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Ok, have I thoroughly whacked both hornet's nests enough? LOL?
But what God revealed to me in my miraculous visitation twelve years ago will satisfy BOTH sides. whoa. Impossible, you say? Far from it.Just wait.
What if 'works'..... things resulting from bearing fruit from Christ living IN us, were actually a promise, not a condition? Guys, that is a double whoa!
Is this even possible? Because if it is.... not only possible but actually guaranteed.... it is the ultimate game changer.
Is such a thing scriptural? Absolutely? Consider....
Has God not told us that if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and that we will bear much fruit?
Are we told that He will cause us both to will aaND to do of His good pleasure?
Has He not given us armor and a shield that He promises will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?
Have we not been delivered from the power of darkness?
Has our God not promised that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, and in fact will make a way of escape every time so that we will not succumb to it?
We have been told that because we have sin natures, we will never be able to always obey. Did God forget that part when He made those amazing promises? LOL.
The new covenant does not require obedience, it promises it! Don't believe me? Look at Ezekiel 36. Here God lays out the benefits of the new covenant. It is very similar to Jeremiah 31, the other place in the old Testament where the coning new covenant is detailed.
Look at verses 26 and 27.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Glory to God! Obedience IS a promise, not a condition.
I will take a breather, and let that sink in. Do I realize this is 'new'? Trust me, I do.
blessings,
Gideon
P.S. If I hear tar bubbling or chickens squawking, I am outta here!
lighting their lamps
Well I think this is where mercy and sonship come into play. People who raise your dilemma appear to be operating under an assumption that God looks at Christians as a strict lawgiver, or in the manner that a judge might look at a defendant. Or the view seems to be that all sins are the same in God’s eyes and that they would all disqualify a Christian if actually weighed. So if the Christian makes any error no matter how slight he would lose his inheritance (it seems that James 2:10 is often used here).But to all those who are in the faith plus works camp, how many works? How long must we work to be assured we have done enough?
These agree that obedience is a part of our salvation, but wait. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, to forgive seventy times seven. He told us to love God with ALL of our hearts. How is that working for us?
If we obey 70% of the time, is that enough? And how do we know? He left no loophole taking into account our 'humanity'. He said for us to DO IT.
Thus, we find that if we make obedience an absolute condition to our salvation, with no exceptions, who then can be saved.
As Paul and Moses both have said, I would give my eyes that others could see. Moses said he would have his name stricken from the book for Israel.
This is important...I was thinking of this today as the disciples were the primary audience of John 15...I wonder who their friends were that they died for...we know Paul asked to die for his fellow Jews, but what did the others ask for?
So far so good @Gideon. It came to me in 1990, that the missing key to my failures and despair, was that l had never reckoned myself dead with Christ. Oh l knew it positionally, but knowing it as a fact, that it happened two thousand years ago, l was not seeing it playing out in my life if l was comparing myself to the saints in the new testament.
I was still under the power of sin because l did or thought, what l did not want to do, and failed to do, or think, what l knew l should do, and after a good Sunday service, and being amongst fellow believers, l was back on Monday morning with the me that l was becoming increasingly disgusted with.
It took one final blow, where l was down on the ground in the dust that the truth came. I will let you continue though as you are explaining it better than l could.
Brother, you made my day. Those that I had had the pleasure of meeting who have put off the old man by faith and put on the new have one thing in common..... they finally came to the point they had NO strength.So far so good @Gideon. It came to me in 1990, that the missing key to my failures and despair, was that l had never reckoned myself dead with Christ. Oh l knew it positionally, but knowing it as a fact, that it happened two thousand years ago, l was not seeing it playing out in my life if l was comparing myself to the saints in the new testament.
I was still under the power of sin because l did or thought, what l did not want to do, and failed to do, or think, what l knew l should do, and after a good Sunday service, and being amongst fellow believers, l was back on Monday morning with the me that l was becoming increasingly disgusted with.
It took one final blow, where l was down on the ground in the dust that the truth came. I will let you continue though as you are explaining it better than l could.
This..Hi Gideon,
I do not doubt your salvation. The words you have given are the result of God's Spirit residing in you and knowledge of His Word speaking to your mind of faith.
I want to say that all you said is true, but I would like to emphasize something...
You mentioned Romans 6 and Romans 8. Indeed, both are involved - a work of the Spirit, but only to those who repent (a commitment to die to the old life) and believe and remain faithful to live by the Spirit we receive by faith.
Repentance
As Romans 6 teaches, that faith must include repentance (a commitment to die) to the old Master of Sin, and then to rise to a New Life in Christ as our only Master and Lord. This New Life is a life founded in LOVE. The entire NT is replete with teaching about repentance. Faith can never be divorced from repentance as Romans 6 and many other Scriptures clearly declare and teach - OT and NT.
This repentant faith in Christ Jesus is the only faith by which the Holy Spirit will indwell anyone to free them from sin and give our faith victory - but only as we continue in the faith demonstrated in walking by the Spirit of Christ to the end, as Romans 8 teaches.
Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Speaking to those already saved, who already have the Spirit of Christ, Paul teaches as follows:
Romans 8 (WEB) Bolding mine
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time wewill reap a harvest IF we do not give up.
So, what is Faith?
Faith involves believing the Gospel as Christ Jesus revealed it. And by that Gospel faith we understand clearly the command of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles to repent from slaving for the old Master of our sinful nature, and then, by that same faith, to rise in the promise of a New Life in Christ - our rightful Lord and Master.
This is the only faith by which the Spirit will come to indwell us to free us from sin's control to live in the New Way of the Spirit - a life of Love, but only as we continue in the faith, walking by His Spirit daily. This is Salvation from sin and death that Christ purchased for those who follow Him by faith.
Counting the Cost
So, as Jesus taught, we must count the cost of inheriting the Kingdom of God. And the cost is our lives - to give up our lives controlled by selfish ambition of our sinful natures and, by that same faith, to listen to and follow Jesus into a life of Love.
Matthew 13 (WEB) 44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Luke 14:27-
27 Whoever doesn’t bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple. 34 Salt is good, but if the salt becomes flat and tasteless, with what do you season it? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
By this faith alone are you now free to live for your New Master, Christ Jesus, living by His Spirit whom we receive by faith. By doing so, we fulfill the entire Law.
So God works in us to do His good pleasure. This promise is for those who have a true Bible Faith, working out their own salvation with reverent fear.
Why? The reason we must work our are salvation in reverent fear is because God lives in those who believe by the Spirit. So we must be careful to daily walk by His Spirit who dwells in us by faith - to live out the will of God for whom we have now given our lives to.
Our Faith does not earn our salvation...
This faith does not earn our salvation. Rather, God chooses to graciously accredit the righteousness of Christ to our accounts by faith. God chooses to reward our faithfulness until the end with the Crown of Life.
We don't deserve this great salvation from God; rather, God chooses to grant us the free gift of His salvation to all those who repent and believe in His Son, listening to and following Him to the end.
So yes, it is by our continued faith that we access God's Power and Grace onto salvation.
The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit who regenerates us, is only received and kept by faith:
By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23)
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17
Free Gift of Grace Paid for by Christ. . .
Even so, the free gift of God's grace onto salvation is received and kept by a genuine faith. And this saving grace is only possible because Christ paid for it on the cross for us.
It remains to ask the obvious Question ...Brother, you made my day. Those that I had had the pleasure of meeting who have put off the old man by faith and put on the new have one thing in common..... they finally came to the point they had NO strength.
And is rhat not exactly what God tells us?
"...and to them that have no strength, He increases might."
Feel free to share what you have learned. It would be much appreciated so others do not think I am just a crazy loon, lol.
Blessings to you!
Gideon
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Brother, you made my day. Those that I had had the pleasure of meeting who have put off the old man by faith and put on the new have one thing in common..... they finally came to the point they had NO strength.
And is rhat not exactly what God tells us?
"...and to them that have no strength, He increases might."
Feel free to share what you have learned. It would be much appreciated so others do not think I am just a crazy loon, lol.
Blessings to you!
Gideon
So why do we not see this working in our walks? We have missed the key that unlocks the lock to obedience. It is found back in Romans 6 right after Paul tells us we died with Christ and rose to newness of life.
What does he say? He tells us to DO something! What? He tells us, that knowing these are indisputable facts, to therefore reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.
while these men want to be free of sin's bondage and destruction, they don't always necessarily want God to rule them.
At my stage in life, I also see myself as in perpetual need of Christ's Grace and will most likely see this as the case until my death.
Grip no-one can move outside of that. The perfect man must rely on grace moment by moment as it is not his own righteousness he walks in. In fact he must cling to it more so than the unrighteous.
I deny original sin btw. I believe that all men will fall and become sinners and no longer innocent in their early childhood.
but noone ever really is free from these bodies of death until the time Paul said he could only be free from sin, fully, by leaving this earth... which I believe you understand the implication well.
I'm afraid I am not with you there brother. If man is born innocent and the two originals walked this earth without sin, then I do not see how God fails to have the power to do it again, to restore man to what he has fallen from (but higher) and defeat the enemy. besides He gives names of those in the OT who were perfect.
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.
This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!
Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!
blessings,
Gideon
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