The ever-virginity of Mary

[Thekla]

right. I get that too. again, I'm just stuck on the why does being a virgin matter if she's married (or betrothed or whatever). And are all your saints that way? Maybe that would make it more clear to me (if they were).

No, though many are 'ever virgin' (John the Baptist, Elias, etc. etc. and some virgin Saints who were married). Even in marriage, we are encouraged to periods of continence by agreement (mentioned by Paul).

As for the married, there is no Biblical evidence that she married. So that becomes an interest ...

 

[IreneAdler]

Eh, like I said before, that whole contract thing makes me doubt that seriously based on Jewish culture, but that's my "judaizing self" talking (sorry, I'm bitter about something else right now - I'll get over it soon).

 

[IreneAdler]

Again, I'm honestly not trying to be difficult. You gotta get someone not raised in this idea would find it not so easy to grasp as it seems kinda complicated.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Didn't say it wasn't reasonable, just that sometimes it's hard if not impossible to say no.

And I'm just not seeing it either way in any of the scriptures quoted. they're still quite vanilla on the subject to me. (neither/nor either/or)

That's where tradition handed down by the Early Church Fathers comes in. Since this tradition does not conflict with Scripture, then we take it on faith as the ECF did. Again, it is very plausible that the ECFs were the recipients of "first hand knowledge" that had been handed down to them from the time of Mary. Some call it "pious opinion", I call it faith.

Does ones salvation pivot on this point of faith? As a Confessional Lutheran who holds Sola Scriptura; I don't think so. Scripture does not tell us that. I know that some Christian Communions believe such; and that is their privilege to hold that belief.

 

[IreneAdler]

Oh, see, I'm even iffy on Talmud, much less tradition. That's hard for me to swallow. It just makes me uncomfortable.

I am not even thinking its a salvation point, just confusing. I want to understand why it matters (and am failing miserably though my dear fellow posters are trying hard to get it to me)

 

[Thekla]

Again, I'm honestly not trying to be difficult. You gotta get someone not raised in this idea would find it not so easy to grasp as it seems kinda complicated.

That's ok

The EO view of things can also be a little ... unfamiliar.
It seems actually very simple to me, which makes it hard to explain -- rendering it too complicated to read, I fear

 

[IreneAdler]

I get that. It's like me trying to explain medical things... I find some concepts really simple and so when I try to explain them I forget what I find simple can be a major concept for someone else.

 

[MrPolo]

no, but as I see no point to proving whether or not it's true then I fail to see how it even is applicable to faith. kwim? I'm not being argumentative, I'm honestly trying to understand why it matters. Um... but you guys tend to talk about it in catholic/orthodox-ese and it's not very clear. Hence the "I either don't understand or see what you're saying"

You could say that about a lot of parts of divine revelation. You could say you don't see how it's applicable that Ahira was the son of Enan, but it's still part of divine revelation. You see how deep the others here view the Perpetual Virginity of Mary here. That could serve as a red flag to you that something is there.

Frankly, Mary is ever-virgin, we see the nuptual nature of the Spirit's relation to her, a creature. Joseph would not betray that special union. Mary also is the figure of the Church, that which delivers Christ to the world. In Mary, we see our own role. We see why the Church is presented without blemish of which virginity is a great sign. So if you wish to brush it off, you may, but it seems rather pointless of you to try to convince others to do the same.

 

[IreneAdler]

actually I started a thread in the catholic area that was way more... laymans terms for me to get what you guys were saying so now I think I understand. Thank you everyone for trying for me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Irene -

I have come to the conclusion that there seems to be some level of sinfulness attached to marital intimacy in the minds of Catholics and perhaps Orthodox as well. If there was not, I really doubt that any of them would care one way or the other whether or not Mary and Joseph shared marital intimacy.

Like you, I have found it difficult to comprehend why Mary's personal life with Joseph should become a matter of dogma for Catholics so that if one does not agree with their view or even if one honestly wonders about their view, they have lost all hope of salvation.