The faith vs. works debate is missing the point. We have a bigger problem.....

[Gideons300]

This! ^



Your Christian Name fits you, Brother in Him!

Before you heap accolades my way, LOL, realize that both sides are missing the key ingredient. You may be calling me a heretic before it is all over.

blessings, brother

me

 

[Grip Docility]

Before you heap accolades my way, LOL, realize that both sides are missing the key ingredient. You may be calling me a heretic before it is all over.

blessings, brother

me

Not another Hairy Tick!

I’ll be sure to wear my Phylactery, when I call you out!!!!

 

[HatGuy]

But if this were the case, would we not see the older saints, those who have walked with the Lord for decades, as shining lights for the younger believers, encouraging them with their abundant fruits of love and selflessness to stay the course? And..... do we? Sadly, no.

Actually, we do . I have at least - many times.

 

[DamianWarS]

More to come......

Why not just say it all at once so we can start the banter?

Scripture tells us if we remain in him and he in us we will bear much fruit, I care less about if works comes before faith or the other way around, I'd rather focus on the remaining in him part so that Christ can do his part. The rest will sort itself out.

 

[Albion]

Thanks for your input. Good stuff.

To those who think that faith alone is what saves us, and obedience is not part of the equation once we are saved, we are forced to ignore rhe multitude of verses that say the opposite. Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do those things that I command you?" To those who take the OSAS position, what answer is there?

First, what does OSAS have to do with it?

And then, I don't think that believers in Sola Fide do normally say that obedience is not expected.

But to all those who are in the faith plus works camp, how many works? How long must we work to be assured we have done enough?

These agree that obedience is a part of our salvation, but wait. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, to forgive seventy times seven. He told us to love God with ALL of our hearts. How is that working for us?

If we obey 70% of the time, is that enough? And how do we know? He left no loophole taking into account our 'humanity'. He said for us to DO IT.

This I do concur with.

 

[dqhall]

I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

Jesus taught, if your faith is as small as a mustard seed you could move a mountain (Matt 17:20).

The Roman writer Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC) used the word faith in one of his books. The gist of his statement was such as faith makes good on its promises, or one who is faithful delivered what he promised. Paraphrased from De Officiis, Book 1 - Moral Goodness, 23

If you are faithful, you will be honest.

 

[Gideons300]

First, what does OSAS have to do with it?

And then, I don't think that believers in Sola Fide do normally say that obedience is not expected.


This I do concur with.

Thank you for writing. The reason I spoke of OSAS is that this viewpoint is the extreme of the faith plus nothing group of believers. They have carried it to the point that they believe nothing can cause us to lose our salvation.

Those scriptures I mentioned that tell us that if we do not obey His commandments, we are not His seem to be totally swept under the rug and never addressed.

Most OSAS adherants simply say that if someone is truly saved, they will not do terrible things. If they do, they were never saved to begin with.

The problem with this is that the many who are of the once saved always saved camp is that this gives the mindset that as long as they steer clear of murder and chld abuse, they are in like Flynn.

But it is not just gross disobedience that must be the condition of non-salvation. It is simply living our own lives, doing what we think is right.

Now, on the opposite spectrum are those who are in the conditional salvation camp. We can't let them off the hook, can we? LOL. These for the most part believe that one must continue to live Christian lives, but that is likewise looked at as continuing to go to church, and are required to do 'works'. The problem is, no one seems to be able to clearly define what works are needed, and how many fit the bill.

The extreme of this leads to a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) legalism, which the faith alone crowd rails againstvas heresy.

So right now, we are left with two choices.

1) We cannot lose our salvation.... period. This is grace turned into lasciviousness.

2) We can lose our salvation and are on a tightrope of obedience trying to keep our old nature in check as we try to die to self.... which never seems to happen.

More coming....

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

Ok, have I thoroughly whacked both hornet's nests enough? LOL?

But what God revealed to me in my miraculous visitation twelve years ago will satisfy BOTH sides. whoa. Impossible, you say? Far from it.Just wait.

What if 'works'..... things resulting from bearing fruit from Christ living IN us, were actually a promise, not a condition? Guys, that is a double whoa!

Is this even possible? Because if it is.... not only possible but actually guaranteed.... it is the ultimate game changer.

Is such a thing scriptural? Absolutely? Consider....

Has God not told us that if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and that we will bear much fruit?

Are we told that He will cause us both to will aaND to do of His good pleasure?

Has He not given us armor and a shield that He promises will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?

Have we not been delivered from the power of darkness?

Has our God not promised that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, and in fact will make a way of escape every time so that we will not succumb to it?

We have been told that because we have sin natures, we will never be able to always obey. Did God forget that part when He made those amazing promises? LOL.

The new covenant does not require obedience, it promises it! Don't believe me? Look at Ezekiel 36. Here God lays out the benefits of the new covenant. It is very similar to Jeremiah 31, the other place in the old Testament where the coning new covenant is detailed.

Look at verses 26 and 27.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Ezekiel 36:26-27


Glory to God! Obedience IS a promise, not a condition.

I will take a breather, and let that sink in. Do I realize this is 'new'? Trust me, I do.

blessings,

Gideon

P.S. If I hear tar bubbling or chickens squawking, I am outta here!

 

[Grip Docility]

Can anyone remind me what temperature is ideal to boil tar?

 

[Gideons300]

Jesus taught, if your faith is as small as a mustard seed you could move a mountain (Matt 17:20).

The Roman writer Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC) used the word faith in one of his books. The gist of his statement was such as faith makes good on its promises, or one who is faithful delivered what he promised. Paraphrased from De Officiis, Book 1 - Moral Goodness, 23

If you are faithful, you will be honest.

Likewise, if one is 'faithful', they will love one another as He has loved us, amen?

Grace does not lower the bar so we can scale it. It lets us see how exceedingly high the bar it, and then lifts us up and causes us to do the impossible.

blessings,

Gids

 

[Gideons300]

Can anyone remind me what temperature is ideal to boil tar?

Shhhhhhhhh.......

 

[Grip Docility]

@Gideons300 In sincerity, I follow what you are saying. I want to ask you a sincere question, possibly questions... but it's usually a litmus test from scripture that I employ, per scripture.

Should I shoot it, via PM, just ask you or let it go?

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, each side has their pet scriptures. Actually, it isn't a matter of "each" side, since there are dozens, sometimes hundreds of different Protestant interpretations for any given verse of Scripture. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations, and no debates over the meaning of its own book.

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

It seems to me that Gal 2:1-10 would be a good place to start. The topic they was circumcision but I'm sure works was discussed among the brethren at that time also. Vs. 10 also talks about works done after salvation.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you for writing. The reason I spoke of OSAS is that this viewpoint is the extreme of the faith plus nothing group of believers. They have carried it to the point that they believe nothing can cause us to lose our salvation.

Those scriptures I mentioned that tell us that if we do not obey His commandments, we are not His seem to be totally swept under the rug and never addressed.

Most OSAS adherants simply say that if someone is truly saved, they will not do terrible things. If they do, they were never saved to begin with.

The problem with this is that the many who are of the once saved always saved camp is that this gives the mindset that as long as they steer clear of murder and chld abuse, they are in like Flynn.

But it is not just gross disobedience that must be the condition of non-salvation. It is simply living our own lives, doing what we think is right.

Now, on the opposite spectrum are those who are in the conditional salvation camp. We can't let them off the hook, can we? LOL. These for the most part believe that one must continue to live Christian lives, but that is likewise looked at as continuing to go to church, and are required to do 'works'. The problem is, no one seems to be able to clearly define what works are needed, and how many fit the bill.

The extreme of this leads to a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) legalism, which the faith alone crowd rails againstvas heresy.

So right now, we are left with two choices.

1) We cannot lose our salvation.... period. This is grace turned into lasciviousness.

2) We can lose our salvation and are on a tightrope of obedience trying to keep our old nature in check as we try to die to self.... which never seems to happen.

More coming....

Gideon

What I'm asking is will you allow me to test the Spirit of what you are writing.... and if no... PM, or Response would suffice. If yes, PM or Open discussion would suffice.

 

[fhansen]

The controversy is pointless, it doesn't exist in the New Testament. Sometimes works can be works of the Law, which was rejected by the New Testament church at the Council of Jerusalem. James, who basically chaired the whole thing and commissioned the writing of Galatians speaks of another kind of works in James 2. Have you ever asked yourself, what works is James talking about? It's in the immediate context.

Right. Or the works mentioned in Eph 2:10 or those done "for the least of these" in Matt 25. These certainly can't be the works of the law that Paul spoke of, or the filthy rags in Is 64. There's an absolute and decided difference between some works and others. And the right works are motivated by love, and that kind of love is motivated by God.

 

[Gideons300]

@Gideons300 In sincerity, I follow what you are saying. I want to ask you a sincere question, possibly questions... but it's usually a litmus test from scripture that I employ, per scripture.

Should I shoot it, via PM, just ask you or let it go?

I suspect that I know the question, lol. But I like to live the life of a riverboat gambler, so you have my permission to let'er rip. Do I have the option of answering in private? LOL.

Just understand, my answer will probably exceed 10,000 words and come back in four parts.

blessings,

Gids

 

[Grip Docility]

I suspect that I know the question, lol. But I like to live the life of a riverboat gambler, so you have my permission to let'er rip. Do I have the option of answering in private? LOL.

Just understand, my answer will probably exceed 10,000 words and come back in four parts.

blessings,

Gids

River Boat Gambler! I'm Jealous! I'm making a career change... TODAY!

 

[Gideons300]

Yes, each side has their pet scriptures. Actually, it isn't a matter of "each" side, since there are dozens, sometimes hundreds of different Protestant interpretations for any given verse of Scripture. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations, and no debates over the meaning of its own book.

Brother, we are told that ALL will be found sleeping right before the end. Just as no one group has all the truth, no one group is exempt from sleeping. Some just snore louder than others.

This is not a denominational, or Protestant vs. Catholic issue. All are found sleeping, and all will awake. However, not all, once awakened, will respond by lighting their lamps.

blessings, and thanks for writing

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

River Boat Gambler! I'm Jealous! I'm making a career change... TODAY!

Hey, I hear there is an opening for a wheeler dealer. You interested?