The Enemy List:

[The Barbarian]

The Trump enemies list: The critics the White House might strip of security clearance
During a hastily announced news briefing on Wednesday, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders announced that, as threatened, President Trump was exercising his authority to strip national-security clearance from former CIA director John O. Brennan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Petty and vengeful. No wonder most Americans no longer trust him.


Consider:

• 55% disapprove of how Trump is handling the "investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election." Just 34% approve.
• 47% approve of how Mueller is handling the probe as opposed to 39% who disapprove, an improvement from the 41% approve/29% disapprove in CNN's last poll in June.
• Almost six in 10 think Russia's attempted interference in the 2016 campaign is a "serious matter that should be fully investigated."
• 56% think Trump has attempted to interfere in the investigation.
• Just more than one in three (37%) of respondents say Trump's public statements about the Russia probe have been completely or mostly true. By contrast, 56% believe what Trump has said about the investigation is either mostly or completely false.
• Almost 80% of Democrats say that the investigation into Russian interference will be either extremely or very important to their votes for Congress this fall.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/14/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-poll/index.html

 

[Chesterton]

Good for Trump. The guy voted for a commie. Should have never had security clearance to start with.

 

[The Barbarian]

Good for Trump. The guy voted for a commie. Should have never had security clearance to start with.

Actually, it's not a clearance problem. He was quite up front about it, noted that his politics had changed, and represented no clearance issues whatever. Brennan was one of the masterminds of the Obama administration's active posture in seeking out terrorists as opposed to a defensive posture. His work in taking out Osama and killing numerous jihadist leaders by drone strikes or special forces operations badly damaged Al-Qaeda and ISIS.

Trump was angry and smarting from his criticism. It was the only way he could think of, to strike back. And it was one of the most impotent things he could do. First, since Brennan is not now employed by the government, it won't keep him from getting new information.

And since his knowledge and expertise aren't affected by Trump's petulant act of spite, it won't keep him from being consulted by news, trade, and academic groups. So it won't affect his income.

But of course, it will produce yet one more bit of data showing Trump's lack of character and intelligence.

I suppose he'll go down his enemies list and do the same for the other people who have hurt his feelings. No one really cares.

As you see, a majority of the American public questions Trump's loyalty and honesty.

 

[Chesterton]

Actually, it's not a clearance problem. He was quite up front about it, noted that his politics had changed, and represented no clearance issues whatever. Brennan was one of the masterminds of the Obama administration's active posture in seeking out terrorists as opposed to a defensive posture. His work in taking out Osama and killing numerous jihadist leaders by drone strikes or special forces operations badly damaged Al-Qaeda and ISIS.

Trump was angry and smarting from his criticism. It was the only way he could think of, to strike back. And it was one of the most impotent things he could do. First, since Brennan is not now employed by the government, it won't keep him from getting new information.

And since his knowledge and expertise aren't affected by Trump's petulant act of spite, it won't keep him from being consulted by news, trade, and academic groups. So it won't affect his income.

But of course, it will produce yet one more bit of data showing Trump's lack of character and intelligence.

I suppose he'll go down his enemies list and do the same for the other people who have hurt his feelings. No one really cares.

As you see, a majority of the American public questions Trump's loyalty and honesty.

Oh yeah, Brennan was upfront about it - while he was attached to a lie detector and had no choice. This traitor who used the word "treasonous", voted for a Stalinist communist during the Cold War! I hope Trump does drain more people like this out of the swamp.

 

[Sistrin]

So this is where you went.

...former CIA director John O. Brennan...

Do you understand what the term "former" means?

 

[The Barbarian]

Oh yeah, Brennan was upfront about it - while he was attached to a lie detector and had no choice.

Show us that. He merely mentioned the fact. As you probably know, it's not a bar to getting a security clearance to have voted for a communist when you were younger. You do know that Ronald Reagan voted for Henry Wallace, right? So that makes Reagan a socialist? C'mon.

And voting isn't treason. Treason would be something like giving our enemies classified information.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

And even that, while disturbingly disloyal to the United States, is technically not treason.

This is why Brennan was wrong when he said Trump's subservient behavior in the press conference with Putin was nothing short of treasonous. We have to have a declared war. The Rosenbergs, who did what Trump did, were executed not for treason, but for handing classified information over to the Russians.

 

[Chesterton]

Show us that. He merely mentioned the fact.

In 1980, Brennan was trying to obtain a top security clearance for the Central Intelligence Agency, and part of the process involved taking a lie detector test. He was asked: “Have you ever worked with or for a group that was dedicated to overthrowing the US?” Brennan explained to the panel what happened next:

"I froze. This was back in 1980, and I thought back to a previous election [1976] where I voted, and I voted for the Communist Party Candidate [Gus Hall]….

I said I was neither Democratic or Republican, but it was my way, as I was going to college, of signaling my unhappiness with the “system," and the need for “change.”

I said I’m not a member of the Communist Party, so the polygrapher looked at me and said, “OK,” and when I was finished with the polygraph, I left and said [to myself] “Well, I’m s-----d.” - source​

As you probably know, it's not a bar to getting a security clearance to have voted for a communist when you were younger.

Obviously not, but it certainly should be. But in Brennan's case, just four years younger. Which is also irrelevant since his views on denying human rights and American values did not change.

You do know that Ronald Reagan voted for Henry Wallace, right? So that makes Reagan a socialist? C'mon.

Everyone knows Reagan was a Democrat before he got "woke" to truth.

And voting isn't treason. Treason would be something like giving our enemies classified information.

I didn't say it was treason. I said Brennan was a traitor.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

And even that, while disturbingly disloyal to the United States, is technically not treason.

This is why Brennan was wrong when he said Trump's subservient behavior in the press conference with Putin was nothing short of treasonous. We have to have a declared war. The Rosenbergs, who did what Trump did, were executed not for treason, but for handing classified information over to the Russians.

Your link is to WAPO's main page. There are lots of articles linked, and I couldn't find what you're talking about.

 

[The Barbarian]

In 1980, Brennan was trying to obtain a top security clearance for the Central Intelligence Agency, and part of the process involved taking a lie detector test. He was asked: “Have you ever worked with or for a group that was dedicated to overthrowing the US?” Brennan explained to the panel what happened next:

"I froze. This was back in 1980, and I thought back to a previous election [1976] where I voted, and I voted for the Communist Party Candidate [Gus Hall]….

I said I was neither Democratic or Republican, but it was my way, as I was going to college, of signaling my unhappiness with the “system," and the need for “change.”

I said I’m not a member of the Communist Party, so the polygrapher looked at me and said, “OK,” and when I was finished with the polygraph, I left and said [to myself] “Well, I’m s-----d.” - ​

You realize that it doesn't mean he was a communist any more than voting for Trump means you're a racist. Yeah, it's more likely than if you voted for someone who wasn't a racist, but that's not by itself enough to deny you a security clearance. It's noteworthy that some people equate exercising one's right to vote with treason. Madison predicted that there would be such people. It's why the treason statute is so tightly written.
​

Obviously not, but it certainly should be. But in Brennan's case, just four years younger.

So we should assume your support for Trump means you're a racist? And this is relevant considering
Trump's views on denying human rights and American values.

On the other hand, for all those other people who voted for Trump as a way of signaling their unhappiness with the system, we'd be fools to claim all of them were racists.

I didn't say it was treason. I said Brennan was a traitor.

We know you want to believe that, but even Trump's giving aid and comfort to the Russians wasn't treason, because we aren't technically at war with Russia.

And as you now realize, voting for someone is never treason, since you are constitutionally permitted to vote for anyone you like.

 

[The Barbarian]

Trump was embarrassed and angered by Brennan's accurate assessment of his behavior. So he lashed out the only way he could. But as you now see, taking away Brennan's security clearance damages Trump, but is no more than an impotent insult to Brennan.

For two reasons.
First, Brennan isn't working for the government now, so he doesn't need a security clearance. And since he's not getting new information, taking away his clearance does nothing at all to keep him from access to classified information.

Second, his knowledge and experience is not affected by Trump's action. News and other sources will continue to employ him because of his past experience.

On the other hand, a Nixonian enemies list can only damage Trump further in the estimation of the American people. By blindly lashing out at his perceived enemies, Trump has further damaged himself.

Poetic justice.

 

[The Barbarian]

"President Trump, it would be an honor if you took my clearance, too."

Retired Adm. William McRaven, the man who oversaw the 2011 Navy SEAL raid that killed Osama bin Laden, issued a stunning rebuke of President Donald Trump's decision to revoke the security clearance of former CIA Director John Brennan on Thursday, defending the former spy chief as "one of the finest public servants I have ever known."
In an op-ed published by the Washington Post, McRaven, a former Navy SEAL who led US Joint Special Operations Command from 2011 to 2014, not only called Brennan "a man of unparalleled integrity," but volunteered to have his own security clearance revoked in an act of solidarity.
"Few Americans have done more to protect this country than John. He is a man of unparalleled integrity, whose honesty and character have never been in question, except by those who don't know him," McRaven wrote.

"Therefore, I would consider it an honor if you would revoke my security clearance as well, so I can add my name to the list of men and women who have spoken up against your presidency," he added.
His comments come just one day after Trump announced his decision to revoke Brennan's security clearance, marking an unprecedented use of a president's authority over the classification system to strike back at one of his prominent critics.

...

"Through your actions, you have embarrassed us in the eyes of our children, humiliated us on the world stage and, worst of all, divided us as a nation," McRaven said of Trump.
"If you think for a moment that your McCarthy-era tactics will suppress the voices of criticism, you are sadly mistaken. The criticism will continue until you become the leader we prayed you would be," he added.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/mcraven-trump-brennan-security-clearance-revoke/index.html

 

[Yonny Costopoulis]

Good for Trump. The guy voted for a commie. Should have never had security clearance to start with.

Trump condemned by 12 former CIA chiefs over revocation of John Brennan's security clearance

I admit to great curiosity. Do you think you have greater knowledge than 12 former CIA chiefs? Or is this the giant conspiracy and all 12 former CIA chiefs are involved? Or what would be your explanation for this opnion?

 

[Annie Proclivite]

The Trump enemies list: The critics the White House might strip of security clearance
During a hastily announced news briefing on Wednesday, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders announced that, as threatened, President Trump was exercising his authority to strip national-security clearance from former CIA director John O. Brennan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Petty and vengeful. No wonder most Americans no longer trust him.


Consider:

• 55% disapprove of how Trump is handling the "investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election." Just 34% approve.
• 47% approve of how Mueller is handling the probe as opposed to 39% who disapprove, an improvement from the 41% approve/29% disapprove in CNN's last poll in June.
• Almost six in 10 think Russia's attempted interference in the 2016 campaign is a "serious matter that should be fully investigated."
• 56% think Trump has attempted to interfere in the investigation.
• Just more than one in three (37%) of respondents say Trump's public statements about the Russia probe have been completely or mostly true. By contrast, 56% believe what Trump has said about the investigation is either mostly or completely false.
• Almost 80% of Democrats say that the investigation into Russian interference will be either extremely or very important to their votes for Congress this fall.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/14/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-poll/index.html

There isn't any substance to the Russian collusion hoax. Just because a slight majority fell for the lie doesn't mean it's true. Let it go and move on.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Keep draining the swamp....

 

[Chesterton]

You realize that it doesn't mean he was a communist any more than voting for Trump means you're a racist. Yeah, it's more likely than if you voted for someone who wasn't a racist, but that's not by itself enough to deny you a security clearance. It's noteworthy that some people equate exercising one's right to vote with treason. Madison predicted that there would be such people. It's why the treason statute is so tightly written.

And as you now realize, voting for someone is never treason, since you are constitutionally permitted to vote for anyone you like.

Are you reading what I write? Why are you claiming I "realize" things to which I never said anything contrary? I said he was a traitor. "Treason" is a specific legal term; "traitor" is not.

So we should assume your support for Trump means you're a racist? And this is relevant considering Trump's views on denying human rights and American values.

Well you know what happens when you assume. I didn't vote for Trump, but unlike those with Trump Derangement Syndrome I'm not so filled with hate that I can't give him credit for doing something positive. Your thread is about Trump's action regarding Brennan. I'll even agree with you that Trump may well have acted out of spite, but in this case the result was good, even if just symbolic.

...Trump's giving aid and comfort to the Russians...

Here you go.

 

[Chesterton]

Trump condemned by 12 former CIA chiefs over revocation of John Brennan's security clearance

I admit to great curiosity. Do you think you have greater knowledge than 12 former CIA chiefs?

I don't think I have greater knowledge, but apparently I'm smarter then them, because they're obviously confused. Their condemnation is based on the stifling effect on Brennan's free speech. The guy has been all over television and social media since the revocation.

Or is this the giant conspiracy and all 12 former CIA chiefs are involved? Or what would be your explanation for this opnion?

There's nothing surprising about their condemnation. All of the Washington D.C. establishment hates Trump. Democrat and Republican like, they hate him and fear him, which is a big part of his appeal with the common people.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
You realize that it doesn't mean he was a communist any more than voting for Trump means you're a racist. Yeah, it's more likely than if you voted for someone who wasn't a racist, but that's not by itself enough to deny you a security clearance. It's noteworthy that some people equate exercising one's right to vote with treason. Madison predicted that there would be such people. It's why the treason statute is so tightly written.
And as you now realize, voting for someone is never treason, since you are constitutionally permitted to vote for anyone you like.

Are you reading what I write? Why are you claiming I "realize" things to which I never said anything contrary? I said he was a traitor. "Treason" is a specific legal term; "traitor" is not.

Traitor Law and Legal Definition

A person who is guilty of treason is known as a traitor. Treason is punishable by death if a traitor levies war against his state or country or supports its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. A traitor shall be convicted on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in an open court.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/traitor/

Well you know what happens when you assume.

You assume that "traitor" is not a specific legal term, for one thing.

I didn't vote for Trump

Neither did most voters. But I merely offered a hypothetical case, not accusing you of that kind of disloyalty.

Of course, I'm not so filled with hate that I can't give him credit for doing something positive. I gave him credit for attacking Syrian military bases, when Assad thought it was safe again to use chemical weapons.

The thread is about Trump's action regarding Brennan.

I'll even agree with you that Trump may well have acted out of spite,

It's his M.O. He acts like a deranged person whenever he gets the slightest criticism.

but in this case the result was good, even if just symbolic.

It's not just symbolic. Other patriots are calling Trump out for it. One, a retired Admiral who managed the operation that took out bin Laden, let Trump know he would consider it an honor to have his clearance pulled like Brennan's was.

Other real Americans, men and women who didn't finagle a draft deferment for "bone spurs", are starting to let him know what they think of his character.

(Barbarian notes Trump's consistent giving aid to Putin)

Here you go

2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support
President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved.


Diana Denman, a Republican delegate who supported arming U.S. allies in Ukraine, has told people that Trump aide J.D. Gordon said at the Republican Convention in 2016 that Trump directed him to support weakening that position in the official platform.
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/5683...d-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support

European press mocks Trump as 'weak,' 'Putin's poodle' after summit
"Weak," a "poodle," and a "stooge:" these were some of the ways European newspapers described President Donald Trump following his summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin this week.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/eur...p-weak-putins-poodle-summit/story?id=56641842

 

[The Barbarian]

There isn't any substance to the Russian collusion hoax.

The Trump campaign sent Donnie Jr. to the Trump tower to meet with Russian agents with Jr.s written admission that the meeting was to get "dirt on Hillary Clinton." So there you are. There's plenty more. Want to see more?

Just because a slight majority fell for the lie doesn't mean it's true.

Donnie's admission means it's true. Let it go and move on.

 

[Chesterton]

Barbarian observes:
You realize that it doesn't mean he was a communist any more than voting for Trump means you're a racist. Yeah, it's more likely than if you voted for someone who wasn't a racist, but that's not by itself enough to deny you a security clearance. It's noteworthy that some people equate exercising one's right to vote with treason. Madison predicted that there would be such people. It's why the treason statute is so tightly written.
And as you now realize, voting for someone is never treason, since you are constitutionally permitted to vote for anyone you like.



Traitor Law and Legal Definition

A person who is guilty of treason is known as a traitor. Treason is punishable by death if a traitor levies war against his state or country or supports its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. A traitor shall be convicted on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in an open court.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/traitor/

Sure, and a person who commits murder is known as a murderer. But "traitor" has a larger, colloquial sense. You can be a traitor to your wife or your favorite sports team; you can't commit treason against them.

You assume that "traitor" is not a specific legal term, for one thing.



Neither did most voters. But I merely offered a hypothetical case, not accusing you of that kind of disloyalty.

Of course, I'm not so filled with hate that I can't give him credit for doing something positive. I gave him credit for attacking Syrian military bases, when Assad thought it was safe again to use chemical weapons.

The thread is about Trump's action regarding Brennan.



It's his M.O. He acts like a deranged person whenever he gets the slightest criticism.



It's not just symbolic. Other patriots are calling Trump out for it. One, a retired Admiral who managed the operation that took out bin Laden, let Trump know he would consider it an honor to have his clearance pulled like Brennan's was.

Other real Americans, men and women who didn't finagle a draft deferment for "bone spurs", are starting to let him know what they think of his character.

(Barbarian notes Trump's consistent giving aid to Putin)




2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support
President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved.


Diana Denman, a Republican delegate who supported arming U.S. allies in Ukraine, has told people that Trump aide J.D. Gordon said at the Republican Convention in 2016 that Trump directed him to support weakening that position in the official platform.
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/5683...d-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support

European press mocks Trump as 'weak,' 'Putin's poodle' after summit
"Weak," a "poodle," and a "stooge:" these were some of the ways European newspapers described President Donald Trump following his summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin this week.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/eur...p-weak-putins-poodle-summit/story?id=56641842

Okay, so the thread isn't so much about Brennan's clearance revocation but is just another "I hate Trump generally" thread. (Wow, you've got three currently going in this forum alone. Are you and tulc having a competition?) I'm not interested. But since you called it "Enemies List", I'd like to remind you that Bill Clinton was the first president to actually compile a computer database of "enemies", and the Obama Whitehouse had its "if you see someone online being critical of Obama, send us an e-mail and let us know!" campaign.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
You realize that it doesn't mean he was a communist any more than voting for Trump means you're a racist. Yeah, it's more likely than if you voted for someone who wasn't a racist, but that's not by itself enough to deny you a security clearance. It's noteworthy that some people equate exercising one's right to vote with treason. Madison predicted that there would be such people. It's why the treason statute is so tightly written.

Traitor Law and Legal Definition
A person who is guilty of treason is known as a traitor. Treason is punishable by death if a traitor levies war against his state or country or supports its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. A traitor shall be convicted on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in an open court.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/traitor/

Sure, and a person who commits murder is known as a murderer.

In this case, "traitor" is a legal term.

But "traitor" has a larger, colloquial sense.

If your argument depends on equivocation, isn't that an important clue about your argument? As I said, the founders knew there would be people who'd make spurious accusations of treason and so they made it very specific.

Okay, so the thread isn't so much about Brennan's clearance revocation

Mostly, it's about Trump's petty vindictiveness and the way it is backfiring on him.

But since you called it "Enemies List", I'd like to remind you that Bill Clinton was the first president to actually compile a computer database of "enemies"

You've been misled about that. The only other president known to compile such a list for the purpose of "getting even" with people was Richard Nixon. Again, equivocation is not your friend.

 

[Chesterton]

If your argument depends on equivocation, isn't that an important clue about your argument?

I actually didn't make an argument, I made an assertion: Brennan's a traitor.

As I said, the founders knew there would be people who'd make spurious accusations of treason and so they made it very specific.

For the third time, I did not make an accusation of treason. If your argument depends on putting fictional words in my mouth, you should just start an argument with an imaginary friend and leave me out of it. (That should be easy for you; you're already talking in the third person.)

Mostly, it's about Trump's petty vindictiveness and the way it is backfiring on him.

I disagree that's it backfiring.

You've been misled about that. The only other president known to compile such a list for the purpose of "getting even" with people was Richard Nixon. Again, equivocation is not your friend.

It's well documented. And Obama in his second term came to be referred to, even by some Democrats, as "Nixonesque" in his paranoia about perceived enemies.