The 'evil' in the Old Testament

[Cain Spencer]

I can't worship someone out of fear. That makes God sound extremely petty, and if that is how God behaves, then perhaps I shouldn't be a Christian.

No, perhaps you should be pagan? Would you feel better if you knew that by animal sacrifices He wouldn't any longer be angry with you for your sins? At least for a day anyhow.

My dear, God does not hate you, you have NO REASON to fear Him at all in anyway what-so-ever. He adores and practically worships you. Though He is distant. You probably just about make out what His whispers are saying.

 

[.Iona.]

No, perhaps you should be pagan? Would you feel better if you knew that by animal sacrifices He wouldn't any longer be angry with you for your sins? At least for a day anyhow.

I'm actually vegetarian.... so no animal sacrifices for me.

My dear, God does not hate you, you have NO REASON to fear Him at all in anyway what-so-ever. He adores and practically worships you. Though He is distant. You probably just about make out what His whispers are saying.

Well, if we are to worship God out of fear then yes, I should have something to fear from Him. Otherwise it would be His love and kindness that we are to worship Him.

If He adores and worships us, why threaten us with death?! That just looks like He doesn't really care what happens.

 

[Cain Spencer]

I'm actually vegetarian.... so no animal sacrifices for me.

This is why we have Him in communion.

Well, if we are to worship God out of fear then yes, I should have something to fear from Him.

He will not touch you to punish you. He will not ever punish you, in any way at all.

Otherwise it would be His love and kindness that we are to worship Him.

Yes you see, He loves for us to adore Him but He loves you far more than you could ever love him and He does not even expect you to love him back.

If He adores and worships us, why threaten us with death?!

Because, remember, life is not "life" at its fullest. Death is not an end. Physical life is just that "Physical" life. He prevents you from harming yourself even further by preventing you from physically existing.

Beyond physical life, you cannot sin.

That just looks like He doesn't really care what happens.

What is the worst thing that can happen?

Abundant blessings.

 

[Hairy Tic]

there are many reasons in the OT why people were stoned

touching Mount Sinai - Exodus 19:13
taking "accursed things" - Joshua 7:1-26
cursing or blaspheming - Leviticus 24:16
adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
animals (like an ox that gores a human) - Exodus 21:28
a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night - Deuteronomy 22:13-21
worshipping other gods - Deuteronomy 13:5-10; 17:2-5,
disobeying parents - Deuteronomy 21:18-21
witches and wizards - Leviticus 20:27
giving your children to Molech Leviticus 20:2
breaking the Sabbath - Numbers 15:32-56
cursing the king - 1 Kings 21:10

But the OT is not today and you can't compare the two wondering why we can be so civilized today yet in the OT they seemed barbaric.

1. Don't think we are so civilized today and 2. The OT was a time that called for the people of God to be set aside from all others and to uphold the highest standards. corruption, even on the smallest level, was dealt with harshly to ensure God's people would be able to preserve themselves.

## That sort of behaviour is found in dictatorships - it has nothing to do w/ God. Robespierre was "the sea-green incorruptible" - that did not interfere w. his propensity for separating the heads of "the enemies of the revolution" from the bodies that accompanied them. A puritanical dictator is anything but an impossibility. Hitler was a clean-living person. Examples could probably be multiplied.

FWIW, it's quite possible that the item about Molech is an Israelite slander - the OT is not a good place for an unbiassed account of what happened, for it gives us only one side, the Israelite/Jewish side. We don't hear from the Amalekites, Hivites, Horites, Hittites, Egyptians, & others - only from the Israelites/Jews. They - to be precise, their prophets & priests - didn't like Baal & Asherah & Chemosh, & it shows

If the "rules" weren't there and they weren't dealt with harshly then people would find ways to exploit them and the nation of Israel would have disappeared.

## Stalin was not averse to the occasional well-judged severity either. The argument you're using is immoral, because it depends on the false principle that the means justifies the end. It would have been better for Israel to have disappeared, than for it to have to have been built on harshness in the way described - the stability of OT Israel is not worth such a moral price.

We tend to hold life as the most precious thing in the universe but in reality it is but a drop in an ocean; we cannot escape death except through the return of Jesus. Certainly people in the OT could not escape death (except of course Enoch) I don't know what happened to the people who were stoned in the OT and if or how they were forgiven. But if they remained alive there presence would have infected Israel form the inside out and destroyed them.

## That is an excellent reason for persecuting Protestants in Catholic countries - they are infectious, a pollutant; & must be dealt with. It's their fault alone if they are put to death - they have plenty of opportunity to be converted to the true religion. Only wilful blindness can explain their failure to see the light. It's not every day a non-Catholic serves up an argument for the various Inquisitions

I will leave the judging up to God as I'm sure there were people who were stoned and legitimately sought forgiveness but it is something that had to be done

## "Necessity, the tyrant's plea"

and was a legitimate and common practice in that culture and time. For that day it was not considered cruel and usually punishment it was the most effective way of killing someone.

## If so, it's a bit much for Christians today to complain of the Inquisitions. The Chinese would also appreciate that argument: shooting Christians through the back of the head does get rid of them in a "most effective way".

The love of God has nothing to do with how we are treated here on earth.

## We can murder one another then ? Surely not - for what is the Love of God worth, if it has no effect on how we behave to one another ? If it is inactive or quiescent, it might as well not be talked about, for in such circumstances it means no more than the Love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. God is not able in such circumstances to rebuke us for not showing by our deeds that or words have meaning - we may be hypocrites for failing to match deeds to words, but God is the Arch-Hypocrite, if His Love does nor affect how we are treated on earth. Such a God needs to cure Himself before rebuking Christians.

If I lived in Iran today I could be stoned for very much of the same reasons as the Israelites were in the OT. We all need to submit to the law that is over us and if we do not we may suffer the consequences no matter how harsh or unjust they are. God's love is about his forgiveness however the ultimate purpose is not so we live a long life on earth it is so we join God in fullness and that is what forgiveness does. Those people in the OT who were stoned may have still partook in the grace of Jesus Christ.

## If stoning in Iran today is barbaric, how is stoning in ancient Israel not barbaric ? Maybe the Taleban were basically = ancient Israel, but in the 20th century. After all, Joshua basically = Hitler, in ancient Israelite garb. If Hitler is not a Saint, why is Joshua ? Conversely, what possible objection can there be to Saint Adolf Hitler, when Joshua is honoured as a Saint & hero rather than rejected as a savage ? As for Joshua the type of Christ, Joshua is more a type of Antichrist, for he did deeds worthy of Antichrist. The good thing about events in Iran & Afghanistan is that they reveal the misery & evil & cruelty that the so-called heroes of the OT must, if their exploits have any historical reality, have perpetrated. It is all too easy to be dazzled by the veneer of piety in which their crimes are narrated - the OT would have its readers ignore the fact that those who are so briefly dismissed as "evil" or "idolaters" or the like we human beings. Instead of being so taken w/ the Israelites, it's time the OT's readers had some sympathy for the peoples they raped, murdered, exterminated, & plundered.

Or are old Testament crimes by the "godly" excused by being in the Bible ? That is how it seems, b/c people who are not slow to condemn atrocities committed in the name of Christ (& they should condemn them) often seem to have no difficulty defending the atrocities of the war-criminal Joshua, or the command of Samuel to Saul that the Amalekites should be totally exterminated. That command is pure Nazism - it is exactly what the SS & others under the command of Hitler did. It is no defence to say that Samuel was commanded by God, while Hitler was not: that is if anything an accusation against the God worshipped by Samuel, for it implies that God positively requires His servants to exterminate others. Such a God is "Our Hitler that art in Heaven", a devil, & not a God at all. A fetish or an idol is less harmful than such a God as that.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Yes, the time was different and stoning does still happen in some countries. I know that. But, how can you put faith in God when He has said you should be killed for the things you may have done? That's what I find difficult.

## These days, rulers do not justify their political decisions theologically. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, wars of expansion or self-defence, raids and expeditions to "pacify" rebellions were thought of as undertaken because the national god or gods wanted this - they were justified theologically. Political authority was sacred, divine - as w/ the Papacy it still is; Popes are priest-kings. Only later than OT world is power "secularised". In Assyria, the crime of rebellion was not conceptualised as a crime, but as sin. It was a sin against the true King of Assyria, the god Asshur. That being so, His deputy & priest the king of Assyria had to avenge it: he was the "weapon of the great gods" in doing so. This is perhaps why the Assyrians have a reputation for great cruelty - they may have considered that great crimes/sins like rebellion deserved to be punished w/ the greatest possible severity.

How do we know of these things ? B/c they wrote it down, & a lot of it has survived.

Just as the Assyrians had their gods, & their King of the gods, so did the Israelites/Jews: their god was the King of the gods/sons of Elohim/"angels". The difference between Asshur & the God of the Israelites is that the god of Israel is still worshipped. Historically, the Jews/Israelites were just another ANE nation, no different from the others. There was no reason why they should be better - it's also important to remember that the OT texts were, on the whole, not written down at the same time as the events they speak of; & they have all been through a long process of editing. We must not read them as though they consciously looked forward to the NT, simply b/c there is not the slightest reason to imagine that they did.

Any help to you ?

I'm not trying to cause a debate, I just want to try and get my faith back to where it was, but this is one thing that is stopping it.

I want to trust in God, but always feel that He would say that I should be killed for my sins. Did He send Jesus to stop that killing, or should that still be part of it?

## He sent Jesus to take the medicine He had insisted others must take. God obeys His own Law, completely - unlike human law-givers, who sometimes put themselves above their own laws. God is not like that. On the Cross, Jesus becomes sin, & becomes accursed. (See Deuteronomy 21:23.) He fulfils the Law, because His Death satisfies it - so those who are His, cannot be hurt by it, as it has no claim on them. It brought death, but He cancels it out, & brings Life in its stead It cannot hurt anyone who does not deliberately step outside Christ. So there is no reason to be afraid.

 

[lawtonfogle]

That response does not help at all. Not everyone can just push a button and immediately accept and understand everything in the bible, which is why they ask questions.

No one is able to accept some parts of the Bible, at least no one I have met. Instead, they ignore those portions of the Bible, but worse than that, they ignore the larger truths revealed by those portions, and turn around and hurt others, sometimes deliberately but more often in their own ignorance of the truths. But it takes a lot to wake someone to this knowledge, even those who begin to see the picture can only look at the details of some small portion, they still fail to recognize the larger whole.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Yeah, that's what I have difficulty with.

How can I out my trust and faith in God, when any minute He culd decide I am not worthy

## Of course you aren't - nobody possibly could be, nor ever will be This is why grace is so absolutely central - for God's Grace considers not what we are, but Who God is. It is not built on what we deserve, but on the absolutely unconditional Love of God.

God is not capricious, or changeable - human beings are; but we have to purge our ideas about God of all the impurities that come from thinking about the Merciful God as though He were man, but on an infinite scale. To know what God is like, look to Jesus.

and destroy me. Or destroy someone who is kind, loving, caring and gentle - but just isn't a Christian.

## If someone lives as a Christian should, he is one, whether he knows of God or not. If a Christian does the works of the devil, he will be rewarded according to his anti-Christian works. See further: C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle.

The Gospels upset a lot of conventional ideas - they show Jesus condemning the Law-abiding Pharisees & scribes, but spending time with revolting characters like tax-collectors, making a Samaritan schismatic & not a priest or Levite the example of neighbourly behaviour, & praising the faith of a centurion. There is every reason to believe that such labels as "Christian" & "non-Christian" are equal meaningless apart from deeds.

Who but God makes anyone "kind, loving, caring and gentle" ? These things are impossible w/out God.

 

[Hairy Tic]

The truth is that He is the potter and we are His creation. Even if we wouldn't have sinned, still, He literally owns us. Who could say that He does something wrong? Doesn't He define what is wrong and what is good anyway?

## But look where the logic of this leads

There has to be some similarity between what we think of righteous, & what the Bible says is righteous: the similarity may be that between a child's attempt at a perfect circle, & a perfect circle; but however inadequate the child's circle, it won't be entirely unlike the perfect circle. If it is, then the same words could be used for things between which there was no likeness at all. If you say "cheese", & someone translates it as "elephant", what you have is not communication, but miscommunication; & miscommunication that is not recognised at that.

So with God's Righteousness & our understanding of it.

Most of the Book of Job is taken up w/ criticism of God. We live in a very unjust world, in which the Churches have done much wrong, & this can raise very painful questions about God, if ppl take seriously what is said about Him in the Bible.

And aren't we His? If I would have created something, that something is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it. If I would have written a book, I could just as well destroy it, whether it is well written or with big errors; it is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it.

## To paraphrase C. S. Lewis:

"This teddy bear is mine" can mean:

• 1. "This teddy bear belongs to me, & I will pull it to pieces if that is what I want to do to it"

or it can mean:

• 2. "This teddy bear belongs to me, so I will love it very much & take very good care of it & not let any harm come to it"

God does own us, but not in that first way. His ownership is expressed as self-sacrificing Love. Q.E.D. We are, in a sense, God's teddy bears. Children give life to their soft toys by spending time w/ them, playing w/ them, & most of all, by loving them enough to give them individuality - & that is a small scale version of what God does for us.

So even if we wouldn't have sinned, He owns us, thus He can do whatever He wishes. But of course, He is even more justified by the fact that we sinned. We are a machine that simply doesn't do what it is supposed to do. Shouldn't we actually be amazed that He was so patient with His imperfect working machines? Would you be so kind to a creation of yours that literally disobeys every commandment of yours?

## I get very miffed when this machine doesn't work, but I don't (if I think about it) hold it morally accountable. God holds us morally accountable - which is not fair, if we are machines; for machines are not greater than the sum of their parts; they are not alive. We are, & that makes all the difference imaginable. And we are made in God's image - but cannot transmit this to pieces of machinery. We have liberty - machines do not. And no machine has the capacity for communion w/ God - but man has no meaning or point w/o that communion. That is why sin is disastrous - it is a complete denial of the very purpose for which each of us has been created.

You put time and effort to create something good, like you wanted it, you gave it everything it needs and more, and yet it directly disobeys you, and even insults you. Would you be so patient?

God is perfect - we are not. So the compsarison fails.

So, in both cases, He is still justified for we are His, as the Psalms say: "The Earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness. The world and those who dwell therein." (Psalms 21:1). Any more questions?

## One: where is Christ in all this ?

 

[addo]

## To paraphrase C. S. Lewis:

"This teddy bear is mine" can mean:

• 1. "This teddy bear belongs to me, & I will pull it to pieces if that is what I want to do to it"

or it can mean:

• 2. "This teddy bear belongs to me, so I will love it very much & take very good care of it & not let any harm come to it"

God does own us, but not in that first way. His ownership is expressed as self-sacrificing Love. Q.E.D. We are, in a sense, God's teddy bears. Children give life to their soft toys by spending time w/ them, playing w/ them, & most of all, by loving them enough to give them individuality - & that is a small scale version of what God does for us.

But even if He'd own us in the 'second way', would you say that He does something wrong if He just wants to eliminate us and start all over again, or not start at all, hypothetically speaking?

## I get very miffed when this machine doesn't work, but I don't (if I think about it) hold it morally accountable. God holds us morally accountable - which is not fair, if we are machines; for machines are not greater than the sum of their parts; they are not alive. We are, & that makes all the difference imaginable. And we are made in God's image - but cannot transmit this to pieces of machinery. We have liberty - machines do not. And no machine has the capacity for communion w/ God - but man has no meaning or point w/o that communion. That is why sin is disastrous - it is a complete denial of the very purpose for which each of us has been created.

I didn't expect you to go that far. You have to know when the allegory stops. There is nothing I can compare it, God's creation (us), with something we created, so this is why I put a machine. We never created anything similar to what God made, so I couldn't make a comparison. But if it helps you, let's just say we are living machines.

## One: where is Christ in all this ?

Who do you think the "LORD" is in that verse?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Religious Girl. The Old Testament is a History of the Israelites and their Prophets. They were surrounded by Heathen-tribes and their cruel gods. Also, God was establishing His Kingdom. In time Jesus came and showed us God as He really is: a loving Heavenly Father who wants us back again. Jesus told us in Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40, " to love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds, is the first and great Commandment. The second is: love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants our love for Himself and for each other. And the Bible points out that the Love God wants from us, is selfless and no conditions asked. I say this humbly and with love, Religious Girl. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[chingchang]

Yeah, that's what I have difficulty with.

How can I out my trust and faith in God, when any minute He culd decide I am not worthy and destroy me. Or destroy someone who is kind, loving, caring and gentle - but just isn't a Christian.

I could plant a bunch of stuff in my garden and decide that one of my tomato plants just isn't worth keeping because it isn't producing fruit and simply pull it out and throw it away. God can do the same with us if he wants...and who are we to say he can't? Concerning your faith...Paul said to work it out with fear and trembling. What can you do about it? Seriously. Worrying about it won't add a day to your life. We're given an example in the NT of folks that were doing works in God's name and were thrown out and Yeshua says "begone from me I never knew you".

I'm relying totally and completely on his mercy as offered in the sacrifice of his Son...because at the end of my life I will not have done anything worth the reward he is offering.

Hugs,
CC

 

[Dionysiou]

yeh mang, no point cherry coating it. The situation is, your a mere mortal and God is running the show. You just gotta do what he says or else..... theres no real other options then to do what God wants otherwise you pay for it with your life! when i put it like that it sounds like a pain, lol thats coz it is

 

[.Iona.]

yeh mang, no point cherry coating it. The situation is, your a mere mortal and God is running the show. You just gotta do what he says or else..... theres no real other options then to do what God wants otherwise you pay for it with your life! when i put it like that it sounds like a pain, lol thats coz it is

I can't be worshipping someone out of fear. If you say to a child/ animal or even adult - do this or I will hurt you/ kill you if would be very wrong and you would be hated for it. Yet, God can say the same thing - do this or I will send you to Hell.

I struggle to see God's love when He says if you don't do every single thing I say, I will kill you. I can't see myself continuing to worship Him, when He can and will just destroy who He wants and disguises it by saying He loves us all so much. If He did, He shouldn't go around killing people..

 

[addo]

I can't be worshipping someone out of fear. If you say to a child/ animal or even adult - do this or I will hurt you/ kill you if would be very wrong and you would be hated for it. Yet, God can say the same thing - do this or I will send you to Hell.

I struggle to see God's love when He says if you don't do every single thing I say, I will kill you. I can't see myself continuing to worship Him, when He can and will just destroy who He wants and disguises it by saying He loves us all so much. If He did, He shouldn't go around killing people..

People end up killing themselves actually. Are you familiar with "cause and effect"? There are consequences to the things we do; they can be bad or good.

If someone would say to you: don't jump off the building because you'll die if you will, can you say the law of gravity is guilty for that person dying or that his friend is guilty for warning him?

God made us to work in a certain way. If live that certain way, we keep living. If we work truly the opposite as we should, problems will appear and we will soon stop working (we'll die).

He has already given you enough reasons to worship Him. The decision rests on you. He has already shown His love. Can you say He could have improved His 'demonstration' of His love? If so, give an example.

 

[.Iona.]

People end up killing themselves actually. Are you familiar with "cause and effect"? There are consequences to the things we do; they can be bad or good.

There are consequences to our actions, yes. But, what about the child who dies of leukaemia, or is kidnapped? What did they do to cause that?

If someone would say to you: don't jump off the building because you'll die if you will, can you say the law of gravity is guilty for that person dying or that his friend is guilty for warning him?

That's different. God is giving us laws for who to love and how to love them, not preventing us from jumping to our deaths.

He has already given you enough reasons to worship Him. The decision rests on you. He has already shown His love. Can you say He could have improved His 'demonstration' of His love? If so, give an example.

His love was sending Jesus?
If He loves us, why kill us?

 

[addo]

There are consequences to our actions, yes. But, what about the child who dies of leukaemia, or is kidnapped? What did they do to cause that?

What do you think leukemia exists?

For what reason or why is the child kidnapped?

(By the way, a short parenthesis here: a sinner is not a sinner because he sins but he sins because he is a sinner; an apple tree isn't an apple tree because it brings forth apples but it brings forth apples because it is an apple tree. Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?)

That's different. God is giving us laws for who to love and how to love them, not preventing us from jumping to our deaths.

That was something called "allegory". I'll take your example. There is the commandment to love. We don't love. The world doesn't love according to God's plan. And as I said, there are consequences for not loving. Just look at the world. The case above: why was the kid kidnapped? Because someone showed a lack of love.

His love was sending Jesus?
If He loves us, why kill us?

There is another thing He loves too: "For I, the LORD, love justice" (Isaiah 61:8). It is also written: "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil" (Psalms 5:4).

You are making the common mistake atheists, or nonbelievers in general make which is that you maximize one of God's attributes and you forget the other ones. Yes, He is love but He also loves justice. He doesn't love evil, and this is what we are: evil.

But yet He loves us, and in His wisdom, He found a middle ground between His love for justice and His love for us: He sent Jesus so that whosoever from the accursed believed Him will not die but live. Now those that don't believe will be punished, for He loves justice as well. And actually Him not punishing would be a pure demonstration of hate. What kind of a loving God would permit His children to do the unjust and forbidden and make a blind eye to it? Wouldn't Him let the murderer escape, rapist go unpunished and wicked flee from justice actually be the worst thing He could do? But yet there is a judgment, and there they will all be punished, and yes, a lot will be killed on that day (His coming).

You can't just simply take one of His attributes and make Him that attribute. He loves us but He also loves justice and hate sin.

 

[.Iona.]

That was something called "allegory".

I know what it was.

He doesn't love evil, and this is what we are: evil.

A God who believes I am evil, isn't really a God that I want to get to know.

Wouldn't Him let the murderer escape, rapist go unpunished and wicked flee from justice actually be the worst thing He could do? But yet there is a judgment, and there they will all be punished, and yes, a lot will be killed on that day (His coming).

You cannot put a liar, adulterer, gay person, unmarried mother, into the same category as murderers and rapists. Yes, the latter should be punished, but very, very differently to the former.

You can't just simply take one of His attributes and make Him that attribute. He loves us but He also loves justice and hate sin.

I cannot see how if He loves us, He would kill. If a mother kills her child, because they are ill or might turn out bad, or is saving them from themselves, and she believes it's the right decision - is that okay?

There would have been many better ways for God to show His love for us. I'm not saying He doesn't, I believe He does, but using death as a threat isn't loving at all in my opinion. You could have a priest - spending all of his life dedicated to God and a lovely, kind person, who turns away from God at the end of his life, and is then considered evil by God and sentenced to eternal death.

I always ignored it before, but I've realised that my church would use it as a threat - saying you have to do this or that, because otherwise you will be cast into Hell. I really don't think I can stay a Christian.

 

[addo]

A God who believes I am evil, isn't really a God that I want to get to know.

Yes you are a sinner, children of wrath. But the same God who knows you trough Jesus gave us the means to get born again, not as a sinner, but as a son of God; not with a sinful nature but a righteous one.

Is it wrong that He wants to change you from being 'evil' to being righteous? Because this is His intent, and His motivation is love. Being sinners will bring His wrath upon us, because He hates sin. But He loves us and wants to change us and this is why He sent Christ to save us from the wrath to come. This is a demonstration of His love. He knows you are bad. Being bad will get you punished with death. But He loves you and sent His Son so that you trough Him may change from bad to good so you may be saved from the destruction which is to come and which will fall upon all the workers of iniquity, of which we were before being born again.

So tell me: why would you not wanna know a God who thinks you are bad, yes, but that also provided the means for you to stop being a worker of iniquity and to become good, righteous, born of Him?

You cannot put a liar, adulterer, gay person, unmarried mother, into the same category as murderers and rapists. Yes, the latter should be punished, but very, very differently to the former.

Why? I label all of the as sinners.

And who are you to decide what is a just punishment and what is not?

I cannot see how if He loves us, He would kill.

Kill who? Kill what? Why is killing bad?

If a mother kills her child, because they are ill or might turn out bad, or is saving them from themselves, and she believes it's the right decision - is that okay?

No, it is not.

First of all: you said it. The child is ill, therefore there is a possibility for a cure, or he might turn out bad. Now tell me: does God kill all of us now? No. Why? Because we are 'ill' with sin, but there is the possibility of a cure, and that is Christ. And also, God doesn't kill us because we might turn out bad but because we are bad.

In the judgment there will only be lost causes.

Also, the mother doesn't have the right to kill, but God does, because He is the One who gave life and He is the one with right to take it back.

So tell me: why doesn't God have the right to kill (us)?

There would have been many better ways for God to show His love for us.

So what He did is not enough to you?

I'm not saying He doesn't, I believe He does, but using death as a threat isn't loving at all in my opinion.

So what should He do? Hide the truth? Isn't it true that sin leads to death? Isn't it also true that the whole world abides in sin? Then, as a logical conclusion, isn't it true that if the world persists in sin it will finally die?

Therefore if God says that if you do not believe you will die, is He saying this as a threat or out of love, because He doesn't want us to die? The truth is that He is telling it out of love. He loves us. He doesn't want us to die. He provided the means to life. To obtain eternal life you only have to believe. If you don't believe, if you don't choose life, isn't it logical that you will choose death? What did the Lord say? "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil." (Deuteronomy 30:15) And what does He want us to choose? "Choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19) Does He wish for us to die? "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?" (Ezequiel 18:23)

Notice what God said. He wants the wicked to return from their ways and live! Why? Because their ways, which are sinful, lead to death; but yet He wants them to live.

So anyway, not to make this even longer, God warns us about death, because if we follow our own ways we will end up dead. But He wants us to return from our ways and live; this is why He warns us of the danger of our own paths. He also sent His Son so that we may choose The Way, and not another one that will also lead to death.

Explain please how is Him warning us about the dangers of our 'ways' being hateful of Him? Why is Him warning us that we will die if we persist in our works wrong and a demonstration of hate (if it isn't one of love, it is one of hate, isn't it?)?

You could have a priest - spending all of his life dedicated to God and a lovely, kind person, who turns away from God at the end of his life, and is then considered evil by God and sentenced to eternal death.

Why do you think that person would turn away from God?

I always ignored it before, but I've realised that my church would use it as a threat - saying you have to do this or that, because otherwise you will be cast into Hell. I really don't think I can stay a Christian.

And why would this 'threat' be bad? Isn't it true that not all ways lead to life? Isn't it also true that God wants us to abandon those ways and live? Isn't it logical for God to warn us about the ways that lead to death and point to the One that leads to life?

Why does this idea disturb you? Please give your opinion.

 

[addo]

By the way, how old are you?

 

[.Iona.]

Yes you are a sinner, children of wrath.

You cannot be born a sinner, you are born a little innocent baby who knows nothing and has done nothing. Saying you are a sinner is another way of scaring people isn't it?

Is it wrong that He wants to change you from being 'evil' to being righteous? Because this is His intent, and His motivation is love.

He made us who we are right? So He made us evil?

So tell me: why would you not wanna know a God who thinks you are bad, yes, but that also provided the means for you to stop being a worker of iniquity and to become good, righteous, born of Him?

I don't want to be around anyone who thinks I am bad.

Why? I label all of the as sinners.

And who are you to decide what is a just punishment and what is not?

That's another reason I think I'll ahve to give up on Christianity.

Kill who? Kill what? Why is killing bad?

So tell me: why doesn't God have the right to kill (us)?

Are you serious? Killing is never good. There is no justification for killing someone. If God created us, He knew how we would turn out - so He can't then kill people off - because He knew already what they would be like.

So what He did is not enough to you?

He killed His own son to show his love. Not a great example.

So what should He do? Hide the truth? Isn't it true that sin leads to death? Isn't it also true that the whole world abides in sin? Then, as a logical conclusion, isn't it true that if the world persists in sin it will finally die?

He could not kill people. There are ways of sharing the message and their are ways of showing your love.

Therefore if God says that if you do not believe you will die, is He saying this as a threat or out of love, because He doesn't want us to die? The truth is that He is telling it out of love. He loves us. He doesn't want us to die.

So why is He killing us if he really doesn't want it? If He didn't want to kill, then He wouldn't.

Explain please how is Him warning us about the dangers of our 'ways' being hateful of Him? Why is Him warning us that we will die if we persist in our works wrong and a demonstration of hate (if it isn't one of love, it is one of hate, isn't it?)?

I created my child. If I then tell him, 'do this or I will kill you' - that isn't loving. Warning someone to look before crossing a road, is loving, but creating someone and then saying if you don't do all that I say I'll throw you in a fiery hell for all for eternity - isn't.

Why do you think that person would turn away from God?

People do.

And why would this 'threat' be bad? Isn't it true that not all ways lead to life? Isn't it also true that God wants us to abandon those ways and live? Isn't it logical for God to warn us about the ways that lead to death and point to the One that leads to life?

Why does this idea disturb you? Please give your opinion.

A threat is always bad. Like I said, you can advise people to change your ways without threatening them. That means that they will 'love' you out fear and not out of respect. If God is all mighty and all powerfll, and even all loving - then he should be able to find a way for people to love him as he is and not scare people into loving him.

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I should also add that I am not trying to prove God wrong, or say he doesn't exist - but these are the reasons that I have almost completely left Christianity, and am looking for advice.

Just in case someone reads this and thinks I am just being horrible!