The fall of Man

[Armistead]

I have been debating this in my mind for years. As I study it, I find myself debating did man fall on his own or did God intend that man fall.

It appears to me that God not only intended that man should fall, but that he ordained it.

We know God knows all and trillions of years before it happened he knows the result...just using time.

God made Satan, knowing Satan would fall. Obvious, God created him anyway.

When Satan fell, God cast him out of heaven.

God creates man on earth. Not to debate the garden, but for discussion, let's say it's literal. You know the story, God places the tree and tells them not to eat, because it contains all knowledge. Satan tempts Eve, she sins, Adam eat,,,man is doomed.

However, God removed Satan from heaven. Where did he place him..on the same earth that he placed man.
God also did not take away Satan's power. He let him keep it. Satan also found his way into the garden with this great power. Another point, why place the tree there anyway? Take it away, man would have never fell.
Man obvious had freewill before the fall, because he could choose to eat or not. Obvious, they stayed away, no matter the desire, until Satan shows up.

It appears that all the pieces were put in place for man to fall. God could have destroyed Satan, at least taken away his power. God could have put him elsewhere, why on the same planet with man. If GOd intended that man remain sinless in the garden, take away Satan and the tree and there man would remain.

My opinion is God planned the fall. It was not the fault of Adam or Eve. I don't think God would judge all mankind over the actions of one. It was his will to bring all knowledge to man, so that they could have total free will to do good or evil. That the garden is just symbolic of heaven.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

No one is responsible for mans choices except for man
Making excuses is stupid and weak

And besides, how can we have free will if there's only one choice to make?

 

[JGL53]

No one is responsible for mans choices except for man
Making excuses is stupid and weak

And besides, how can we have free will if there's only one choice to make?

Humans are not given a choice whether they exist or not, i.e., whether they are born into the world or not.

So much for free will.

- E.g., I put a gun to your head and say "You will play a chess game with me. If you lose, I will torture you slowly to death. If you win, I will instead buy you lunch and a new car.

So - how much free will do you have in the above scenario?

 

[elcapitan]

Humans are not given a choice whether they exist or not, i.e., whether they are born into the world or not.

So much for free will.

- E.g., I put a gun to your head and say "You will play a chess game with me. If you lose, I will torture you slowly to death. If you win, I will instead buy you lunch and a new car.

So - how much free will do you have in the above scenario?

That's life, in a nutshell. We're swept up by forces we can't possibly control.

 

[MorkandMindy]

... I don't think God would judge all mankind over the actions of one...

Interesting point. According to Romans through Adam all men suffer death and through Jesus all mankind receives life.

This suggests that by the same reasoning as inflicts the disobedience on all men, similarly that salvation is also gained by the actions of someone else.

I guess this is the theology underlying Universalism.

Not a lot of people are Universalist, I'd guess not because the theology is any more flawed than any other theology, but because if Universalism is true than nobody needs to do anything or even have any religion. Having a Universalist Church is almost like having a rally in support of apathy; logically nobody should show up.

 

[Isambard]

On a side-note, Satan isnt Satan until Luke. And according to the cannonical bible, there is never mention of a previous fall of Satan, only in future tense in Revelations.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Humans are not given a choice whether they exist or not, i.e., whether they are born into the world or not.

So much for free will.

- E.g., I put a gun to your head and say "You will play a chess game with me. If you lose, I will torture you slowly to death. If you win, I will instead buy you lunch and a new car.

So - how much free will do you have in the above scenario?

I have plenty of free will in that scenario

I personally can't decide if I would say no to playing chess just to irk you, or if I would play because chess is so much damn fun

 

[JGL53]

I have plenty of free will in that scenario

I personally can't decide if I would say no to playing chess just to irk you, or if I would play because chess is so much damn fun

Ha Ha Ha. Your are as funny as was Pope Innocent I (or perhaps III).

IOW, you have no SERIOUS rebuttal to my scenario, just a little jokie poo in hopes of diverting our attention away from the bankruptcy of your belief system.

Thanks for playing our game. Sorry - no parting gifts.

 

[Isambard]

Humans are not given a choice whether they exist or not, i.e., whether they are born into the world or not.

So much for free will.

- E.g., I put a gun to your head and say "You will play a chess game with me. If you lose, I will torture you slowly to death. If you win, I will instead buy you lunch and a new car.

So - how much free will do you have in the above scenario?

There are always choices. No one ever said they had to be good ones.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Ha Ha Ha. Your are as funny as was Pope Innocent I (or perhaps III).

IOW, you have no SERIOUS rebuttal to my scenario, just a little jokie poo in hopes of diverting our attention away from the bankruptcy of your belief system.

Thanks for playing our game. Sorry - no parting gifts.

Sorry mate, but that's no joke, I'd expect a man of your years to be above such crude follies and idiocy. Of course, your just another in the pile of men older than I who have proven that time doesn't always teach

Of course, if I knew you would continue after me to possibly harm others, and if you couldn't be persuaded with words, I'd do whatever it took to rip your throat out. How's that serious for you?

Now, if you are feeling mature enough for a real argument without those childish moods of yours, I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[The Nihilist]

No one is responsible for mans choices except for man
Making excuses is stupid and weak

And besides, how can we have free will if there's only one choice to make?

Doesn't sound like you're much into original sin. Can't say that I blame you.

 

[Sojourner<><]

I have been debating this in my mind for years. As I study it, I find myself debating did man fall on his own or did God intend that man fall.

It appears to me that God not only intended that man should fall, but that he ordained it.

We know God knows all and trillions of years before it happened he knows the result...just using time.

God made Satan, knowing Satan would fall. Obvious, God created him anyway.

When Satan fell, God cast him out of heaven.

God creates man on earth. Not to debate the garden, but for discussion, let's say it's literal. You know the story, God places the tree and tells them not to eat, because it contains all knowledge. Satan tempts Eve, she sins, Adam eat,,,man is doomed.

However, God removed Satan from heaven. Where did he place him..on the same earth that he placed man.
God also did not take away Satan's power. He let him keep it. Satan also found his way into the garden with this great power. Another point, why place the tree there anyway? Take it away, man would have never fell.
Man obvious had freewill before the fall, because he could choose to eat or not. Obvious, they stayed away, no matter the desire, until Satan shows up.

It appears that all the pieces were put in place for man to fall. God could have destroyed Satan, at least taken away his power. God could have put him elsewhere, why on the same planet with man. If GOd intended that man remain sinless in the garden, take away Satan and the tree and there man would remain.

My opinion is God planned the fall. It was not the fault of Adam or Eve. I don't think God would judge all mankind over the actions of one. It was his will to bring all knowledge to man, so that they could have total free will to do good or evil. That the garden is just symbolic of heaven.

I like to think about this problem from a father's (or mother's) perspective. Say for instance there is a professional potter who is the father of a naive and unlearned child. The man decides that he wants to be able to take his child to work with him in his studio but he knows the risks of the child's inexperience, but there's only one way to teach the child, and that's through experience. So, the father takes the child to work, places a newly made pot within reach of the child and he tells him that if he touches the pot, it might fall and break which would be very bad. The father then leaves the child alone in the room momentarily. Of course, curiousity overcomes the child and the pot suffers the consequences of smashing into pieces all over the floor. When the father returns, he scolds the child and the child learns.

If we look at the fall of man in this way, can we say that God desired for us to fall? I would say no as the potter did not desire for his pot to be broken, even though he knew it would, and eventually worked around the tragedy to the child's good.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

<staff edit>

lol, you just keep proving me right don't you?

Get a grip old man, and stop acting like I should be.

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

Ooooh, this thread is quite funny

JGL53- I think your post number 8 was specifically intended to spark a flame, why? You are a Buddhist after all, makes no sense to me, I have never in my short life seen or heard a Buddhist do that, or even heard of........

But seriously overall you both (ArchaicTruth and JGL53), please do continue, Id like to see where this goes

 

[Isambard]

<staff edit>

Playing out a sexual fantasy are we? Careful, he's jailbait!

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Playing out a sexual fantasy are we? Careful, he's jailbait!

Dude.....no

 

[JGL53]

Ooooh, this thread is quite funny ...

JGL53- I think your post number 8 was specifically intended to spark a flame, why? You are a Buddhist after all, makes no sense to me, I have never in my short life seen or heard a Buddhist do that, or even heard of........

But seriously overall you both (ArchaicTruth and JGL53), please do continue, Id like to see where this goes...

There are as many Dharmas (paths) or yogas as there are people. Yours will probably not be mine. Mine may seem wrong to you. It probably is - for you. And, even though we must needs use the term - we can't escape it now, I suppose - there is no Buddhism, or particular Buddhist philosophy or creed, as such - there is only Buddhas - all of us - those who are enlightened to this fact, and those who aren't.

I am a secular or westernized Buddhist. If interested you can learn more of this general viewpoint by reading "Buddhism without Beliefs" by Stephen Batchelor.

I "believe", if I must use the term, in tough love. You can't be nice to all people all of the time. Sometimes certain individuals need someone to precisely inform them of the apparent logical and/or moral errors of their ways. Sometimes there is no "nice" way to do this effectively. If we don't do this, then the Hitlers and Stalins and Popes and Falwells of the world win. (E.g., if Nazi Germany had ruled India instead of Britain, Gandhi would have been gassed and buried in some mass grave, along with probably tens of millions of other Indians who stuck with pacifism as the godly way to deal.) I fight with words now in hopes that actual - or potential -theocratic(or other forms of power-worship) -based mass violence can be ameliorated or even avoided.

Part of my Dharma is to entertain. I am glad to hear I am fulfilling that role to some extent.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

lol, so priests raping little boys is some logical/moral fallacy of mine now? Let me point out a folly of yours, never assume anything unless you know enough to support your claim, and last time I checked, I'm still a virgin, and little boys don't do anything for me.

 

[simpletrust]

No one is responsible for mans choices except for man
Making excuses is stupid and weak

And besides, how can we have free will if there's only one choice to make?

You're assuming we have free will. What grounds do you have for that?

 

[Isambard]

You're assuming we have free will. What grounds do you have for that?

As he put it, there is always choice.