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The End of Times

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by e4God, Jul 23, 2002.

  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
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    Private
    Hi e4god, sorry I am a little late on entering in to this thread but I am getting the impression you are very curious about the preterist position on end times events, prophecy etc..... I am somewhat new in preterism as I am approching my one year anniversary of adopting the full preterist position, I would like to refer you to an author who helped me last year with the same questions you have listed in your quote/post. He has a book called "REVELATION: KINGDOMS IN CONFLICT" the author's name is Gene Fadeley.... That book will answer a lot of questions for you as it did for me.  I would also recommend the video: "The Last Days"  .... they also just recently have come out with a new video:  "The second coming on trial" ..... I don't have that one yet, but I am thinking about ordering it soon.  When I say soon, I mean within my lifetime ;) http://www.bibleprophecy.com/bible_prophecy_books.html

    BTW, on your list of questions.... all those things have taken place during the lifetime of those living just as Jesus said.  I'll take His word for it!  Do you believe every word that Jesus spoke?
     
  2. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Hi eforGod,
    Where did you go? :scratch:

    I am not much for reading books 'about' the Word, other than the Word itself! Matt. 4:4. I see James gives a site, (that I went to) but there is to much 'human talk' in reaching a point of view for me.

    Scripture alone sets my feet secure, or I do not except it until I am convinced! (See 2 Tim. 3:16's 'ALL')
    Case in point: The movie 'Left Behind'. And because it takes much prayer & time to post here, (that I cannot emaile in-for future use)
    I will give you a site to try that uses scripture to understand the movies 'theme'?

    This is the site:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

    It is a 'publick' library site for me to save some of my reformatory work on.
    It is not for the 'milk' fed babes or the week in heart.

    Anyway, at the top of all messages it says: MSG# [ ] (that is supposed to be a blank box) :) If you want to write Post No. [132] in the box & then click on the [GO] button, you will see a part one, of a two part post, on "Left Behind" ?
    Part No. 2 is the next message. No. 133.

    Will you agree with these missives? Maybe not, but you will find a lot to think about that is printed by our Master's Word.

    Pastor N.B.
     
  3. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    Hmmm. I don't recall posting a link to a web site on this thread. Perhaps you refer to Franklin's post.
     
  4. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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    Hi,
    'i' stand corrected. You are right!
    P/N/B
     
  5. Patty

    Patty Nice ta see yas!

    +1
     

    The Modern Church is already clueless in too many things.

    The Church WON'T be ready.

    The Church, it seems, shows evidence that it will defend the status quo even in the face of miracles and the obvious presence of God. 

    Dogma imposed on men does not result in freely given love.  You cannot require a man to love anyone.  You cannot force or oblige a man to do things for love.  You cannot threaten a man with the terror of losing his soul if he does not comply with dogma, and expect him to give the object of your dogma freely given love from the heart.

     

    Patty
     
  6. e4God

    e4God Visiting WebHead

    234
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    Christian
    Hey all. Thanks for the posts.

    I have been checking in, reading, following discussion, digesting, but have been working too many hours to do all the suggested reading, much less stop and post .

    Though feeling challenged in regard to my conventional (or-whatever-you-call-it) position, I find that it takes a lot of human reasoning to support what seems to be called the Preterist position.

    Can somebody flesh that out for me? Is there a good definition of Preterism here? Have a link for me?

    Though not a 'trained bible scholar' I have good working knowledge of the word. 

    Are there something like 3 fairly well defined schools of thought in scholarly circles re the end times teachings, or a lot more than that?  What are they and what are their main differences?
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi e4god,  Maybe this link will help... it's by David Curtis.....

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/paradigm.html

    I hope this helps brother....... :) 

    also...... http://www.preteristarchive.com/
     
  8. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    Here is what I have said before. . .

    And, I would also add. . .

     
  9. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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    ********

    Hi,
    Rev. 3 speakes of the 'seven' Virgin 'Church' denominations. (see Rev. 1:19-20 & Rev. 2:5) These are not the Great Whore or Her Daughters. And again, if God can be trusted, this is nothing new under the sun! (I should say, if we can believe God :sleep: ) It has been, and it will be again, at the end! Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. See also Amos 5:1 & 2 for the first total fall of a Virgin denomination.

    As had the first chosen Virgin denomination in Christ's day (John 1:11-12)
    rejected their leader, so will the last True Virgin denomination in our day.
    (I say Virgin as in Doctrine only!-see Matt. 23:2)

    OK:
    Now for Christ, the Word with His answer for your question? The last time/ frame of Rev. 3 has two denominations on the scene at the same time with identical Virgins doctrines. (as did Israel of old & Christ's new 'offshoot' denomination)

    They are called Philadelphia & Laodicea. One will be kept of God, & the other is described as the synagogue (denomination) of 's'atan. See verse 9 ibide. Yet, they still claim doctrinal Virginity!

    Verse 14-17 ibide. sorts out the two denominations. Here is what is said of Laodicea,
    "I know thy works, [that thou art neither cold nor hot:] (LOVE WISE)
    I would that thou wert [cold or hot.] (even the cold sinner could be reached before these next refered to ones)
    So [because thou art lukewarm, , and neither cold or hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth]." A sickening love for the Master. Talk, talk, talk, yet [second place or 'beyond' in a love relationship!] Now, notice that Christ does not despute their doctrinal wisdom! Just their from 0-10 degree of love for Him... (notice that He did not say that they had not been born again! see Heb. 64-6)

    "Because [thou sayest,] I am [rich,] and increased with goods, [and have the need of nothing:] (notice!) AND KNOWEST NOT THAT THOU ART [WRETCHED,] and [MISERABLE], [POOR,] [BLIND] and [NAKED]: ..."

    Some will say that the next verse gives hope! Yes, [the verse] does, yet they will go the same route as Israel of old, by [free choice]. (see Isa. 5:3) They became Christless by their own self rightous nakedness!! Yet they have flawless doctrinal teachings, as did Israel of old! So said the Word of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 :cry: see Luke 19:41 & Matt. 23:38 "Your house (denomination) is left unto you desolate." And: as the Master was rejected, who replaced Him in Rev. 3:9?

    Remember: These are not Rev. 17:5's 'Mother [of] Harlots' even.

    In the Master's quickly finished for the House of God [first] as seen in 1 Peter 4:17,
    Pastor N.B.
     
  10. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    Here's my take on the subject.  As the rapture draws near the church will experience a might outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.  God's glory will flood the earth and there will arise many prophets and apostles to lead the people.  They will be as those of old, carrying the full wait of God's annointing and authority, with demonstrations of God's power and love.  This will cause a great stir within the denominations as many step out to follow the presence of God, and many resist.  God's will will be honored once more as reverencial fear floods the church again.  Those who resist will raise themselves up and will lead many more astray.  Many will be won and many will be lost as God saperates the wheat from the tares.  But those who remain true untill the end will be saved.
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,852
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    Peter Said that he was an eyewitness to the fulfillment of Joel's "last days" prophesy. (Acts 2:16-17)

    Are you saying it will be fulfilled again?

    How many times must Joel's prophesy be fulfilled before we can accept it has been completely fulfilled?

    Peter claimed infallibly that it was fulfilled and he was an eyewitness.

    Who today will be able to make such an infallible claim?

    You?

    Me?

    That brings up something interesting:

    Who today is capable of infallibly claiming that any particular event is the fulfillment of prophesy?

    Wasn't that an ability that was given only to the original apostles?
     
  12. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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    *****
    Hi,
    Do you not think that your remarks of Joel 2 & Acts 2 might be in this process even now? And what about the message in Mal.4:5, that seems perhaps in the same time frame? If I remember correctly, Christ said that John the Babtist was Elijah if one could handle that? And John was sent to Christ's people only! Even the disciples in Matt. 10:5, 6 were such commanded! The Virgin House of God FIRST. (1 Peter 4:17) And how many in this history [followed] the Master?

    Christ's Word states: "And Jesus said, For judgement I am come into this world, (notice, two key Holy Spirit fullfillments!) That they which see not MIGHT SEE, and that they WHICH SEE might be MADE BLIND." John 9:39,
    (spiritually also) read verse 41?

    Let me just add: The Holy Spirit was to come after the Masters departure. He was to do many things, yet, [number one] was that He was to [UPLIFT CHRIST], and not speake of Himself. So, for a short time the Master was right there IN [PERSON] for ALL OF HIS PROFESSED BELIEVERS to SEE & HAVE THE MASTERS GRACE "IF" they so chose? HE WAS GOD IN PERSON! This next time around we will see Matt. 10:20 & 27 & 25 all being done through the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST! Yet, these ones will be called such words as Beelzebub! Cults? Fanatic's? Hate mongers? UnChristlike? And on & on ????

    Also, the number comparison for the wide gate & the narrow path? Does it not seem that a narrow path will find a much smaller group of these saved ones to you?

    Another thought: :idea: Surely we are seeing the rejection of the Holy Spirit in todays setting in every day print & on national T.V., as well as internet stuff. The 'Quenching & Grieving of the Holy Spirit away'. (Gen. 6:3)But as this is happening, we see the Promise from the Master in 2 Cor. 12:9 of extra grace. What 'i' am suggesting is this, perhaps the Holy Ghost is, & has, been falling all around while a great portion of the ones looking for this, do not recognize Him?

    It is amazing to me, how quickly an honest seeker of truth moves forward, while a professed Christian will not even consider more truth. Try John 12:42-43 for perhaps the reason?

    I did enjoy your 'take' on this.
    P/N/B/
     
  13. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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    SNUP:
    Pastor N.B. here,
    Do you see what I meant? :scratch: (Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15)
    *************************************************
     
  14. e4God

    e4God Visiting WebHead

    234
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    OK. You have me really thinking. Examining what I thought I knew.

    I still have a problem with the preterist position saying that all prophecy is fulfilled. But I can see that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is not some Post millenial judgement. It has taken place already if you take Acts 2 at face value.



    Matthew Henry says:

    While this supports some of what has been discussed here, it does not say that this outpouring ended (fulfilled = past tense) But Matthew Henry says it continues until the end of time ???

    How then shall we understand end of time? This phrase is not in the NASB.  Not that this is the only bible, but it is the easiest one for me to search.

    I had to ask if Revelation speaks to this same day, the Great and Terrible day of the Lord...  I checked.  It does not.  Hmmm....

    According to the preterist position, does this mean we are presently in the millenial reign? Christ has returned in each of us and we reign with him??? (A personal wondering of some time)

    Or have we passed even beyond that?


    <DT>Then what do you do with 2 Peter 3:10 ?


    <DT>


    <DT>

    <DT>


    <DT>Is this only an allegory for the way an individual believer becomes&nbsp;a new creation when born again&nbsp;?</DT>
     
  15. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost continues to empower the Church for witness and ministry to this day. However, it is stretching things a bit to suggest that the "last days" which began at Pentecost continue indefinitely. If the outpouring of the Spirit was a sign of the commencement of the "last days," then it is obvious that a particular period of history was coming to an end. It makes perfect sense to say that the period in question was the age of the Old Covenant, which ended with the fall of Jerusalem.

    I grow rather weary in explaining 2 Peter 3:10, but here's an article on that and related texts: http://www.iosjpatmos.org/baptismdayoflord.htm
     
  16. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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    <DT>Then what do you do with 2 Peter 3:10 ?

    ********
    -THIEF IN THE NIGHT??-
    V. 10 in part: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; [in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise], ..." Sounds future!
    in the which the heavens shall pass away with a [great noise], and the elments shall melt with fervent heat, [the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up]."

    1 Cor. 14:32 tells us that.. "The prophets [are subject to the prophets.]"
    (wish we were , huh?)

    Now: Darkness & Night?? Past or Furture? Remember Christ's day first. 1 Peter 4:17 & Christ's day in our day, & again FIRST! 1 Peter 4:17

    Darkness or light?? "But of the [times and seasons, [brethern] ye have no need that I write unto you. (some at least?) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" Wow that is plain huh? :sleep: :scratch: Which ones are we? Then, we stop at that verse, for that proves our point, some might say, huh?

    But in verse four we 'see' that there is more... "But ye, [brethern], are not in darkness, that, that day should overtake [you] as a thief. Ye are [all the children of the light, and the children of the day]: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." verse 4 & 5 ibide. (compare 1 Jn. 4:6)

    Over on the site below is a two part series on the movie "Left Behind"

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

    If one were to go there, there is at the top of every message a box at the top right side. It looks like this, MSG#[___] {GO} <a go button.
    If you insert the number 132 in the box, the first page will come up. The second page is number 133. (just two parts)

    I think that a sincere person looking for truth will find these bible verses of much interest.
    Pastor N.B.
     
  17. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    So Jesus has been born of a virgin before and Jesus has died on the cross bearing the weight of the world on His sholders before.&nbsp; He has taken the keys of death hell and the grave before.&nbsp; I guess that means that saten stole them back.&nbsp; So He had his beard plucked out and was beaten with a cat of nine tails before.&nbsp; So He has been a spotless lamb paying for the sins of mankind before.&nbsp; why would He have to do everything twice?&nbsp;&nbsp;Wasn't it good enough the first time?

    Ecclesiastes:&nbsp; solomun is trying to show that man can do nothing in himself, that all his efforts are folly, even his ability to create is limited by what God has already created, thus there is nothing new under the sun.&nbsp; You have taken the verse out of context and built your own religion.&nbsp; Keep reading and I will show you.&nbsp;

    Verse 2, Utterly meaningless!&nbsp; Everything is meaningless.&nbsp; Does that mean that salvation is meaningless?&nbsp; No, but rather mans efforts are meaningless.

    Verse 8,&nbsp;All things are wearisome.&nbsp; Does that mean serving God is wearisome, that displaying God's love is wearisome?&nbsp; No, but rather, all of mans efforts without God are wearisome.

    Verse 15, What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.&nbsp; Isaiah 40:4&nbsp; Every valley shall be made low:&nbsp; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5&nbsp; And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together:&nbsp; for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    God has the ability to do what man cannot.&nbsp; Even do something new.
     
  18. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
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    Notice in all of the scriptures sighted about the Day that there is reference to distructive forces released upon the earth.&nbsp; The porpose of which is to bring mankind to repentence.&nbsp; I have not seen such catostrophic events that lead to repentence, nor has history.&nbsp; How then can any of you think that all of this has been fulfilled.&nbsp; Peter, in Acts 2, did not even say that it was all fulfilled, the prophesy of Joel will continue to be work out until the Day of the Lord, which could only be God pouring out His judgement upon the earth.&nbsp; The same judgement that most of Revelations speaks about.

    Taken in context, the generation refered to hear is the one that shall see all these things.&nbsp; Not the generation that Jesus was directly talking to for they did not see these things.&nbsp; Also notice that the last verse says that the prophesy will be fulfilled over a length of time.
     
  19. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
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  20. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    I will say this real clear for you.

    There is nothing new (of man) under the sun.&nbsp; (sin, weakness, fear, hope, pride, love, and lust, etc.)

    Don't tell me that I'm adding words in&nbsp;for the rest of the context shows that it is talking about what man has in himself.&nbsp; This should be obvious to you.&nbsp; Are you so eager to prove you theology that you over look the obvious.
     
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