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Featured The Fall of Babylon

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DreamerOfTheHeart, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, God's Two Witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the Transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4 the two "olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

    Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3). Also, the plagues which God's Two Witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

    Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And the archangel Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like how, for example, Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could be alive at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

    God's Two Witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the Two Witnesses' time on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the Tribulation's second woe/sixth trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). The Two Witnesses will be taken physically up to heaven before the Tribulation's seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

    They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people, and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    2 Peter 1:19
    We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    Peter knew that "could be" and "may be" are never seen in a sure word of prophecy.

    Scripture confirms his declaration.
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    2 Peter 1:19 means that Biblical prophecy itself will definitely be fulfilled, not "could be" fulfilled. But what Christian Futurism does is explore various possibilities for exactly how all of the details in Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled.

    For example, the original Greek word (eikon: G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could be referred to as an "eikon" of the Antichrist.
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    John is the only writer to use the term “antichrist”. He uses it exclusively in his epistles, where he declares that antichrist is a plurality (1 John 2:18; 1 John 2:22; 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7).

    He does not use the term in Revelation. Therefore, nowhere in Revelation does he equate any beast (of which there are more than one -- Revelation 13:11) to “The Antichrist”, which he has declared in his epistles is not a singularity, but a plurality.

    “The Antichrist” is unseen, unheard, and unsaid by John in Revelation, except by imagination.

    It fails the test of Peter's "sure word of prophecy".
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  5. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States
    Well, it is true, he is not claiming to be prophesying, but that when one is playing with prophetic interpretations, it often means the same thing. But, a difference is, there are theories, possibilities -- usually.

    For instance, I say that Babylon means the Catholic Church, which is rare [for me to make such an explicit interpretation of revelation -- not rare to make this identification, it is a primary one]. I do not view 'the beast' and 'the false prophet' to be so easy to identify one on one. This does not mean that I frown upon other possibilities for Babylon, but I have simply found them invalid. I do frown on people settling on one or another possibility, without being aware of the other possibilities presented, historically. For instance, when someone says, "Why the Catholic Church" or "that can't be the Catholic Church", I am instantly struck by the awareness that this is a common stance I take, one which they should have researched already, before excluding the possibility.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  6. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States
    Let me just stop you right there.

    I just wrote that the two witnesses have been fulfilled, and your response is an arrogant "it has not been fulfilled". As if you would know.

    Is this because you disagree with me? Because you know I am no authority? Because you think, that you have never seen proof of Heaven, God, angels, the supernatural -- so I am like you? Yet, for all you know, I am an angel in disguise. You have no idea about anything regarding me. Where do I get my evidence? Just randomly filling in the blanks? Maybe from scribe like research, which you profess expertise on?

    But, why are you unaware that Babylon as the Catholic Church is the foremost theory? By your own standard of scribal excellence, you would be already familiar with this. So, you are no scribe. What are you relying on to fill in these blanks?

    Regardless, go and do your research on Babylon in Revelation, and come back, then I would be more then happy to discuss that matter with you.

    Do you need me to link to you the wikipedia entry on the matter?
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The understanding of Revelation's Babylon as the apostate papacy of Roman Catholicism was anything but rare historically. In conjunction with the historical understanding of the apostate papacy as the predominant antichrist of its era, these prophetic recognitions were the foundational underpinnings supporting the Protestant Reformation, and the resultant emergence of the true Christian Church from the spiritual Dark Ages. These doctrines were central to the true Christian Church's prophetic convictions up to the 19th century.

    Absent the Reformation, the spiritual freedoms enjoyed by the contemporary Protestant Christian Church would not exist.

    The 19th century emergence of modernist dispensationalism and futurism, with their roots in the apostate papacy's counter-reformation of the 16th century, have cost the Christian Church its prophetic focus and united voice against apostasy. Until these are reclaimed with a return to the prophetic faith of the fathers, prophecy will wander aimlessly in a desert of its own choosing and making.

    As former Catholic priest and author Joseph Zacchello accurately diagnosed, "Protestants who advocate the futuristic system are pleasing the pope and are playing into the hands of Rome."
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  8. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States

    Well said.

    As for my statement that this is "rare", I did not mean that it is rare to view the Catholic Church is Babylon. Quite the contrary. I have since clarified my post.

    In fact, this is a primary annoyance, on this topic. There are numerous posters who have responded 'as if' this identification is something they have never heard of before. But, it is a primary identification, one which they should not need to be schooled on.

    1. Whatever their belief, they should research it, which means considering as many contrary opinions as possible. This is impossible to research without coming across ample documentation on this very identification.

    2. If they profess to have performed their research, then they have done a very shabby job to have failed to miss this identification.

    In fact, it is impossible to have studied the gamut of possibilities without having studied the Catholic Church as Babylon.

    Whatever one believes, there is no excuse for not challenging your belief. Even if you have had an angel come down from Heaven and tell you the answer, still, you should do your homework. And, I know for a fact, none of these folks have any such experience, whatsoever.

    Instead, what you have, is someone goes and joins some cult, and they do not wish to have their beliefs challenged, in anyway. I know this, because this is exactly what I try and get people to do.

    If the Spirit leads someone in the solution on any of these matters, you still will want to fill it up with research.

    That is how things work.
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Any person is an antichrist who denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22) or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b) or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the first century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a) animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

    Also, the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) does not contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist; just as on the side of good the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) does not contradict that there is an individual man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

    Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Antichrist" for it to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Trinity" for it to be true and supported by the Bible (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

    The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will be ultimately cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

    Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he is not the Antichrist.

    The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the Bible by the Church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

    The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).
  10. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

    United States

    The problem with looking for the tree is you miss the forest. This is why the apostle warned 'already there are many anti-christs'. Most anti-christs today pose as Christians. And they believe they are Christian.

    Likewise, there are many Satans, many Michaels, many Christians. This concept is not alien to a student of Christian literature. People should not be dull when it comes to metaphor, this indicates they have a hard spirit.

    Further, many of these verses you quote in english, actually have further explanation, if you go to the Greek. For instance, the Beast's number "666", while commonly called "the number of a man", if you go to the lexicon (available online), you can see it is plural.

    More importantly, it is very clear from the text, "the Beast" is not one man. Anyone stating the Beast is one man is either not having read Revelation, or more likely, never having paid attention to the actual symbolism used for the Beast. What man has seven heads?

    What man has ten horns? What man, for that matter, has one head which is "dead" but "resurrected"?

    These interpretations men have come up with have, themselves, clearly been from hell, not from the Spirit.

    One question people should ask themselves is: why? Why all the disinformation? For one thing, "the Beast" has been around since before John. "Five have fallen, one is"... it does not require sophisticated mathematics to realize the seven "kings" represent seven "kingdoms". I could go to the lexicon for that, but it is not even necessary to do so.

    We understand what you are saying. But, can you understand what we are saying?

    Because what you are saying, is not new. You are repeating other people's theories.

    What this other poster has stated, and what I am stating is also documented. Not everything I am saying has been documented before, but the majority of it is. So, there is no reason for you to be unable to understand these matters.

    More importantly, on the Beast, it is important to understand that the Beast is tied into the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, which has not fallen.
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that it is not plural, even in the original Greek. Otherwise, it would have been translated as "the number of men".

    Instead, in Revelation 13:18 the original Greek can and does mean that six hundred and sixty-six is "the number of a man", meaning the gematrial number of the name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). Six hundred and sixty-six is not the gematrial number of the names of all men.

    In the ancient method of gematria, numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: the first nine letters are assigned a value of 1 through 9, the next nine letters are assigned a value of 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are assigned a value of 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18 the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the future Antichrist's name should be done in the same way that the gematrial numerical values of the three Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

    The numerical values assigned to the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the three obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

    Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). The apostle John used the Greek alphabet because it was the most common one used by Christians when the book of Revelation was written down in the first century AD. Today, the English alphabet is the most common one used by Christians, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet. The purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for Christians, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all Christians today would not know how to properly perform this transliteration, and so different Christians would come up with different transliterations, and so would come up with different gematrial numbers for the name of the man in question.

    If Christians think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to see if his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it does not, then he is not the Antichrist. If it does, then he could be, and they need to be especially wary of him, and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence, or amazing deeds that he might display. But even if someone's name adds up to 666, this does not mean that he is definitely the Antichrist. For just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

    But if a man from the Middle East has a name that adds up to 666, even this does not assure that he is the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there will not be any more room for doubt over whether or not he is the Antichrist. His identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

    The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, F=6, G=7, H=8, I=9, J=10, K=20, L=30, M=40, N=50, O=60, P=70, Q=80, R=90, S=100, T=200, U=300, V=400, W=500, X=600, Y=700, Z=800. The way that the gematrial number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), is added up, is simply by adding up the gematrial numerical values of all of the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because: J=10, O=60, H=8, N=50, M=40, A=1, R=90, K=20, S=100, M=40, I=9, T=200, H=8. Total = 636. The future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).

    Revelation 13:1 refers symbolically to the empire aspect of the beast. See post #15 above.

    Regarding the three different aspects of the beast, see post #11 above.
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Gematria is a practice within witchcraft. It was originated by practitioners of the occult mysticisms of the Jewish Talmudic Kaballah.

    The Greek Textus Receptus is not original Greek. Rather (from Wikipedia):
    "Novum Testamentum Graece (The New Testament in Greek) is a critical edition of the New Testament in its original Koine Greek, forming the basis of most modern Bible translations and biblical criticism."

    In Novum Testamentum Graece, the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 is rendered as: ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ, hexakósioi hexēkonta héx. There is no gematria i.e. no Talmudic Kabbalistic occultic corruption.

    If the translators of the KJV or any other English version believed or believe in gematrial legitimacy, they would render the 666 of Revelation 13:18 in what is claimed to be English gematria, i.e. XOF; consistent with the Kabbalistic Greek gematrial rendering in the Greek Textus Receptus.

    Not one of them did, does, or will.

    Witchcraft is condemned repeatedly and unequivocally within Scripture (Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10; 1 Samuel 15:23; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Micah 5:12; Acts 19:19; Revelation 21:8). Under the old covenant, it was punishable by death.

    Gematria constitutes a doctrine of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Does anyone here really think that actual fire comes out of the mouths of the 2 witnesses in 1st century Jerusalem, which is also the great City/Harlot depicted in Revelation?

    Revelation 11:5 -

    And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

    Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

    I would say this is depicting one third of Daniel's people, the 1st century Jews [Daniel 11:35]

    Ezekiel 5:
    2 - “You shall burn with fire one-third in the midst of the City, when the days of the siege are finished; then you shall take one-third and strike around it with the sword, and one-third you shall scatter in the wind: I will draw out a sword after them.
    5 - “Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem; I have set her in the midst of the nations and the countries all around her.
    6 - ‘She has rebelled against My judgments by doing wickedness more than the nations, and against My statutes more than the countries that are all around her;..................

    Zechariah 13:9
    I will bring the one-third through the fire,
    Will refine them as silver is refined,
    And test them as gold is tested.
    They will call on My name,
    And I will answer them.
    I will say, ‘This is My people';
    And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.' ”

    Daniel 11:35
    “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

    Luke 19:
    41And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou-knew, and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and
    thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to Thee,

    and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    instead which not Thou knew the time of Thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

    Revelation 9:
    17 - And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
    18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

    Revelation 11:5
    And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
    Revelation 17:16 “And the ten horns which you saw on[fn] the beast, these will hate the Harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

    Revelation 18:18 -

    and cried out when they saw the smoke of Her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?'

    Ezekiel 22:
    17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam! 18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
    19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
    I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
    20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnaceto blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
    21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
    22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’


    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019