The Error of Lordship Salvation?

Humble_Disciple · Jun 11, 2021

This is from the doctrinal statement of the Salvation Army, of which I used to be a member:

Continued obedient faith
Our salvation is assured as long as we continue to exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Such faith is expressed in obedience to his leadings, will and commands. Obedience as a free-will choice is a consequence of faith, and without it, faith die
Salvation

This would mean that our assurance of salvation is conditional upon continued, obedient faith, rather than the presumption that God will save us no matter how we live, even if we fall away from the faith.

At the same time, I believe that good works and avoidance of sin are a gift of God's grace, imparted to us as sanctifying grace from Christ's finished work on the cross:
Imparted righteousness - Wikipedia

Clare73 · Jun 11, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

It's nowhere presented in the NT that our obedience is in gratitude for salvation.

It's everywhere presented that faith grows through the holiness of obedience in the Holy Spirit,
which growth in faith is the sanctification/holiness commanded by God himself (1 Peter 1:15-16).
True faith obeys. Where there is no obedience, there is no true faith.
And only true faith saves.

So much so that belief (faith) and obedience are the same word in Greek (peitho),
because as the song says about love and marriage, "You can't have one without the other."

That is what MacArthur means by "Lordship Salvation," true faith which saves obeys, without obedience it is not true faith and does not save.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:

I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
It's nowhere presented in the NT that our obedience is in gratitude for salvation.

Where does it say in the New Testament that obedience is required for salvation?

Let us always remember that God considers us righteous by faith alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience to the Law can affect this irreversible and eternal position (John 5:24; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16). Neither should our behavior affect our assurance in Christ, “in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him” (Ephesians 3:12). If you keep these truths in mind, you can obey from a heart of gratitude instead of from compulsion and fear. Salvation is liberating (John 8:32, John 8:36)!
The Harsh Hand of Lordship Theology – Grace Evangelical Society

Believers who continue in sin might receive a lesser reward in heaven, but that doesn't mean they won't enter heaven at all. This is the difference between faith and discipleship, justification and sanctification.

public hermit · Jun 11, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:

I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

Can one have Jesus as Savior without having Jesus as Lord? The debate about whether obedience is grace securing or a response to grace is a second order issue. Would you say one can have Jesus as Savior and yet not have Jesus as Lord? Without a clear answer to that first order question, the other debate is pointless.

Clare73 · Jun 11, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Where does it say in the New Testament that obedience is required for salvation?

Study the nature of true faith, which is the only faith that saves, in post #2.

Believers who continue in sin might receive a lesser reward in heaven, but that doesn't mean they won't enter heaven at all. This is the difference between faith and discipleship, justification and sanctification.

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Can one have Jesus as Savior without having Jesus as Lord? The debate about whether obedience is grace securing or a response to grace is a second order issue. Would you say one can have Jesus as Savior and yet not have Jesus as Lord? Without a clear answer to that first order question, the other debate is pointless.

Obedience come from the spirit, not from our flesh. If we follow the law, we have fallen from grace.

Clare73 · Jun 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Can one have Jesus as Savior without having Jesus as Lord? The debate about whether obedience is grace securing or a response to grace is a second order issue. Would you say one can have Jesus as Savior and yet not have Jesus as Lord? Without a clear answer to that first order question, the other debate is pointless.

Obedience is faith-proving, without which obedience there is no true faith which saves.

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
It's nowhere presented in the NT that our obedience is in gratitude for salvation.

It's everywhere presented that faith grows through the holiness of obedience in the Holy Spirit,
which growth in faith is the sanctification/holiness commanded by God himself (1 Peter 1:15-16).
True faith obeys. Where there is no obedience, there is no true faith.
And only true faith saves.

So much so that belief (faith) and obedience are the same word in Greek (peitho),
because as the song says about love and marriage, "You can't have one without the other."

That is what MacArthur means by "Lordship Salvation," true faith which saves obeys, without obedience it is not true faith and does not save.

True faith, trusts in Gods promises no matter how imposible it seems. Romans chapter 4
We are save by grace, not by works through faith.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Can one have Jesus as Savior without having Jesus as Lord? The debate about whether obedience is grace securing or a response to grace is a second order issue. Would you say one can have Jesus as Savior and yet not have Jesus as Lord? Without a clear answer to that first order question, the other debate is pointless.

What is a better motivator for holy living, fear or gratitude?

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. - 2 Timothy 1:7

Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. - Philippians 4:6

In order to present their Gospel of fear, Lordship teachers have to confuse terms like "Lord" and "obey." -

The famous question of the Philippian jailer is to the point: “…what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30). Paul’s answer is unequivocal: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31).

Paul states but one condition: belief in Christ. No other action is required.

Not turning from sins, not commitment, not willingness to serve Christ, not a promise to confess Him, not baptism, not obedience to God’s commands, nor anything else. There is one condition only: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. All who do so will be saved in that very moment!
Does Free Grace Theology Diminish the Gospel? – Grace Evangelical Society

John 3:36 teaches this truth, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (NASV, emphasis mine)...

The verb in John 3:36 which is translated by the New American Standard Bible as he who does not obey is apeitheō. The basic dictionary definition of this verb is to disobey. However, when used in antithesis with believing (the first part of the verse reads, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life”), it simply means to disbelieve. The standard Greek lexicon, Bauer, Gingrich, and Danker, says simply, “Since, in the view of the early Christians, the supreme disobedience was a refusal to believe their gospel, apeitheō may be restricted in some passages to the meaning disbelieve, be an unbeliever” (p. 82). Or, to put it another way, when one hears the Gospel and is challenged to believe in Christ, but for whatever reason does not, he has in fact disobeyed the call to believe! The same word is used in this way in other passages such as Acts 14:2 and 1 Pet 2:7; 4:17 (see also Acts 5:32; 6:7).

The title of this article, “Obedience Is Necessary to Receive Eternal Life,” is not referring to an obedience of self-righteous good works, but rather to an obedience that is faith in the Gospel. The call of the Gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31;1 John 5:1).
Does Free Grace Theology Diminish the Gospel? – Grace Evangelical Society

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
Obedience is faith-proving, without which obedience there is no true faith which saves.

We have two natures, romans chapter 7. We all obey God in the spirit, by the law of faith. Nevertheless, in our flesh. There is none that pleases God. We should await the promise in which we are seal in the holy ghost, our glorification will free us from Adam.

HTacianas · Jun 11, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation is so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I cannot help but condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This is a destructive heresy, because it confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Lordship salvation teachers are like modern-day Pharisees:

I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, is destructive, because it turns people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

How long has this "lordship salvation" idea been going on?

Humble_Disciple · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
Obedience is faith-proving, without which obedience there is no true faith which saves.

Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation.

Having said that, some caveats are in order.

1. This does not mean that a believer will always be fruitful. Certainly we can admit that if there can be hours and days when a believer can be unfruitful, then why may there not also be months and even years when he can be in that same condition? Paul exhorted believers to engage in good works so they would not be unfruitful (Titus 3:14). Peter also exhorted believers to add the qualities of Christian character to their faith lest they be unfruitful (2 Peter 1:8). Obviously, both of those passages indicate that a true believer might be unfruitful. And the simple fact that both Paul and Peter exhort believers to be fruitful shows that believers are not always fruitful.

2. This does not mean that a certain person’s fruit will necessarily be outwardly evident. Even if I know the person and have some regular contact with him, I still may not see his fruit. Indeed, I might even have legitimate grounds for wondering if he is a believer because I have not seen fruit. His fruit may be very private or erratic, but the fact that I do not see it does not mean it is not there.

3. My understanding of what fruit is and therefore what I expect others to bear may be faulty and/or incomplete. It is all too easy to have a mental list of spiritual fruits and to conclude if someone does not produce what is on my list that he or she is not a believer. But the reality is that most lists that we humans devise are too short, too selective, too prejudiced, and often extrabiblical. God likely has a much more accurate and longer list than most of us do. Nevertheless, every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer. In speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ, Paul says unequivocally that every believer will have praise come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

So Great Salvation, Charles Ryrie, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 45-46
Bearing Fruit | Bible.org

As saved sinners, it's not our job to be the fruit police.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 11, 2021

HTacianas said:
How long has this "lordship salvation" idea been going on?

It probably started when John MacArthur wrote The Gospel According to Jesus.

Lordship salvation controversy - Wikipedia

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

HTacianas said:
How long has this "lordship salvation" idea been going on?

Since Paul gospel of grace, Im afraid. It is the idea, we need works of the law in order to be save.

HTacianas · Jun 11, 2021

GraceInChrist said:
Since Paul gospel of grace, Im afraid. It is the idea, we need works of the law in order to be save.

I agree with you. But honestly, since reading that article I regret getting involved in this discussion.

Clare73 · Jun 11, 2021

GraceInChrist said:
True faith, trusts in Gods promises no matter how imposible it seems. Romans chapter 4
We are save by grace, not by works, through faith.

There is counterfeit faith, and there is true faith.
Only true faith saves.

Counterfeit faith talks the game, true faith walks the game.

True faith obeys. . .no obedience, no true faith, only counterfeit faith at best.

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
There is counterfeit faith, and there is true faith.

Counterfeit faith talks the game, true faith walks the game.

True faith obeys. . .no obedience, no true faith, only counterfeit faith at best.

We obey in our spirit, not in our bodies. We have two natures. You shouldnt doubt the promises of glorification out of following works of the law. That is to fall from grace.

We are save by grace through faith. Not by works through faith.

public hermit · Jun 11, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
What is a better motivator for holy living, fear or gratitude

Must one be holy to be saved? That is essentially the same question as, "Can Jesus be Savior without being Lord?"

What is your position on that 1st order question?

Humble_Disciple said:
In order to present their Gospel of fear, Lordship teachers have to confuse terms like "Lord" and "obey.

Why is that a confusion? If I call Jesus "My Lord" and don't obey him, am I lying? Genuine question.

GraceInChrist · Jun 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Must one be holy to be saved? That is essentially the same question as, "Can Jesus be Savior without being Lord?"

What is your position on that 1st order question?

Why is that a confusion? If I call Jesus "My Lord" and don't obey him, am I lying? Genuine question.

The biggest question is. If we indeed obey him with our flesh. He died in vain.

Clare73 · Jun 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
There is counterfeit faith, and there is true faith.

Counterfeit faith talks the game, true faith walks the game.

True faith obeys. . .no obedience, no true faith, only counterfeit faith at best.

GraceInChrist said:
We obey in our spirit, not in our bodies. We have two natures. You shouldnt doubt the promises of glorification out of following works of the law. That is to fall from grace.

We are save by grace through faith. Not by works through faith.

"Through faith," which must be true faith or grace is not applied.

The Error of Lordship Salvation?

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