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the evo game

dad

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"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
So, a new creature is discovered here, and here is what they say. (Assuming things evolved from this). Yeah, right, let's play try to make it sort of look like something that exists, or at least we have a fossil that sort of looks like it!
 

dad

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nvxplorer said:
What's your point, dad? The scientists are unsure how to classify the species. This is not a bad thing. There could be extinct phyla which we have no knowledge of. Just because we don't have all the answers doesn't invalidate the answers we do have.

But what answers do we have? Here we see the evo strategy of simply trying to make it somewhat look like the created creature kind of might look like something we know about.
 
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troodon

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dad said:
"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
So, a new creature is discovered here, and here is what they say. (Assuming things evolved from this). Yeah, right, let's play try to make it sort of look like something that exists, or at least we have a fossil that sort of looks like it!

What do you expect them to do? Thow up their arms and say "well, it doesn't obviously fall into any modern phylum so let's not bother to classify it"? You see, dad, the closer one gets to the base of any evolutionary lineage the less like the modern representatives the organisms are going to look. And when we get close enough to a branch between two different evolutionary lineages, it eventually becomes very difficult, maybe impossible, to tell which organisms come from which lineage.

Let me give you an example. Let's say, for argument's sake, that evolution exists and that mollusks and chordates share a common ancestor. Now, after the lifetime of the most recent common ancestor, what you are going to get is two different evolutionary lineages evolving separately from each other. The longer they are separated the more mutations they accrue and the more different they appear. After a certain amount of time they even begin to evolve the physical characteristics by which we now classify them (a calcium carbonate shell and a notochord respectively). However, before those characteristics evolve we may very well have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

Try and think about it logically from the scientists' shoes, then you see the method.

But what answers do we have? Here we see the evo strategy of simply trying to make it somewhat look like the created creature kind of might look like something we know about.

Speaking from a creationist point of view, shouldn't we be doing the same? Linnaeus classified hundreds of animals without evolution guiding him. Is there a reason why all animals today clearly fall into Mollusk or Echinoderm or some other phyla while so many extinct ones do not? Wasn't God supposed to have been the common designer who liked reusing old models for different organisms?
 
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AirPo

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dad said:
"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
So, a new creature is discovered here, and here is what they say. (Assuming things evolved from this). Yeah, right, let's play try to make it sort of look like something that exists, or at least we have a fossil that sort of looks like it!

I want to play too! This sort of looks like something I've seen before.

B2.jpg
 
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futzman

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dad said:
"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
So, a new creature is discovered here, and here is what they say. (Assuming things evolved from this). Yeah, right, let's play try to make it sort of look like something that exists, or at least we have a fossil that sort of looks like it!

Discovery of a new fossil that doesn't fit existing phyla is pretty exciting. How does this invalidate the theory of evolution?

Futz (still wondering why God couldn't get it right with Brachiopoda...)
 
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dad

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sidiousmax225 said:
The scientists should just refer to merged universe biology and toss the specimen into a random catagory, which would make sense in a merged universe kind of way.
I think you are trying to say creation here. Yes, it was a created creature. Why cavort with hand rubbing glee at the chance to try to imagine it really was just something that fell out of the evo tree!!
 
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sidiousmax225

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dad said:
I think you are trying to say creation here. Yes, it was a created creature. Why cavort with hand rubbing glee at the chance to try to imagine it really was just something that fell out of the evo tree!!

In a merged universe, dad makes sense.
 
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Grengor

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Why is it that many typical creationists just ignore the bigger posts, and go for the easier ones, that usually aren't really in discussion of the OP. Though I have seen an effort from him before to at least try to adress the sometimes, numerous amount of responses.
 
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dad

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futzman said:
Discovery of a new fossil that doesn't fit existing phyla is pretty exciting. How does this invalidate the theory of evolution?

Futz (still wondering why God couldn't get it right with Brachiopoda...)
It isn't meant to. All it shows is experts admitting they "We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," as well as "These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla" In other words, of course, try to use it to fit their beliefs. Even if they have to bang in a square peg into a creation round one! "Since Vetustodermis requires some "pushing and pulling" to force it into any known phylum, Professor Bottjer and his colleagues are tempted to speculate it belonged to a different group entirely; one which flourished and faded within the Cambrian. " In other words, they really haven't a clue, but have the power to play here, for the time being, God.
 
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dad

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troodon said:
What do you expect them to do? Thow up their arms and say "well, it doesn't obviously fall into any modern phylum so let's not bother to classify it"?
Ha. Well, better to admit they are clueless, that to conive ways to hoodwink us, I'd say.



You see, dad, the closer one gets to the base of any evolutionary lineage the less like the modern representatives the organisms are going to look. And when we get close enough to a branch between two different evolutionary lineages, it eventually becomes very difficult, maybe impossible, to tell which organisms come from which lineage.
Because they didn't. No need to agonize here, cut the baloney. Admit it!

Let me give you an example. Let's say, for argument's sake, that evolution exists and that mollusks and chordates share a common ancestor.
Right, OK, granny, or the tooth fairy, you pick.
Now, after the lifetime of the most recent common ancestor, what you are going to get is two different evolutionary lineages evolving separately from each other.
Only in your brain.

The longer they are separated the more mutations they accrue and the more different they appear.

Objection, speculation.

After a certain amount of time they even begin to evolve the physical characteristics by which we now classify them (a calcium carbonate shell and a notochord respectively).
Prove there was this certain amount of time to work with. Prove also that God didn't make similar looking creatures, that evos are just having a field day with.
However, before those characteristics evolve we may very well have a hard time distinguishing between the two.
Well you may. Perhaps if you called granny, or the tooth fairy, they'd clue you in?

Try and think about it logically from the scientists' shoes, then you see the method.
Oh I see the method to the madness all right.



Speaking from a creationist point of view, shouldn't we be doing the same?
Are you fricin kidding?

Linnaeus classified hundreds of animals without evolution guiding him.
So what was guiding him? Inspiration?

Is there a reason why all animals today clearly fall into Mollusk or Echinoderm or some other phyla while so many extinct ones do not?
Probably, but you will never get at it with that approach. Looking at it from the outward from eden migration, and creatures already on the outside world for a reason, it is a piece of cake. No forcing, and twisting needed, much.
Wasn't God supposed to have been the common designer who liked reusing old models for different organisms?
Where did you dig that silly gem up?
 
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troodon

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dad said:
Ha. Well, better to admit they are clueless, that to conive ways to hoodwink us, I'd say.


Because they didn't. No need to agonize here, cut the baloney. Admit it!

Right, OK, granny, or the tooth fairy, you pick.

Only in your brain.

Objection, speculation.

Prove there was this certain amount of time to work with. Prove also that God didn't make similar looking creatures, that evos are just having a field day with.
Well you may. Perhaps if you called granny, or the tooth fairy, they'd clue you in?

Oh I see the method to the madness all right.

dad, I said assuming evolution is correct. You see, if you are going to demonstrate why a theory is incorrect you have to see why it doesn't fit the evidence... in order to do that you have to assume that it is correct and then see if there are any factual or logical problems that it brings up.

That's part of the scientific method. You take the hypothesis, you assume (in your mind) that it's true, and then you see what predictions it mandates. You then test those predictions. In this example, if you assume evolution to be correct, then for the reasons I outlined in my previous thread you would predict animals to have existed that look like they could be in 2 or more modern phyla. This is exactly what this fossil is, ergo this fossil actually validates a prediction of evolutionary theory.


Are you fricin kidding?

No, I am not. If Creationism took over in the scientific community would biologists stop classifying organisms?


So what was guiding him? Inspiration?

Anatomy and defining characteristics.


Probably, but you will never get at it with that approach. Looking at it from the outward from eden migration, and creatures already on the outside world for a reason, it is a piece of cake. No forcing, and twisting needed, much.

How does that explain what did and didn't go extinct after the Fall?

Where did you dig that silly gem up?

It's the excuse Creationists use to try and explain away homology.
 
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dad

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troodon said:
dad, I said assuming evolution is correct.
But this says nothing.

You see, if you are going to demonstrate why a theory is incorrect you have to see why it doesn't fit the evidence...
My theories fit evidence, and I don't have to scramble like a spider trying to force and mutilate the simple evidence we actually do have.
in order to do that you have to assume that it is correct and then see if there are any factual or logical problems that it brings up.
One that comes to mind is that it is at odds with a simple reading of God's word. Another is that there is no proof, just covorting evos, trying to glue whatever pops up into their old bag of tricks.
That's part of the scientific method. You take the hypothesis, you assume (in your mind) that it's true, and then you see what predictions it mandates.
OK, I assume the split is true, and see in my mind a nice cambrian out of eden created creature, and wow that it mandates a creator. Is that all?

You then test those predictions.

This rules yours out. All they do here is play, 'where to stick it'.

In this example, if you assume evolution to be correct, then for the reasons I outlined in my previous thread you would predict animals to have existed that look like they could be in 2 or more modern phyla.

I'd go back and check your work here.

This is exactly what this fossil is, ergo this fossil actually validates a prediction of evolutionary theory.
I guess every time they have no clue whatsoever, and play a stick it where it feels good game, this fulfills their predictions? So what? It is still less than nothing. No wonder that at the end of this so called reason. lies a non existant granny!




No, I am not. If Creationism took over in the scientific community would biologists stop classifying organisms?
Ha. Jesus will take over, and yes, the survivors, if any will not play such games.




Anatomy and defining characteristics.
According to who-Garp? His opinions and others may differ, as to what defines what.




How does that explain what did and didn't go extinct after the Fall?
Well, that has exactly what to do with this hitherto unknown critter?



It's the excuse Creationists use to try and explain away homology
"


Richard Owen (1848) introduced the term homology to refer to structural similarities among organisms.

To Owen, these similarities indicated that organisms were created following a common plan or archetype. That is, although each species is unique, the plans for each might share many features, just as the design plans for a Honda Civic and a Honda Prelude might be similar. "
What about it? They were created, so what?
 
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T

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dad said:
It isn't meant to. All it shows is experts admitting they "We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," as well as "These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla" In other words, of course, try to use it to fit their beliefs. Even if they have to bang in a square peg into a creation round one! "Since Vetustodermis requires some "pushing and pulling" to force it into any known phylum, Professor Bottjer and his colleagues are tempted to speculate it belonged to a different group entirely; one which flourished and faded within the Cambrian. " In other words, they really haven't a clue, but have the power to play here, for the time being, God.
Dang, you got phat quote minin skillz ;)
 
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futzman

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dad said:
It isn't meant to. All it shows is experts admitting they "We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the extant phyla," as well as "These fossils really offer the opportunity to tie together recent phyla" In other words, of course, try to use it to fit their beliefs. Even if they have to bang in a square peg into a creation round one! "Since Vetustodermis requires some "pushing and pulling" to force it into any known phylum, Professor Bottjer and his colleagues are tempted to speculate it belonged to a different group entirely; one which flourished and faded within the Cambrian. " In other words, they really haven't a clue, but have the power to play here, for the time being, God.

I'm still failing to see what this has to do with invalidating evolution and providing evidence for ID. Please explain how this provides evidence for ID or YEC or any god-induced, supernatural explanation for life.

And what about those 4400 genera of the Brachiopoda God didn't like?

Futz
 
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