worse in the years since then? Hmmm...). That's all ridiculous 'culture war' nonsense that I have absolutely no time for.

Was this response in any better faith or more charitable than mine?

Why did OP only single out my post? There's plenty criticism to address here.

 

[kdm1984]

Did the Romans not have gays? Or the Greeks? You learn something every day!

I didn't know that you could adopt homosexuality either. The Romans had absolutely no sense of national identity, ever. Where I was born, just inside the furthest limit of the Roman Empire the forts were garrisoned by Syrian troops for many years and the Ancient Britons south of Hadrian's Wall became Roman citizens. After 25 years of service the Syrian soldiers became Roman too and were allotted pieces of land to farm. They would marry local girls and raise their families in harmony with their neighbours.

It is probably unwise to make assumptions about something you clearly know so little about, Jesse. Maybe your antipathy to ways of life different from your own have led you into these misunderstandings.

Was this charitable and done in good faith?

Why no reply from OP?

 

[Nithavela]

Was this charitable and done in good faith?

Why no reply from OP?

Maybe he has everyone but you on ignore.

 

[Whyayeman]

Why would MORE unChristian countries be MORE moral than a much more Christian one?).

Why indeed? In France Religious Education cannot take place in state schools. France is not notably immoral as a result, and a lot more tolerant than many Americans who post on CF.

Why do you think the political left doesn't even use the word "tolerance" anymore? I've spoken with many atheists, leftists, and agnostics online over the years, and they don't just drop all their world views because Christians "spoke out" to them.

I am not sure about 'leftists' dropping the word 'tolerance'. It is certainly not something I have noticed - but then, most leftists I know are in the UK. It is true that the Christian message is not helped by being 'spoken out' to by Christians. At a social function I attended recently a minister took it upon himself to decide we would all be better off if we sang a hymn together. We were a very mixed bunch but there were many observant Christians who were just as reluctant to join is as the atheist half of the company. We, the non-hymn-singers, were wholly tolerant. Nobody countered with a rendition of the Red Flag or the Internationale (though some of knew the words).

 

[Whyayeman]

Was this charitable and done in good faith?

Well, in good faith, certainly. Every word sincere.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

It isn't charitable to accuse an entire nation of being the most immoral in history. That's about as uncharitable an accusation as I've seen on these forums.

No offense but you have not demonstrated that you understand what I have written.

 

[kdm1984]

Maybe he has everyone but you on ignore.

That does seem to be the case.

He continues to go after me with one-liners while refusing to address any of the points made by anyone in this thread, me or otherwise. And he had some very strong critiques from other posters in this thread, some much harsher than mine.

I will pray for him and move on.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

First off, when I read things like "Only 6% hold to a Biblical worldview", I immediately get suspicious that whoever is claiming that has in mind only their own very narrow idea of what that means that probably only includes whatever Protestant sect they're a part of, to the exclusion of the vast numbers of other Christians around the Western world who might not be Biblical literalists or believers in Biblical inerrancy, but in all other ways (e.g., adherence to the Nicean Creed, which is this very website's statement of faith) are just as Christian as the 6% who apparently meet the OP's definition of holding a "Biblical worldview".

Fewer people in America would agree with your view than with the study that this comes from seen HERE and for more info go HERE.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I will pray for him and move on.

I expect attitude from Athiest. I don't expect it from other Christians (especially those who I share a political party with).

 

[Whyayeman]

No offense but you have not demonstrated that you understand what I have written.

No offence, but what you have written is not demonstrable. The concept of homosexuality was unknown to the Romans or their successors. Rome was never a nation, so had no national identity. Anybody in the Empire could claim citizenship, but was quite another matter.

The ends of the Greek and Roman empires are the subject of many scholarly studies and are not amenable to a simplistic idea about religion. The post does not even approach any sense of analysis.

It is my understanding that the ideologies that both the Greeks and the Romans adopted led to the demise of these once-global powers from the west.

Things like adopting Homosexuality, a loss of national identity, and generally an attack on family values led to the demise of these once powerful entities.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

No offence, but what you have written is not demonstrable. The concept of homosexuality was unknown to the Romans or their successors. Rome was never a nation, so had no national identity. Anybody in the Empire could claim citizenship, but was quite another matter.

The ends of the Greek and Roman empires are the subject of many scholarly studies and are not amenable to a simplistic idea about religion. The post does not even approach any sense of analysis.

Are you saying that the Greeks and the Romans had no erosion of culture?

 

[Hans Blaster]

It is my understanding that the ideologies that both the Greeks and the Romans adopted led to the demise of these once-global powers from the west.

Vague, needs citation.

Things like adopting Homosexuality, a loss of national identity, and generally an attack on family values led to the demise of these once powerful entities.

I don't think any credible historian would say that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to these things.

That is exactly what is happening in the west today. A society cannot continue to function when family values (Read: Judeo-Christian values) are eroded from the culture.

There are "Jewish values" and "Christian values". They are not the same thing and there is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian values".

In fact, even though we have a global economy which means it is harder for the west to fall, nonetheless, we may be more immoral in the US than in any other culture in history.

Morality is difficult to quantify. I have no idea how this claim can be made with a straight face.

We have mass shootings,

Some occur in other nations, but not nearly as many, nations that have proceeded further down the path you think is the problem. Perhaps the problem has to do with cultural attitudes towards guns and the relative availability of guns.

abortion,

So?

an LGBTQ+ agenda,

Which is "LGBTQ people exist and should be treated fairly and decently."

a decline of Christianity,

It is in decline.

and only about 6% of people in the US hold a Biblical worldview (which drops to 2% for Gen Z). While you could make the case that other nations around the world are more unchristian (Japan, for example, where there are only 1% of Christians in the population including cults and anything even resembling Christianity), I say what I say due to such a rapid drop away from Christianity in the US.

This claim is a bit overblown. The number of self-identified Christians is about 70% (and declining each year) more than 10x the number you quote. While some of those self-identified will not be particularly dedicated or observant, I seriously doubt only 1 in 10 qualify. One suspects that the definition of "biblical worldview" is quite narrow and excludes many faithful Christians. (Not just "nominal" ones.)

It is how fast we are declining that I say this. We are entering a state of spiritual blindness in the US.

I believe most of the fault for this falls on Millennials (of which I am a part). I know people close to me who say, "I am thankful for deconstruction," Etc.

I will admit, we Gen-Xers are not holding up our end of the bargain on deconstruction.

It's time for millennials to make the change we need to make as a society. This can only be done by God. The US is in a very sad state. Liberalism is rampant. Philosophers are knowingly trying to change the definition of words (such as questions of gender).

This all sounds like politics, not religion.

If you are a Christian, you must speak out against the secular society, get on your knees and pray for revival. God can change this country, but He's the only one who can.

Please dedicate the vast majority of your efforts through prayer. That will work, right?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

This all sounds like politics, not religion.

We are in the Ethics and Morality sub-forum.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It is my understanding that the ideologies that both the Greeks and the Romans adopted led to the demise of these once-global powers from the west.

Things like adopting Homosexuality, a loss of national identity, and generally an attack on family values led to the demise of these once powerful entities.

That is exactly what is happening in the west today. A society cannot continue to function when family values (Read: Judeo-Christian values) are eroded from the culture.

In fact, even though we have a global economy which means it is harder for the west to fall, nonetheless, we may be more immoral in the US than in any other culture in history. We have mass shootings, abortion, an LGBTQ+ agenda, a decline of Christianity, and only about 6% of people in the US hold a Biblical worldview (which drops to 2% for Gen Z). While you could make the case that other nations around the world are more unchristian (Japan, for example, where there are only 1% of Christians in the population including cults and anything even resembling Christianity), I say what I say due to such a rapid drop away from Christianity in the US. It is how fast we are declining that I say this. We are entering a state of spiritual blindness in the US.

I believe most of the fault for this falls on Millennials (of which I am a part). I know people close to me who say, "I am thankful for deconstruction," Etc.

It's time for millennials to make the change we need to make as a society. This can only be done by God. The US is in a very sad state. Liberalism is rampant. Philosophers are knowingly trying to change the definition of words (such as questions of gender). If you are a Christian, you must speak out against the secular society, get on your knees and pray for revival. God can change this country, but He's the only one who can.

Maybe, but some of the way in which we think today about the historical changes that have taken place with Rome and its empire might have too much to owe to Edward Gibbon. I'd suggest not settling merely with his "type" of account when assessing all of this.

 

[Hans Blaster]

We are in the Ethics and Morality sub-forum.

You were claiming that a decline in religion was the cause for (an alleged) decline in morality. Then you made a list of purely political claims that were unrelated.

 

[Nithavela]

That does seem to be the case.

He continues to go after me with one-liners while refusing to address any of the points made by anyone in this thread, me or otherwise. And he had some very strong critiques from other posters in this thread, some much harsher than mine.

I will pray for him and move on.

I expect attitude from Athiest. I don't expect it from other Christians (especially those who I share a political party with).

Are, there you have your problem. You are not exhibiting the expected groupthink.

That's always offensive to certain conservatives.

 

[timothyu]

It is interesting that those of nations will go all defensive when criticized, yet willingly let their leaders sell the out to a global government that cares nothing of nationalism.