The Eucharist: True differences between Catholics and Orthodox???

[All4Christ]

Even when St. Ambrose speaks of a change in nature and St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of a change in elements?

Absolutely. Certainly it has a change of nature and change of elements.

 

[Erose]

Substance has multiple meanings. It allows for multiple understandings.

Most words have multiple meanings. It is the duty of the one hoping to understand what is being proclaimed to understand what the words mean in the context in which they are used. That is just the nature of learning.

 

[Erose]

Having an additional nature does not negate the first nature. Two natures of Christ for example.

Forgive me...

So consubstantiation then?

 

[Erose]

Absolutely. Certainly it has a change of nature and change of elements.

But it is not a change in substance?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So consubstantiation then?

Can something not take on a spiritual nature?
We worship in spirit and in truth.
If the Holy Spirit changes you spiritually would I be able to tell by looking at your appearance?

Forgive me...

 

[Erose]

Very well.

We do receive the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ (the reason for leavened bread, I understand). Obviously, since Christ is not dead, we receive the living Christ, but it is clarified in some places.

Where does it explain what soul and divinity means, can I ask? It seems to me as an outsider that if that isn't explained, it could mean all kinds of things. If it only means living, I don't quite understand why it isn't just "the living Christ" as we would say.

I don't mean this as criticism, just asking. It feels like nit-picking and I might not go into all of this myself, but the question was "what's the difference" so I'd have to understand.

Does not Jesus have a soul? Is He not divine?

 

[Erose]

Can something not take on a spiritual nature?
We worship in spirit and in truth.
If the Holy Spirit changes you spiritually would I be able to tell by looking at your appearance?

Forgive me...

Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.

Nope, he didn't come up with that... it's Orthodox. Nuggets of truth can be found everywhere in the Christian world. A broken clock is correct twice a day.

Forgive me...

 

[~Anastasia~]

So consubstantiation then?

See you are still trying to fit us into someone's western box.


It changes. Truly. Period.

Do you not see this itself is a difference between us?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Does not Jesus have a soul? Is He not divine?

Yes of course. But you are reasoning your way to a conclusion.

Did Jesus say, "Take eat, this is my body, which also contains my soul and divinity"?

Which of the Fathers said it?


I am not trying to offend, but we take what we have received, guard it faithfully, and pass it down, without change. That is a very core value for us.


I don't want to get into all of what people can assume by "soul and divinity". Just take a look around Protestantism, how they take this verse or that, and all the many different ideas they pull out of it? What might that kind of thinking do with "soul and divinity"? What has Catholicism done with it? I don't know - I'm asking you? Does it really just mean "Christ is alive"? It seems to say more.

Please forgive me if I offend. Just trying to answer your question, though I think you are not happy with the answers. I am sorry for that, but must answer as truthfully as I can, if I answer at all.

Peace to you.

 

[All4Christ]

Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.

I do not consider our view to follow Calvin's view. It is the Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit...it isn't just Jesus' spiritual presence in the bread and wine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

 

[All4Christ]

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Amen. One of my favorite prayers as well

 

[~Anastasia~]

Nope, he didn't come up with that... it's Orthodox. Nuggets of truth can be found everywhere in the Christian world. A broken clock is correct twice a day.

Forgive me...

I don't actually know the complete Calvinism doctrine but ...


I do know very well that we affirm with joy that there are elements of truth throughout Christianity.

But I think Erose might misunderstand that we fully affirm Calvinism wrt the Eucharist to be the Orthodox belief. As I said, I'm not sure exactly what Calvinism teaches ... but I'm guessing this is not actually the case.

Trying to prevent confusion here. Please forgive me as well.

 

[Erose]

Nope, he didn't come up with that... it's Orthodox. Nuggets of truth can be found everywhere in the Christian world. A broken clock is correct twice a day.

Forgive me...

So Christ is only spiritually present in the Eucharist? Where then is His Flesh and Blood?

 

[Erose]

See you are still trying to fit us into someone's western box.


It changes. Truly. Period.

Do you not see this itself is a difference between us?

No, not really. The question I have is this: What does the bread and wine change into?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No, not really. The question I have is this: What does the bread and wine change into?

This has gotten stupid and rather boring.

Forgive me...

 

[Erose]

Yes of course. But you are reasoning your way to a conclusion.

Did Jesus say, "Take eat, this is my body, which also contains my soul and divinity"?

Which of the Fathers said it?

St Ambrose On the Mysteries: 58. Wherefore, too, the Church, beholding so great grace, exhorts her sons and her friends to come together to the sacraments, saying: Eat, my friends, and drink and be inebriated, my brother. What we eat and what we drink the Holy Spirit has elsewhere made plain by the prophet, saying, Taste and see that the Lord is good, blessed is the man that hopes in Him. In that sacrament is Christ, because it is the Body of Christ, it is therefore not bodily food but spiritual. Whence the Apostle says of its type: Our fathers ate spiritual food and drank spiritual drink, for the Body of God is a spiritual body; the Body of Christ is the Body of the Divine Spirit, for the Spirit is Christ, as we read: The Spirit before our face is Christ the Lord. And in the Epistle of Peter we read: Christ died for us. Lastly, that food strengthens our heart, and that drink makes glad the heart of man, as the prophet has recorded.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem Cat Lect 22: 3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to you His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that you by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, may be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, we become partakers of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 .

I am not trying to offend, but we take what we have received, guard it faithfully, and pass it down, without change. That is a very core value for us.

Same here.

I don't want to get into all of what people can assume by "soul and divinity". Just take a look around Protestantism, how they take this verse or that, and all the many different ideas they pull out of it? What might that kind of thinking do with "soul and divinity"? What has Catholicism done with it? I don't know - I'm asking you? Does it really just mean "Christ is alive"? It seems to say more.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here, because like I wrote somewhere else, nearly every word has more than one meaning depending on how it is used and by whom. Definitions are extremely important, and that is why these things are taught.

Jesus Christ has a human soul (because He is a man) and a divine spirit (because He is God). Since Christ is alive, then we receive Him fully in the Eucharist. Him, not dead flesh and blood.

 

[Erose]

This has gotten stupid and rather boring.

Forgive me...

I apologize that I made you feel this way. I am really trying to understand what you believe, and quite honestly I'm getting way too many answers to that question.

 

[Erose]

Here is another very good quote from St. Cyril of Jerusalem Cat Lect 22: 9. Having learned these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengthens man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil , strengthen your heart, by partaking thereof as spiritual, and make the face of your soul to shine. And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, may you reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:— To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

I.e. the definition of transubstantiation in its entirety.