Grip Docility
Well-Known Member
- Nov 27, 2017
- 7,019
- 2,784
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Hey, I hear there is an opening for a wheeler dealer. You interested?
How about something rather than nothing? Or about letting God determine how much is enough. We're just to put our hand to the plow and start turning the soil He's provided. In the Parable of the Talents some were given more, and proceeded to increase what was given by more. Another produced less but God was pleased with that. What He wasn't pleased with was the servant who rested on his laurels, who buried his talents.And how much do we have to produce to insure we make the cut?
Thanks for your input. Good stuff.
To those who think that faith alone is what saves us, and obedience is not part of the equation once we are saved, we are forced to ignore rhe multitude of verses that say the opposite. Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do those things that I command you?" To those who take the OSAS position, what answer is there?
Did the unprofitable servant who made no gain with what he had been entrusted have what was given to him taken away and given to another? Indeed he did.
Obedience is never done away with under the new covenant in the Word. I can list ten scriptures that confirm this.
But to all those who are in the faith plus works camp, how many works? How long must we work to be assured we have done enough?
These agree that obedience is a part of our salvation, but wait. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, to forgive seventy times seven. He told us to love God with ALL of our hearts. How is that working for us?
If we obey 70% of the time, is that enough? And how do we know? He left no loophole taking into account our 'humanity'. He said for us to DO IT.
Thus, we find that if we make obedience an absolute condition to our salvation, with no exceptions, who then can be saved.
Both sides are looking at it from different points of view, but scripturally, both are in error to one degree or another.
This brings us to a crisis of faith, for we MUST obey, and yet, in truth, we are not obeying. What is missing? What are we not understanding that gives us both the assurance of our salvation, but also produces true heart obedience in our walks.
There is but one way, The new man. Paul tells us that we died when Christ died, amen? Our old nature died when He died. Likewise, we are told that when Christ rose from the dead, we rose with Him to newness of life.
Most everyone will nod their heads in agreement but then say "Well, so what?" We mentally agree with these truths, but we have failed to understand that these truths must be PUT ON. We must, by faith, appropriate them as our own.
Here is the error we have fallen into. We think this is some sort of positional thing, but it is far more than that. If we truly love the Lord, we ARE new creatures, Christ is no longer with us. He is IN us!
Some will protest however. They will say that it changes nothing. We still have the flesh to deal with. Yes, we still reside in fleshly bodies, but our nature is NEW. Sin has no authority over this new nature. Paul tell us clearly in Romans 8 that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it a big fat NOTHING.
So why do we not see this working in our walks? We have missed the key that unlocks the lock to obedience. It is found back in Romans 6 right after Paul tells us we died with Christ and rose to newness of life.
What does he say? He tells us to DO something! What? He tells us, that knowing these are indisputable facts, to therefore reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.
When I have my miraculous visitation now twelve years ago, this is exactly what God brought me to. I had done a multitude of things to try to walk in obedience and all failed. I had fasted up to 21 days, memorized scripture, never missed church, worked as a home pastor and in jail ministry, and in the end I was still just a religious but very carnal Christian, and not walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God He had promised us. Free indeed? Ha! Sin had me still.
But when I received the revelation that I had never actually believed that I was a new creature, right here, right now, and I finally stepped out in faith and confessed that I owed the flesh not one more sin, that I had a new nature, one that not only wanted to obey but COULD obey, the gigantic door blocking me from walking as an overcomer swung open, and everything changed, and I do mean everything.
More to come......
blessings,
Gids
I see now, although they are a minority among the Christians who subscribe to Sola Fide, and I think that's what put me off.Thank you for writing. The reason I spoke of OSAS is that this viewpoint is the extreme of the faith plus nothing group of believers. They have carried it to the point that they believe nothing can cause us to lose our salvation.
Apparently I do not see that to be the case. To have faith virtually necessitates keeping whatever commands, admonitions, teachings, etc. that the Bible shows to be from Christ...or else the person couldn't really be a follower of Christ, right? It would be like acclaiming vegetarianism but continuing to order the double steakburger. The one cannot really be squared with the other.Those scriptures I mentioned that tell us that if we do not obey His commandments, we are not His seem to be totally swept under the rug and never addressed.
Most OSAS adherants simply say that if someone is truly saved, they will not do terrible things. If they do, they were never saved to begin with.
Then we are talking about people who do not understand the principle that OSAS describes. We can dismiss them on that basis, but it doesn't show that there is anything wrong or contradictory about Sola Fide itself.The problem with this is that the many who are of the once saved always saved camp is that this gives the mindset that as long as they steer clear of murder and child abuse, they are in like Flynn.
Gideon, what happened to the basic Faith Alone belief that is held to by most Protestant churches? You seem to have boiled your study down to OSAS people who do not understand OSAS (or else prove it wrong) OR Faith plus Works people a la the Catholics?So right now, we are left with two choices.
1) We cannot lose our salvation.... period. This is grace turned into lasciviousness.
2) We can lose our salvation and are on a tightrope of obedience trying to keep our old nature in check as we try to die to self.... which never seems to happen.
More coming....
Gideon
It's always good to try and reconcile the two.I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.
This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!
Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!
blessings,
Gideon
Hmm, this is historic Christianity. For the most part. But knowing that is one thing while doing it is another, as Christians have proved throughout the centuries. Some have done it and probably a great many more have not. Some making a shipwreck of their faith and some a mockery of the Christian religion. Congratulations if you're succeeding. That's a truly precious thing.Ok, have I thoroughly whacked both hornet's nests enough? LOL?
But what God revealed to me in my miraculous visitation twelve years ago will satisfy BOTH sides. whoa. Impossible, you say? Far from it.Just wait.
What if 'works'..... things resulting from bearing fruit from Christ living IN us, were actually a promise, not a condition? Guys, that is a double whoa!
Is this even possible? Because if it is.... not only possible but actually guaranteed.... it is the ultimate game changer.
Is such a thing scriptural? Absolutely? Consider....
Has God not told us that if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and that we will bear much fruit?
Are we told that He will cause us both to will aaND to do of His good pleasure?
Has He not given us armor and a shield that He promises will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?
Have we not been delivered from the power of darkness?
Has our God not promised that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, and in fact will make a way of escape every time so that we will not succumb to it?
We have been told that because we have sin natures, we will never be able to always obey. Did God forget that part when He made those amazing promises? LOL.
The new covenant does not require obedience, it promises it! Don't believe me? Look at Ezekiel 36. Here God lays out the benefits of the new covenant. It is very similar to Jeremiah 31, the other place in the old Testament where the coning new covenant is detailed.
Look at verses 26 and 27.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Glory to God! Obedience IS a promise, not a condition.
I will take a breather, and let that sink in. Do I realize this is 'new'? Trust me, I do.
blessings,
Gideon
P.S. If I hear tar bubbling or chickens squawking, I am outta here!
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.
This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!
Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!
blessings,
Gideon
Love the Lord your God with yiour whole heart, mind, soul,that sums it up. the debate about works and faith are a waste of tilme.I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.
This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!
Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!
blessings,
Gideon
That's one of two principles the whole Law hinged on. The second one is mentioned James 2 in connection with faith and deeds, he calls it the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself.Love the Lord your God with yiour whole heart, mind, soul,that sums it up. the debate about works and faith are a waste of tilme.
How about something rather than nothing? Or about letting God determine how much is enough. We're just to put our hand to the plow and start turning the soil He's provided. In the Parable of the Talents some were given more, and proceeded to increase what was given by more. Another produced less but God was pleased with that. What He wasn't pleased was the servant who rested on his laurels, who buried his talents.
What you have shared is very true brother. VERY true.Hi Gideon,
I do not doubt your salvation. The words you have given are the result of God's Spirit residing in you and knowledge of His Word speaking to your mind of faith.
I want to say that all you said is true, but I would like to emphasize something...
You mentioned Romans 6 and Romans 8. Indeed, both are involved - a work of the Spirit, but only to those who repent (a commitment to die to the old life) and believe and remain faithful to live by the Spirit we receive by faith.
Repentance
As Romans 6 teaches, that faith must include repentance (a commitment to die) to the old Master of Sin, and then to rise to a New Life in Christ as our only Master and Lord. This New Life is a life founded in LOVE. The entire NT is replete with teaching about repentance. Faith can never be divorced from repentance as Romans 6 and many other Scriptures clearly declare and teach - OT and NT.
This repentant faith in Christ Jesus is the only faith by which the Holy Spirit will indwell anyone to free them from sin and give our faith victory - but only as we continue in the faith demonstrated in walking by the Spirit of Christ to the end, as Romans 8 teaches.
Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Speaking to those already saved, who already have the Spirit of Christ, Paul teaches as follows:
Romans 8 (WEB) Bolding mine
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time wewill reap a harvest IF we do not give up.
So, what is Faith?
Faith involves believing the Gospel as Christ Jesus revealed it. And by that Gospel faith we understand clearly the command of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles to repent from slaving for the old Master of our sinful nature, and then, by that same faith, to rise in the promise of a New Life in Christ - our rightful Lord and Master.
This is the only faith by which the Spirit will come to indwell us to free us from sin's control to live in the New Way of the Spirit - a life of Love, but only as we continue in the faith, walking by His Spirit daily. This is Salvation from sin and death that Christ purchased for those who follow Him by faith.
Counting the Cost
So, as Jesus taught, we must count the cost of inheriting the Kingdom of God. And the cost is our lives - to give up our lives controlled by selfish ambition of our sinful natures and, by that same faith, to listen to and follow Jesus into a life of Love.
Matthew 13 (WEB) 44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Luke 14:27-
27 Whoever doesn’t bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple. 34 Salt is good, but if the salt becomes flat and tasteless, with what do you season it? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
By this faith alone are you now free to live for your New Master, Christ Jesus, living by His Spirit whom we receive by faith. By doing so, we fulfill the entire Law.
So God works in us to do His good pleasure. This promise is for those who have a true Bible Faith, working out their own salvation with reverent fear.
Why? The reason we must work our are salvation in reverent fear is because God lives in those who believe by the Spirit. So we must be careful to daily walk by His Spirit who dwells in us by faith - to live out the will of God for whom we have now given our lives to.
Our Faith does not earn our salvation...
This faith does not earn our salvation. Rather, God chooses to graciously accredit the righteousness of Christ to our accounts by faith. God chooses to reward our faithfulness until the end with the Crown of Life.
We don't deserve this great salvation from God; rather, God chooses to grant us the free gift of His salvation to all those who repent and believe in His Son, listening to and following Him to the end.
So yes, it is by our continued faith that we access God's Power and Grace onto salvation.
The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit who regenerates us, is only received and kept by faith:
By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23)
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17
Free Gift of Grace Paid for by Christ. . .
Even so, the free gift of God's grace onto salvation is received and kept by a genuine faith. And this saving grace is only possible because Christ paid for it on the cross for us.
I agree. So may I be so bold to ask (while I slip into my tar and feather resistant armor)..... are we?I see now, although they are a minority among the Christians who subscribe to Sola Fide, and I think that's what put me off.
Apparently I do not see that to be the case. To have faith virtually necessitates keeping whatever commands, admonitions, teachings, etc. that the Bible shows to be from Christ...or else the person couldn't really be a follower of Christ, right? It would be like acclaiming vegetarianism but continuing to order the double steakburger. The one cannot really be squared with the other.
OK
Then we are talking about people who do not understand the principle that OSAS describes. We can dismiss them on that basis, but it doesn't show that there is anything wrong or contradictory about Sola Fide itself.
Gideon, what happened to the basic Faith Alone belief that is held to by most Protestant churches? You seem to have boiled your study down to OSAS people who do not understand OSAS (or else prove it wrong) OR Faith plus Works people a la the Catholics?
The standard Protestant belief that I thought was going to be one half of the either-or contrast here has been dropped out of the thread. (??)
I like that! I will put in a good word with the boss concerning that wheeler dealer position. ☺️I'll take a crack at your well placed question...
Because Jesus is the very initial (Loved us First) Drawing of the Father (1 John 2:2)... and the Father grasps and Draws all who respond, with all desire to Seal and Save an individual (Enter Parable of the Sower), provide all of their needs for Salvation, equip the "Saint" (Fancy word for Propitiated for and Forgiven Sinner)... and utilize them to free more people from the condemnation of Satan, into the Grace of Christ... that is free upon Belief into true belief...
God is desiring the Saved share the King's wealth, instead of bury the Gift in a pursuit of carnal perfection.
I am not debating which is right. You are correct. If we love God with ALL of our hearts, all will be well.Love the Lord your God with yiour whole heart, mind, soul,that sums it up. the debate about works and faith are a waste of tilme.
Its a reasonable inquiry, I agree. There is no one among us who does all that he could do, but I feel that many have changed their lives significantly in accordance with their acceptance of Christ. Otherwise, I don't know how to respond.I agree. So may I be so bold to ask (while I slip into my tar and feather resistant armor)..... are we?
Do we love our neighbor as we love ourselves? Do we love God with ALL of our hearts? Are we running our race as if there is but one prize? Are we earnestly contending for the faith or are we relaxing behind the wheel, going through our weekly religious regimen?
Is our eye single? Have we fled sin and resisted the devil to the point of shedding blood?
You see, if we are honest, we have to admit to the truth that there is far more disobedience than we care to admit to in our lives. And worse yet, by and large, we are quite content to let it continue.
I like that! I will put in a good word with the boss concerning that wheeler dealer position. ☺️
Gids
Hmm, "carnal perfection"? Or the righteousness/justice/holiness that He, alone, can realize in man? It's up to Him, you know, and not ourselves, what He wants from-and for-us.
Well a lot of it is semantics. If you get into it many of the "faith alone" folks seem to define faith in a way that necessitates works, although the formal ground for justification remains faith. I think the phrase is something like "We are saved by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone". Likewise many of the "faith plus works" (for lack of a better term) folks can say that we are saved by "faith alone" if the concept of faith includes love and charity. In either case there must be faith and works, so just putting your trust in the Lord, trying to live according to his will, and asking for his mercy, is really what we all should be focused on, rather than the particular theology I think.I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.
Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?
I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.
Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.
Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.
This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!
Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!
blessings,
Gideon
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?