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The Eucharist: Symbolic, Real Presence, Transubstantiation

Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zazal
[FONT=&quot]...ostensibly this is done for the sake of those that might take communion in an unworthy fashion, but in reality it again adds an element that was never there in the first place[/FONT]


Greetings!

I realize this post already has been responded to, but I just had a few questions. I take issue with this part of what you said. Biblicaly speaking how can we say what the elements on early worship were? The most we get is that the believers came together and broke bread, which leads into what you said about

Hello Alphonsus,,,,I see a difference between yearly Passover and using the unleavened bread and the wine to remember the ordinance of the L-rd...to the whole idea of fellowship meals or love feasts when the brethren would break bread regularly from house to house.


Originally Posted by Zazal
[FONT=&quot]...if you love the L-rd and recognise the Body you participate, making sure you have no unconfessed sin...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]This was true however during the writing of the New Testament the Apostles were still alive, and if you followed their teaching you were numbered among the believers. However after they died you began to see divisions occurring within the Church, and some of these divisions (ie gnosticism, arianism, etc.) clearly perverted the nature of the Faith, and were indeed sinful. Other schisms occurred later (RC/E. Orthodox, RC/Protestant, Protestant/Protestant) to the point where the understanding of the body of the Lord and the understanding of confessing your sins means different things to different elements, then yes I would say it would be good to protect individuals from eating and drinking judgment upon themselves. Most of the churches that have such rules about receiving Communion do so because within their faith tradition, because it is the Body and Blood of Christ, and Paul was quite serious about improperly receiving. Assume for a second you had discerned incorrectly in discerning, and you actually were receiving the physical Body and Blood, even though you had not properly discerned it? 1 Cor 11:29 is something those of us who believe in the Real Presence take quite seriously. It is not to exclude others, although that is the sad side effect of division within the Church, however the safety of the souls of our brethren who don't agree with us is more important than others feeling excluded. We don't wish to see further division within the Church, but this is a sad reminder of the divisions we have. [/FONT]

Yes but the whole emphasis has been diverted by the RC doctrine because they use John 6 to try and insist that the bread and the wine become the body and blood of Messiah, rather than recognizing the whole thrust of what Jesus was initiating did not revolve around mysticism and beautiful ceremonial exactitude....but in knowing who we were in Him, and what He had done and achieved for us.

May the L-rd bless and encourage you my friend. Zazal[/FONT]
 
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Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zazal
The problem as I see it with presenting transubstantiation is...

What I see in this new, unique RCC dogma is that it is entirely moot and biblically baseless.

As pure human speculation - it's probably okay (which is probably all the medieval inventors of it intended). But then why is it binding, divisive DOGMA? .

Yep...thats what I see as well CJ...but if you are part of the RC set-up, you are duty bound to accept this as dogma because as faras I can tell, once you start to question things, and be persuaded by Scripture and the Holy Ghost, your card is marked....and no one wants to be regarded as divisive or vaguely heretical, so there is a real fear element involved, and this has been evident with friends I know who have left the RCC.
 
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MrPolo

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evident with friends I know who have left the RCC.

If you please, invite your friends to contact me or visit here on the forums. Based on the amount of misconceptions about Catholicism extant, it would serve well to make sure your friends were rejecting something actually taught versus one of the many myths about Catholicism advanced by Her enemies and the ignorant.
 
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Standing Up

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Originally Posted by Zazal
The problem as I see it with presenting transubstantiation is...


Yep...thats what I see as well CJ...but if you are part of the RC set-up, you are duty bound to accept this as dogma because as faras I can tell, once you start to question things, and be persuaded by Scripture and the Holy Ghost, your card is marked....and no one wants to be regarded as divisive or vaguely heretical, so there is a real fear element involved, and this has been evident with friends I know who have left the RCC.

Your friends sound well informed and able to hear.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Originally Posted by Zazal
The problem as I see it with presenting transubstantiation is...
Yep...thats what I see as well CJ...but if you are part of the RC set-up, you are duty bound to accept this as dogma because as faras I can tell, once you start to question things, and be persuaded by Scripture and the Holy Ghost, your card is marked....and no one wants to be regarded as divisive or vaguely heretical, so there is a real fear element involved, and this has been evident with friends I know who have left the RCC.


Yup....


And yes, the RCC is founded on the insistence of itself that itself alone has the POWER (it likes to call this "authority") to demand a "pass" on truth and instead "quiet, docilic submission" to self alone as unto God (see the Catechism of itself # 87 for starters). In Catholicism, there is submission - not accountability; the issue is not "is this true?" the issue is "am I being docilicly submissive to the power of my denomination?"


Most of my Catholic friends have not "left" the RCC in the sense that they are now attending somewhere else. Most of them are either not worshipping ANYWHERE (except Christmas and Easter perhaps) OR are still attending the RCC under the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy - they agree with Catholicism less than I do (typically FAR less) but they keep their mouth shut (at church, anyway). Sometimes these are called "Cafeteria Catholics" or "Protestants hiding in the church" - and from my experience, they make up 85-95% of those in the RCC. There ARE true Catholics - who just quietly, docilicly SUBMIT to the power of the RCC and embrace whatever they are told, irrespective of whether it's good or right or true- but they are not as common as some fundamentalists on the net might make you think.... MY experience is: there are VERY few Catholics, even in the RCC. For ME (just speaking for ME) it was a question of integrity. I could not imply simply that was not true. If I was not Catholic, I should not label myself as such or attend the RCC. It was a matter of honestly, integrity, character for me. As difficult as it was, it proved to be one of the best decisions I've ever made and I'm glad I did.


To the issue here: Western, medieval, Catholic Scholasticism did what it did best - with a firm embrace of secular, pagan philosophy and pre-science, it SPECULATED about some matters. In this case, that specific word "change" in the Eucharistic texts (it seems not noticing the word never appears - not once). As PURE SPECULATION - I don't have any major issues with it (other than it sure creates some major textual problems, embraces the same "split interpretation" that Zwingli later would embrace, and severely undermines the doctrine of Real Presence) but the RCC didn't keep it as the pure theory I suspect it was invented to be: it - and it itself alone - uniquely made it DOGMA in 1551. That's my "issue". But yes, for Catholics - it's all absolutely moot. The RCC (alone) NOW teaches it - and they must docilicly, quietly SUBMIT. And some do.






.
 
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Zeek

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If you please, invite your friends to contact me or visit here on the forums. Based on the amount of misconceptions about Catholicism extant, it would serve well to make sure your friends were rejecting something actually taught versus one of the many myths about Catholicism advanced by Her enemies and the ignorant.

Lol ....wild horses couldn't drag them back....virtually every testimony I have heard is that when they came out from the grip of Roman Catholicism, it was like a weight being lifted from their lives, a straight-jacket being taken off....and most of all they could not believe they had succumbed to many of the teachings without really understanding the plain truth that was always there in Scripture.

In the sort of set-up I belong to which is basically Evangelical...there was a period in which some leaders tried to dominate the people under them, and control them rather than serve...it became known as 'Heavy Shepherding'...(many of these leaders later repented, and got back with the program)....It seems similar in many ways to what goes on in much of Roman Catholicism, and is probably part of the reason there has been so much cruelty and abuse coming to light in recent years, which in all likelihood is only a small fraction of what has been going on, and probably continues in some places.

I can understand why people are so against Roman Catholicism, but I suspect it is strengthened by those that have left her ranks, and can paint a truer picture of what really goes on.... I was watching a Catholic Channel the other day (sometimes there is good teaching)...but I was dismayed when I heard the outright exhortation to pray to and worship Mary...it made all the objections I have heard on these boards seem like complete fantasy..."We don't pray to her, we don't worship her etc etc"...the true evidence is everywhere, and many of those that have left willingly admit to it.

I guess the forms of Catholicism must vary from place to place...some are probably far more Roman Catholic orientated, while others really have more of an all embracing Christian type of attitude, and do not get too heavily into Marian doctrines etc. As CJ pointed out, one probably finds some of the more fanatical RC's on Forums, and they are not really representative of Catholics as a whole....I stuck my head around the door of OBOB for a couple of weeks, but that was more than enough to show me what it must be like if you don't tow the Roman Catholic line...I couldn't get out quick enough in the end....patience, mercy love were almost alien concepts to some of my brethren.

Personally I think there are more myths within Roman Catholic doctrine than are supposed about Roman Catholic practices, and I would think being an enemy of Roman Catholicism doesn't necessarily mean you are in any way and enemy of Christianity....it simply means you strongly disagree with some of the things they teach., and Transubstantiation is one of the things I happen to think is wrong....but if I drew concentric circles, it would occupy a place on an outer ring, whereas Marian dogma/doctrine would be closest to the center.
 
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Zeek

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Yup....


MY experience is: there are VERY few Catholics, even in the RCC. For ME (just speaking for ME) it was a question of integrity. I could not imply simply that was not true. If I was not Catholic, I should not label myself as such or attend the RCC. It was a matter of honestly, integrity, character for me. As difficult as it was, it proved to be one of the best decisions I've ever made and I'm glad I did.

Yes I have heard many people suffered agonies coming to a decision on leaving the RCC...mostly because of friends and fellowship and a sense of unity and belonging....somehow you feel a sort of traitor, and in some places that is exactly how you are made to feel.
 
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MrPolo

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without really understanding the plain truth that was always there in Scripture.

Sounds just like the scores of converts into the Catholic Church. Wild horses or not, feel free to send them on over so we may discern the scope of their understanding and perhaps even enlighten blind folks like myself that can't see the "plain truth."
 
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MrPolo

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I was dismayed when I heard the outright exhortation to pray to and worship Mary
So you say on a "Catholic Channel" there was an "exhortation to...worship Mary." On what show can I find this exhortation? You've made quite a scandalous accusation. It's quite amazing that I'm in a Catholic master's degree program, studied the faith in depth for quite a number of years, and although my early catechesis was poor, I didn't once encounter a single exhortation to "worship Mary" nor do I know of a single Catholic who would say so either. Not one. Nor in the hundreds or thousands of Catholic shows on TV and radio I've heard have made this exhortation either. And not in one single Magisterial document, encyclical, council, etc... are the faithful exhorted to give Mary worship. Not one. And yet here are all your ex-Catholic friends making the claim.

One thing is for sure, one of either me or your ex-Catholic friends, are totally delusional. At least we can agree on that.
 
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Zeek

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Hi, I just spent an age responding to this post, but deleted it by mistake, so will just post a quick reply.

I don't know what program it was, but it was clearly said to seek out Mary and ask for her help and her guidence, to pray to her and focus on her. There seems to be a sort of spirit of deception at work...similar to what I have encountered when working with the Christian cults...where language hides the true intent. Worship of Mary is called veneration and praying to her is petition/requests...but the reality is obvious from the words that are said.

I have not made a scandalous accusation, I have declared what I have personally seen and heard with my own eyes and ears....the part that you should consider scandalous seems to elude you at the moment.

Delusion is when a person cannot see or admit to the present reality....and in the case of Mary, it is my present conviction that RC's have had the wool pulled over their eyes with regard to what constitutes worship and prayer...they have followed a dogma that exonerates their actions...they program I saw merely confirmed once again what I already knew.

Many times I have posted examples of worship to Mary, prayer to Mary and other types of things that aptly demonstrate what I have been saying, but because RC's are generally in denial and feel they have to demonstrate their faith in Catholicism, I have yet to have what I call an honest encounter that looks at the facts and sees what all the hullaballoo is about.

Here is a link by former Catholic nun Mary Ann Collins...she makes some salient and very loving points....and clarifies how she worshipped Mary, and how generally Catholics are worshipping Mary contrary to Scripture. MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)
 
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MrPolo

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I have declared what I have personally seen and heard with my own eyes and ears....the part that you should consider scandalous seems to elude you at the moment.

Let me know when you remember what show you saw on the Catholic Channel exhorting Mary worship.

And while you're at it, if you can substantiate that Mary Ann Collins is a real person, feel free to produce perhaps a photo or what convent she was at. There has long been an inability to verify her existence. We know that "she" has flat out lied about various things like how "she" said in Catholicism "Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic." This nonsensical gobbeltygoople is right out of Jack Chick. It's quite vexing that you would consider "her" a source with a straight face.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Let me know when you remember what show you saw on the Catholic Channel exhorting Mary worship.


Let's just assume that most Catholics don't "worship" Mary in the sense of being divine... Please explain to me, how does that substantiate as dogma the medieval theory of "Transubstantiation" as the proper meaning and explanation the word "change" in the Eucharistic texts?


:confused:







.
 
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MrPolo

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Let's just assume that most Catholics don't "worship" Mary in the sense of being divine... Please explain to me, how does that substantiate as dogma the medieval theory of "Transubstantiation" as the proper meaning and explanation the word "change" in the Eucharistic texts?

Did we not discuss this enough in 2009? I'm certainly satisfied that your criticisms are unfounded.
 
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Zeek

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Let me know when you remember what show you saw on the Catholic Channel exhorting Mary worship.

Ok...I see I need to dot every i and cross every t, but it was just something I listened to for 10 minutes at a friends house and the channel was called Eternal Word TV Network I have no idea what the program was, and cannot find it....so just forget what I said, from now on I will be extremely careful in what I say and give all sources.

And while you're at it, if you can substantiate that Mary Ann Collins is a real person, feel free to produce perhaps a photo or what convent she was at. There has long been an inability to verify her existence. We know that "she" has flat out lied about various things like how "she" said in Catholicism "Reading the Bible was considered to be proof that someone was a heretic." This nonsensical gobbeltygoople is right out of Jack Chick. It's quite vexing that you would consider "her" a source with a straight face.

Fair enough...I did not realise she could be a fake, and I will scrub her testimony from my collection, and ask you to disregard the link to her as it is obviously unreliable...I really will be more careful.

So leaving all that aside, can you tell me why so many people including ex-Catholics, are convinced Mary is worshipped, and that the word veneration is used to confound the nature of this worship...probably best to take it to another thread as it is off topic here.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
Let's just assume that most Catholics don't "worship" Mary in the sense of being divine... Please explain to me, how does that substantiate as dogma the medieval theory of "Transubstantiation" as the proper meaning and explanation the word "change" in the Eucharistic texts?

Did we not discuss this enough?


It was a request and a question.

Do you have something to say? If not, why say something?

SOME consider divisive DOGMA of one denomination suggests a discussion of whether it is true. Some don't. I think we understand that.




.
 
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MrPolo

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can you tell me why so many people including ex-Catholics, are convinced Mary is worshipped
Josiah is not going to be happy with the off-topic talk, but one last tangent to answer your question: I can speculate in general, but it may vary from case to case of course. But your question is little different than the scads of ex-Christians altogether who are convinced Christians are delusional or that Jesus didn't exist. The numbers are ultimately irrelevant to the truth.

If the Catholic Church were the true fullness of Christ's Church, then it would stand to reason that persecution would be aimed in the Church's direction. So that's one possible answer.

As well, in 21st Century America there is little to no capacity to recognize the difference between the worship due to God alone and the awe given to a saint like the crowds in Acts 5 did for Peter. People will equate asking for someone in heaven to "worship." It's a fallacious notion on its face. This may also be due to those outside Catholicism trying to convert those within Catholicism that don't even realize asking a saint for intercession is the same as asking a saint on earth for intercession, like Paul did so many times when he asked others to pray for him.

Also, those observing from the outside, or even poorly catechised Catholics from the inside, often do not have the grasp of the theology that a well-versed Catholic does. As a result, they erroneously equate kneeling in front of a statue as "worship" when that is also nonsensical on its face. Not only are there abundant examples of people kneeling or bowing before someone else in Scripture that isn't due to worship, but the person on the outside has no business making claims about what the kneeling person is doing in prayer.

Finally, you might want to pick at your friends' brains to get to the real heart of the matter. Too often, there is some peripheral problem they have with the Church which results in their eagerness to believe various myths advanced by the ignorant. For instance, a lot of former Catholics are not comfortable with the notion of contraception. No free sex whenever I want? Well, that Church stinks! I bet they worship Mary too! What, you won't grant me my annulment? Agh!! You are an evil Church! I should confess to God through a priest!! I'm not comfortable with that!! Masturbating is sinful?!!! I reject your teachings! You worship Mary too! Maybe they even are scandalized by abusive infiltrative priests and extend the anger to other teachings without merit. Like I said, case to case varies.

There are often deep personal wounds behind the rejection rather than an honest rejection of the theology. We can know this because when asked to support their claims on Catholic theology, they are unable to cite a single authoritative thing from the actual teaching office of the Church. It will be how they felt, or what they perceived about kneeling, or they thought the mass was "boring" or whatever else.

Now, I hope I am not one to scoff at another's personal wounds. But even so, true teaching is true teaching, and myths are myths. You probably incur the same myths from skeptics. "Christians think an invisible man lives in the sky." "Christians think prayer is magic." "Christians think the Bible fell out of the sky from God." "Believing in Jesus is the same as believing in the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster.'" Heard that one? Do a web search some time. There are plenty of misconceptions to go around, not just about the Catholic Church (although I would agree with you there are a lot of people who think about the Church as you say---we just disagree about their degree of expertise on actual Church teaching or the theological perspective of those who actually practice the faith.)

Finally finally, even if this nun was a real person, I would still say the best place to go to understand a Church's theology is someone who is authoritative on that Church's theology. Not some ex-member who might have a personal bent. For Catholics that would be the Catechism. For the Lutherans, perhaps the Book of Concord or Luther's large or small catechisms. For "Reformed tradition" it's the Westminster Confession. I would be awfully cautious and ready to cross-check claims of some disgruntled ex-Reformed guy who could have just walked out after an argument with his pastor and decided to rip on everything else about what that congregation "supposedly teaches." In other words, if there were a dozen priests in the U.S. who left the Church and tried to tell everyone about how Catholics worship Mary, and then there were the remaining 47,988 priests who think Catholics don't worship Mary, then what nonsense is it to prop up the "ex-priests" as "experts" who are the ones who got it right? Especially when they can't cite you a single authoritative doc to support their claims.

Sometimes it's like a bad breakup. Some personal hurt feelings occur in one of the members of the relationship and then they can never say another good thing about their old partner again. They are even willing to spread false rumors to get back at the hurt they felt they got when they were mad about how they felt about the Church's teaching on divorce or whatever.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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If the Catholic Church were the true fullness of Christ's Church, then it would stand to reason that persecution would be aimed in the Church's direction. So that's one possible answer.


The classic LDS one. Fits with the LDS. The Jews occasionally use it, too. Sure fits there.


Personally, IMO, the US government mandating that the Japanese officially drop the theology of the Emperor as divine is not an indication that ergo the Japanese Emperor is. I don't agree with your premise that being the object of persecution proves correctness.


Nor do I see that such means that the speculations of western, RCC "Scholasticism" with its application of two pagan (long forgotten) secular theories to try to explain the word "change" in the Eucharistic texts (which, of course, doesn't exist - not even once) is ergo correct and a matter of greatest importance to all and greatest certainty of truth.







.
 
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MrPolo

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The classic LDS one. Fits with the LDS. The Jews occasionally use it, too. Sure fits there.

The notion that the true Church will be persecuted fits perfectly with the Apostles' teaching in case you didn't notice. The true Church will have that as a characteristic whether or not this or that group tries to usurp the claim too. But we've been over this before too and it has gone absolutely nowhere for reasons that could get me banned if I articulated them......

But since you want to talk Eucharist. We can rehash that briefly if you really really want. I wonder what you think was given for mankind on the cross. Was it Christ or Christ + common bread?
 
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