The Fall of Babylon

DreamerOfTheHeart

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I should mention it, as the action transpires. And recap, when it is done. But, maybe not here.

It will seem amazing, the Babylon could ever fall. For it is the head of gold, of the invisible, but very material idol, of the world. The very head of gold.

How appropriate that the 'beast' should be its' beheader. Of its' own self. As it has beheaded so many. That great beast, of whom the whole world follows after, worshiping, while saying, 'who is like the beast, none can make war with it'.

Worship of the world, the state, as if there is nothing better then this.

A lie, told a long time ago, and one which has festered across the ages, growing.

But, what good is this statue people worship, without a head? It will go mad, and together with its' latest mistress (the 'false prophet'), plunge forward into a battle it can not win. With the Kingdom, that, indeed, it can not make war with.

Like King Ahab, in his conceit, and the Angel who made all of his prophets lie to him.

The beast is already at war with the harlot. You can read about it in the news. This trend will not decrease.

Conspiracy, the covering up of sex crimes. Against children. The beast is incensed -- how dare this woman think herself above the law.

Pride comes before a fall.

Turning against the hierarchy of her own self, it is as Baal of Zebub turned against himself. We should rejoice, for such a house can not stand. So, we know her hour is at hand.

The problem is, the very foundation of the body is the head, and without it, the body is bound to fall. For fifteen hundred years, the world has had this false hope. That there is a ruling institution, that smiles upon the 'beast'. That it has concourse with the Kingdom. That it operates on the authority of Jesus, and the Angels. The Holy Ones, on high.

But, Islam is popular, too. And, Communism retains billions of adherents. Both of which her arrogance spawned. Popularity of a world, that worships the beast, is no indication of God's favor.

Only they do not imposture their lies, in the Name of Jesus Christ.

How has God allowed this to happen? How did God allow Israel to be exiled to Babylon.

Why.

They wanted a king, as Israel did, so they created their own monstrosity. One which even the Reformers did not really want taken down.

They believed, if they all grouped together, they could build a tower to the sky. Make a name for themselves. And be united. So they could accomplish anything they set their minds to. With such an accomplishment, looming over them. How could they fail.

But, everyone who stays true to the words of Jesus Christ, knows. They know it is wrong.

For them, like with Moses, this world is not enough for them.

So, they sing a new song.

'How all the nations will fear you, O Lord.'

Quite the opposite of the song the world sings.

The song of the beast. The song of the world, and its' towering accomplishments. 'Who can make war with the beast, what is like it', they sing, as they do their jobs.

Maybe they will cure cancer? Or, death. Maybe they will solve poverty. Looking at my watch. No. No, that is not the path they are taking, not at all.
 

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Maybe they will cure cancer? Or, death. Maybe they will solve poverty. Looking at my watch. No. No, that is not the path they are taking, not at all.
As written, they are pretending to cure disease, as if they care about something other than money.

As written, they market men's souls like chattel (commodities), while
pretending to be trying to help the poor they are creating more oppression and troubles.

Concerning those following Jesus: we are being slaughtered as sheep all day long.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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As written, they are pretending to cure disease, as if they care about something other than money.

As written, they market men's souls like chattel (commodities), while
pretending to be trying to help the poor they are creating more oppression and troubles.

Concerning those following Jesus: we are being slaughtered as sheep all day long.

Very true, amen.

I find myself as if in the world of the dead. I try and reach even my friends, but they can not hear me. The grave has them.

But, one day, they will wake up. Shake the dust off of them. And, look around. At 'all the dead bodies'. The world I currently live in. Populated by zombies.

Oblivious to what is happening around them.

They try and wake up, just to get knocked down again.

Titans struggle before us, on the theater of the world's stage. They are both evil, let them destroy their own selves.

No titan, nor tower, can pass the green glass ceiling. God looks down and laughs.

He raised up Pharaoh, merely so he could be taken down. And the world see His Glory.

The world was not enough for Moses, it was not even to be considered against the Kingdom to come.

So, we sing his song, and the song of the Lamb.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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It's not very subtle who it is you're trying to paint as the Beast, if subtlety is what you were going for.

No, I am not.

The metaphors for 'the Beast' and 'Babylon' are extremely sophisticated metaphors.

This is my viewpoint.

At this juncture, specifics are vague. This is also my viewpoint.

In a general outline, "the Beast" represents "the World", and "Babylon" represents "the Christian religious establishment". The later is what the Church has been metaphorically exiled into.

Certainly, the Catholic Church is a very large piece of that pie. But, the same investigations going on against the Catholic Church, are going on against similar organizations, which, directly or indirectly, spawned from it.

"The Beast" is even more vague. It is a consortium of nations, one can say. But, what nations? And, what does that really mean? What are the ten heads? What are the ten kings, or kingdoms?

Does this mean that everyone who lives in one of those countries is "the Beast"? No. Does this mean that every institution of those countries is "the Beast"? No.

"The Beast" exists, we live with it, but we should not worship it, thinking there is nothing higher. What claims to be higher then the Beast, is the religious establishment. Specifically, the Christian religious establishment. And, even more specifically then that, the Roman Catholic Church.

So, it is only natural that "The Beast" wants to take it down.

Where is this happening? In America only? No. All across the world. [Just because people focus on the heads of the beast, does not mean the rest of the body is not there.]

What is the argument? That these organizations believe themselves to have State like authority, and are above the State.

So, it is only natural that there is a showdown, and this is exactly what is happening.

It is not so difficult to understand why the State (or, 'the world') wants to take down their main rival. Why this is the inevitable course of action.

What is very difficult to understand is that these little investigations are going to lead to an exposure of the Catholic Hierarchy straight up to the Pope, globally.

Just as it was for Babylon, the 'writing is on the wall'.

You can tell from the Pope's attempts at various absurd defenses, that he has something to hide. First he attacked "clericalism". Then he attacked "gays". What he has to do is avoid the real problem: that the Catholic Church has been systematically operating as a criminal conspiracy to cover up every manner of crime.

You can also tell, because of the accusations already made by high ranking Catholic officials, that he is involved.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It's not very subtle who it is you're trying to paint as the Beast, if subtlety is what you were going for.
He pretty much confirmed his view of Rome and the Pope on this other thread:
The 'Christian religious establishment' will fall through the downfall of the Catholic Church. By 'the Beast'.
So, when the Pope is finished due to his criminal conspiracies hitting the front pages, and it becomes a scandal even to be a member then you can know who is who and see what happens next.
I don't see the Pope or Rome being referred to in these verses;

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their tormenting ascends into the ages of ages;...........


Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread
No, I am not.

The metaphors for 'the Beast' and 'Babylon' are extremely sophisticated metaphors.

This is my viewpoint.

Certainly, the Catholic Church is a very large piece of that pie.

"The Beast" exists, we live with it, but we should not worship it, thinking there is nothing higher. What claims to be higher then the Beast, is the religious establishment. Specifically, the Christian religious establishment. And, even more specifically then that, the Roman Catholic Church.

What is very difficult to understand is that these little investigations are going to lead to an exposure of the Catholic Hierarchy straight up to the Pope, globally.

Just as it was for Babylon, the 'writing is on the wall'.

You can tell from the Pope's attempts at various absurd defenses, that he has something to hide. First he attacked "clericalism". Then he attacked "gays". What he has to do is avoid the real problem: that the Catholic Church has been systematically operating as a criminal conspiracy to cover up every manner of crime.

You can also tell, because of the accusations already made by high ranking Catholic officials, that he is involved.
Your view is no different than the Sabbatarian SDA sect's or Lutherism concerning the RCC being symbolized in Revelation.

OC 1st century Jerusalem is in Revelation, if not then, then future.
Rome is not mentioned in these verses:


Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! 38 Lo, is being left to ye the house of ye desolate/erhmoV <2048>

Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
35 Lo, is being left to ye the house of ye desolate/erhmoV <2048>
[Revelation18]

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies upon the broad-place of the great City, which-any being spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also/even their Lord was crucified

Revelation 18
9
“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of Her burning, they will weep and mourn over her
19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/hrhmwqh <2049> .

Jerusalem is the so called "Holy City" and should be leading all others into holiness, but that City is no holier than Rome.

Record 30,000 at Jerusalem Pride Parade march amid tight security

Participants take part in the annual Jerusalem Gay Pride parade on August 2, 2018.

The march comes a week after more than 60,000 demonstrators in Tel Aviv protested the Knesset’s passage of a new surrogacy law that excludes gay couples as well as single men. That demonstration capped off a day of strikes and protests in support of gay surrogacy and the LGBTQ community.

gay pride parade Jerusalem.jpg


Jeremiah 5:1
“Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
See now and know; And seek in her open places
If you can find a man, If there is anyone who executes judgment,Who seeks the truth,
And I will pardon her.

Amo 4:11
“I overthrew some of you,
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.




.



 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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It's not very subtle who it is you're trying to paint as the Beast, if subtlety is what you were going for.

He pretty much confirmed his view of Rome and the Pope on this other thread:

I don't see the Pope or Rome being referred to in these verses;

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their tormenting ascends into the ages of ages;...........


You misquoted me, the poster who responded to me, and Scripture, all in your first few lines here, of a very multi-colored post (with alternating bolding and font size).

If you wish to be known for someone who tells the truth, you probably should try and do that. Especially when people's quotes are right there, and there is no reason to misquote them, or Scripture.

Revelation 14:11 is speaking of the followers of the "Beast", not of "The Beast" nor "Babylon", specifically.

Matthew 23:33 has nothing to do with "The Beast", nor "Babylon", specifically, but was speaking to the religious establishment during the time, in Israel.

The only relation Matthew 23:33 has to do with today's environment is: the religious establishment has become as they were. They have been this way for over fifteen hundred years. God did this through Israel, knowing the environment of Israel would be replicated, globally.

People should not read what Jesus said and did, and apply it to the Jews, as Hitler did. They should apply it to their own selves, and take warning. Just as Jesus stated that they should do.

I get it, already, you don't know any Jews, and don't speak to Jews, your message is for Gentiles, so you have tailored it to say what some of them want to hear.

You have taken Scripture and tailored it to a false reading, so as to tell people that 'all the bad things' will happen to Israel, instead of to Gentile nations. Everybody else.

That is, 'blame it all on the Jews'.

You seem to forget that Jesus and the Prophets were Jews. Peter, was a Jew. The Apostle to the Gentiles is Paul, however, not Peter. So, they would do well to read Paul. Because God gave him words specifically focused to the Gentiles.

Complete destruction of their nation, millenia of wandering and persecution, and the slaughters in the Holocaust, and the Soviet Union are not enough for your sort.

But, it is enough for God. God has restored Israel.

Just as God predicted, in Zechariah.

Not man.

Jesus said, 'mercy triumphs over justice', maybe apply a little mercy to such a persecuted, small nation. Especially, post-Hitler. There is no excuse for this sort of anti-semitism, post-Holocaust.

People have every chance, even now, to repent, and believe. There is no reason to throw away your future, merely to get more pleasant statements from people who like what you have to say.

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread
Your view is no different than the Sabbatarian SDA sect's or Lutherism concerning the RCC being symbolized in Revelation.

You have no idea what my view is, though it is right in this thread, in a response to that poster.

Granted, I have no idea of what words you are trying to put in my mouth here.

As for the Catholic Church being symbolized as "Babylon", or "the harlot of Babylon", this is a common viewpoint, among Protestants.

harlot of Babylon - Wikipedia

I do believe "Babylon" is more then just the Roman Catholic Church. I consider it the 'religious establishment', and more specifically, the 'Christian religious establishment'. But, it is true, I am predicting their downfall, and that all the way to the Pope.

It will become a scandal, even to be a member. People will be floored.

It will be like what has happened to famous people who have been discovered to be a sex criminal, or murderer. Trusted, beloved people, who, it turned out, were liars and despicable criminals, all along.

This is near impossible to believe, right now, though 45 states have requested information on how to proceed on their own investigations into the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church has survived perpetuating the Inquisition. It survived the inappropriate contentocracy. It survived the Reformation. And so far, modern times. So, this is an incredible statement to make, regardless of what actions are happening now.

It survived many scandals.

But, this one is going to take it down.

Why be bothered? I am sure others are concerned, and see the possibility that they could be in real trouble, this time. So, they want to hear that good things, not bad things are going to happen.

They will flock to you, for speaking this message, and attempting to pain Israel, the Jews, as the trouble in the world. Many people want to hear that message.

But, you will be proven wrong, in time.

And, I will be proven right.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You have taken Scripture and tailored it to a false reading, so as to tell people that 'all the bad things' will happen to Israel, instead of to Gentile nations. Everybody else.
That is, 'blame it all on the Jews'.
Oh my.......The ole anti-Jewish card......

I don't blame the 1st century Jews back then, Jesus and the Apostles did......Same ones showing in Revelation.

Revelation is simply a change of Priesthoods......the OC Mosaic and the NC Abraham/Jesus......Flee from the futurist end-time books.......

Here is John the Baptist condemning them:

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,“Brood of vipers!
Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath to come?

Then Jesus:

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Revleation 6
16 - and they are saying to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Then James:

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye Murder<5407> the Righteous-One,

not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform/repent out of their murders<5408>,........



.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Oh my.......The ole anti-Jewish card......

I don't blame the 1st century Jews back then, Jesus and the Apostles did......Same ones showing in Revelation.
.

Everything which was done in Israel, through Moses and the Prophets, and Apostles, was done for the benefit of the inheritors of the Spirit, through Jesus Christ.

2000 years ago, literal Jerusalem was a propagator of abominations, however that was, effectively, a sealed environment.

Since then, the Jewish errors really never went anywhere, though many of them remain on the books, to this day. The reason for this is because Israel was destroyed, and the people set to wander. Israel did not become the world ruling nation, as they had expected.

What has happened since then, is the errors which were prevalent in Israel 2000 years ago, have become prevalent in the world, today.

Consideration of the 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar' here is important: that statue has most certainly not yet fallen.

That statue falls at the rock - *not* carved out by human hands - hitting the feet, the last ruling Kingdom.

Each Kingdom in the statue proceeded naturally from the other. Babylon was conquered by Mede-Persia, Mede-Persia was conquered by Greece, Greece was conquered by Rome. Rome was the iron calves of the statue.

Now, Rome is the 'iron' in the feet, the last Empire. The feet is depicted as 'iron mixed with clay', and we can see that Rome remained a principle part of the Empire, which would follow. And remains, to this day, a principle part of that very Empire, though we are apprised that this Empire is multiple nation states consolidated together.

Rome was fragmented. But the Empire has been held together by Rome.

In modern parlance, you end up with a consortium of superpowers, fragmented, but tied together by a centrality of belief. That centrality of belief is Rome. Without Rome, without the iron in the feet, the statue would, and will, fall.

The general nature of that consolidated Kingdom, with Rome as the 'rider on the beast' has been set by the many errors introduced by Rome.

Martin Luther, actually, very well put forth the many errors of Rome in his initial thesis. These have been elaborated on since, not only by Protestants, but even by Catholics - including the Pope - himself. For instance, the most recent Pope has elaborated on the errors of what he calls 'clericalism'. That is, the worship of the clergy.

From Rome came the Nestorians, a sect which they did consider aberrant, and exiled to the desert. They took with them the aberrations, or abominations, which they stole from Rome. They had their own take on it, but their general take was very much mothered by pre-existing errors in the Roman religion.

Muhommad came across the Nestorian works, and thus bore Islam.

Communism and Nazism was born from Rome, also indirectly, but in that environment. Both were born in the former "Holy" "Roman" Empire, which Voltaire (for once), accurately pointed out, 'was neither Roman, nor Holy, nor an empire'. (I do not put "Empire" in quotes, above, as for these purposes, it was an empire, albeit a fragmented one, as he agreed.)

Germany was the homeland of the "Holy" "Roman" Empire, which ended in the early 19th century by Napoleon.

In the wake of that destruction, many new children of the mother of abominations came to be, in the hostile environment of that aftermath: both Communism and Nazism were born there, in Germany, in that wake.

Countless other abominations, however, have been born by Rome, across the centuries. As noted, these abominations are both old and new. They have come about by the 'secret introduction of doctrines of demons', which were monopolized, in Rome, just as the Rome was the centrality of control.

Without going further in these matters, I will conclude this by pointing out: Jerusalem has not even been around across these centuries. It was not restored until lately.

We all know this.

This is not a difficult enigma to decipher.


Many have claimed that the Babylon riding the Beast has come about lately. This is not true. The Beast and Babylon have been the iron and clay, all along. What is new about the two is the Beast. It is more lately colored scarlet, or red, just as China is the controlling influence, behind the scenes.

And, it has a head which was dead, but is as resurrected. That is not a difficult puzzle to figure out. The Holy Roman Empire was replaced by America.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #1:

The beast is already at war with the harlot. You can read about it in the news. This trend will not decrease.

Conspiracy, the covering up of sex crimes. Against children. The beast is incensed -- how dare this woman think herself above the law.

Do you mean that Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" represents the RCC?

If so, note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as of all other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself does not reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has the RCC killed all of the Christian martyrs who have ever been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The ten kings of the empire of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the future, seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). The ten kings of the future Antichrist's empire could destroy the cities of the nations under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all of the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all of our great cities, all of our magnificent systems. Let us break all of our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat all of the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth (Revelation 21:1), as in a new atmosphere (first heaven) and surface for the earth. And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with Christians on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #5:

The metaphors for 'the Beast' and 'Babylon' are extremely sophisticated metaphors.

Regarding Revelation's "beast", note that "beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it is referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

He will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will be ultimately cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

A second aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11), who is now literally in the Bottomless Pit, and will ascend from it during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 to spiritually empower the empire of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a third aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the Bottomless Pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the Bottomless Pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of four other powerful fallen angels who are now bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b). They could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. The binding of a stone to a prophetic scroll (written down by the prophet Jeremiah) about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64), could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the four powerful fallen angels, and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.

When these four fallen angels are released at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill one-third of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently, after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #5:

"The Beast" is even more vague. It is a consortium of nations, one can say. But, what nations? And, what does that really mean? What are the ten heads? What are the ten kings, or kingdoms?

Regarding "the ten heads", what Bible verse are you referring to?

Regarding the ten horns/kings of Revelation's beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1), note that they could be ten men whom the future Antichrist will appoint as kings over ten major nations, and which ten major nations could be the ten horns in Daniel 7:24.

For in Daniel 7 the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out of the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43 the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9) which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24) could mean that the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General (the future Antichrist's precursor) who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.
 
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Do you mean that Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" represents the RCC?

If so, note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as of all other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself does not reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has the RCC killed all of the Christian martyrs who have ever been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).


I can argue that they do fit all of the above.
 
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Regarding "the ten heads", what Bible verse are you referring to?

Regarding the ten horns/kings of Revelation's beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1), note that they could be ten men whom the future Antichrist will appoint as kings over ten major nations, and which ten major nations could be the ten horns in Daniel 7:24.

I meant, 'horns', not heads.

I do tend to see the seven nations as that which arises after the downfall of Rome, to keep in with the pacing of the previous metaphor, nebuchadnezzar's statue. So, what six nations, or nation groups took over after that?

It might even be in sequential order.

I find that less likely, but possible.

I have not much bothered to look. American took over after the sixth head. Germany claims to have been in control for a thousand years, since 800 AD to 1806. Constantine was where theologians started to work on relooking at Revelation, and Augustine sealed the theology of the Catholic Church about a hundred years later.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #13:

{Re: The RCC and Babylon]

I can argue that they do fit all of the above.

How do you feel that the RCC fulfills everything said about Revelation's "Babylon"?

*******

DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #14:

I do tend to see the seven nations as that which arises after the downfall of Rome, to keep in with the pacing of the previous metaphor, nebuchadnezzar's statue.

Regarding "the seven nations", are you referring to the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3)?

If so, note that they represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, eighth head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of five empires which had fallen by the time of the apostle John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11; cf. Daniel 1:1-2), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned (via "reincarnation"), and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #14:

I do tend to see the seven nations as that which arises after the downfall of Rome, to keep in with the pacing of the previous metaphor, nebuchadnezzar's statue.

Regarding Nebuchadnezzar's statue, Daniel 2:31-33a,37-40 was fulfilled by the ancient empires of Babylon (head of gold: Daniel 2:38b), Medo-Persia (silver), Greece (brass), and Rome (iron), the same four empires pictured by the four beasts in Daniel 7.
 
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How do you feel that the RCC fulfills everything said about Revelation's

I will make that argument, at another time. There is a lot of documentation on it. It is not my idea.

One of the few pre-existing interpretations I have found valid.

Five have fallen. One is. Rome was, at the time. Four had fallen from nebuchadnezzar statue. Regardless, of the exact naming convention, the meaning seems clear.

Egypt could be the sixth, who knows.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

I also view America as the woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet. Moon landing.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #16:

I also view America as the woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet. Moon landing.

Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is spiritual Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and will be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
 
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Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is spiritual Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and will be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

The eighth kingdom is mentioned oddly, because it is the resurrected head. The kingdom that was, that fell, is as if resurrected. That makes not seven kingdoms, but eight.

I do not post randomly, nor make up matters. It is okay to consider theories, and it is okay to not cite sources.

I post on Babylon for reference after the fact. After the investigations make history in a manner as yet unimagined. Systematic coverups, at the highest level. Serious differences between Rome and US lead to unusual level of cooperation.

Centuries of systematic coverup at the highest level.

A crime not even hardened criminals would engage in.

The mafia, even, would not hide the actions of pedophiles, much less keep them employed around children, systematically.

Right now, it is just quiet murmurs.

...

What, is the value of such assertions? Many such stories people make up, fitting their imaginings to what they see an audience wants to believe. Some of these do the same, as they also want to believe it.

Such things are useless.

But, if you show uncanny knowledge of something before the fact, the rhetorical question becomes interesting, pronounced. 'How did they know?'

These are the sorts of questions that the science establishment, the false prophet, will try and answer against Moses as the modern Jannes and Jambres.

The modern ideological economy is very much a big, fat bubble, in terms of betting no supernatural exists.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart said in post #18:

These are the sorts of questions that the science establishment, the false prophet, will try and answer against Moses as the modern Jannes and Jambres.

Do you mean that the science establishment is the False Prophet?

If so, note that the beast who comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are not we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Cannot we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). But he will not that say he is Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

--

If a secretly-apostate pope does become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 16:13), then adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well, and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth, will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy, and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him, and elect their own, new pope (or reinstate a former pope who is still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True Pope". But this new (or reinstated) "True Pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy, and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken the physical power of the true Church (which consists of all true Christians, whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future Tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus Christ's Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), of all times. And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all of the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God will not share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
 
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Do you mean that the science establishment is the False Prophet?

If so, note that the beast who comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the future Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13).

No, I am not making equivalencies. That can add and take away from the text, and so invoke the curse. (Though, like this wording, the curse is strange, one must bear in mind context, meaning, of what is given, and what is written.)

To say, for instance, 'the beast is California', in the lyrics to "Hotel California" might be correct. But, most likely the author meant something more ephemeral. Being a rock star, who had seen the decadent lifestyle possible there, he was probably referring to these aspects of California. As opposed to, for instance, a quiet native American tribe living in the northern California wilderness.

These are sophisticated metaphors.

Something, I do not see most who spread one interpretation or another seem to appreciate.

But, I do notice, in your writing, you are meticulous in adding "could be", "may be", and other such adjectives.

I knew an angel who I would suggest possible meanings, and she would never add a single possibility, nor confirm nor deny, anything. Yet, oddly, had made two suggestions, in the past, in the most offhand manner. In regards to one, anyway.

Yet, another one would read the text, yet not dare say anything in regards to it. Not what it meant, not at all.

But, you do add something here, stating that the beast is one man. The actual greek of the word is applicable to one man, or to plural man. In context of the metaphors, this certainly does not appear to be about one man. Especially, if you consider the model of Daniel's metaphors applicable. Which they certainly seem to be.

As for the false prophet 'could be said' to be the 'scientific establishment', that is from the mouth of a poet who is well used to the most obscure sort of sayings, and sophisticated types of metaphors. I am not stating that the 'false prophet is the science establishment', anymore then I am saying that 'the beast' of 'Hotel California' is distinctly 'all of California'. That destroys the very wording of the poem.

The author of that poem clearly did not mean such a thing.

But, most importantly, is the problem of translating the language. You can have the words in English, but that does not mean the contextual background of the language is kept. These are words transferred from two vastly disparate planes of reality. They certainly use the imagination of the prophet, at his time, and take into credence the readers, across time. But, there is still the writing coming from a very disparate, distant plane of reality. Whether that is far above, and outside of time, during all time, or in the far future. Or, a mixture, plus, of all, and more.

So, no, I am not cementing exactitudes onto lyrical poetry, where it does not not belong.

I can point out exactitudes I know, from the author, such as the identity of the two witnesses (they are one and the same, and the only Christ there has ever been)... but, then, what would this mean to the reader? They have no way to parse such an alien statement. It would make no sense to them, even if they had the capacity to believe it. Indeed, if they could grasp such an alien concept, it might simply drive them insane. But, they are far from being able to do so.

So, no, I parse in obscurities. There are exactitudes in these obscurities, however. Plain ones.

But, these, themselves, are not necessary to be hammered out.

For instance, the hailstones may be metaphoric for disclosures from Heaven.

What disclosures? I do not know.

The death and killings, are not always literal, just as with the Law. So, what does that reveal, about the secret workings of man? That there are things which kill us, yet do not literally kill us? Yes, there are.

Or, buying and selling. Buying and selling ideas.

Being able to trade in the marketplace, by people buying into you.

Or, a feast of flesh, a feast of friends. What are the exactitudes of this? What, exactly, are the birds? We can note that the flesh has works of its' own, which are in error, and that in correcting the error, there is a return to the spiritual. Sort of like burning flesh, cooking it, then consuming it.

What is the exactitude of that metaphor?

What are the blasphemous titles of Babylon?
 
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