The Elect.

[Yahu]

So...God does not have a will? Or is it that he is totally removed from human affairs?

Of course He has a will. We sometimes follow that will and sometimes don't. Why else would Yeshua pray that the Father's will be done on earth as it is in heaven? In heaven, all follow His will, on earth it is the willing that yield to Him to do His will through us.

 

[Albion]

Of course He has a will. We sometimes follow that will and sometimes don't. Why else would Yeshua pray that the Father's will be done on earth as it is in heaven? In heaven, all follow His will, on earth it is the willing that yield to Him to do His will through us.

All right, then we are agreed on that. When the actors yell "God wills it," your objection is not that God would never will anything on Earth. God's will CAN be done on Earth. So how does that make Calvinism and Election ridiculous in your sight?

 

[Albion]

Of course NOT. The knights Templar predate Calvin. It is the concept that man claiming to be doing Yah's will are actually in His will, that is the problem.

It is the concept that Yah predestines the actions of the elect

Please forgive me for saying this, but your comment shows that you do not understand predestination. Predestinarians do not consider men to be puppets or believe that God scripts every action that his elect do.

 

[desmalia]

I am saying He did hand dominion over to man in Eden or He is a liar and we KNOW He isn't a liar. Man has dominion over the earth but generally yields it to the enemy spiritual forces due to deception. Yeshua had to come in the form of a man and live a perfect life to reclaim the right of dominion over the earth. Now He has the right to open the sealed deed and reclaim the ownership. That is the sealed book opened in Revelation. That deed is opened before the judgement that falls on the wicked and Yeshua sets up His physical reign.

For Yah to operate here now, He operates through a willing vessel that serves Him. The Lord's Prayer prays that He has His will on earth as He has in Heaven. Why would Yeshua pray that if Yah already had His will here? He has dominion in Heaven but to have dominion on earth it is by operating through us as a willing vessel.

So essentially, your answer to my question is "yes". What a high view of man and puny view of the Creator of the universe: that He handed the reigns over to man, powerlessly watching as we botched things up, and then having to come and rescue us.

In truth, giving humanity dominion over the earth is not the same as handing over sovereignty or even autonomy. You seem to have those terribly confused. The reality is that all of creation always has been, is, and ever will be under the total sovereignty of God.

I am neither Calvinist or Armenian but dead center between the two. It is a common tactic of the enemy to take the position of Yah and divide it to two polar extremes that fight anyone not on their own extreme. This is seen in Galations in the conflict between the 'bondage to law' verses the 'greasy grace' camps while the correct position is dead center being led by the Spirit while having the law as your tutor for righteousness and having grace were we fail. The enemy is on the extremes. In that conflict in Galations, the 'bondage to law' camp is controlled by the anti-christ spirit while the rebellion against the law camp is controlled by HaSatan.

You may not like the label, but in my experience those who say they are on some more enlightened ground than Calvinism and Arminianism, are always Arminian at very least, and more often semi-Pelagian. (Though I do certainly believe that you are not Armenian ). It is also a common error to suggest that Arminian doctrine and Calvinist doctrine are "extremes" They are simply two doctrines of Soteriology that are diametrically opposed to one another. Even if you agree with some points of each, that doesn't make for some mystical middle ground, it simply caters to confusion caused by the logical errors in such an approach.

I would like to encourage you to study what Calvinism and Arminianism actually teach instead of just placing your own preconceived notions over it. It is a common error of the Arminian and semi-Pelagian to look at hyper-Calvinism (which is not Calvinism at all!) and try to paint it as Calvinism. This is not an honest way to deal with the subject, however. I'm happy to recommend some reading if you are interested. You may in the end, choose (of your own will! lol) to vehemently reject Calvinist doctrine, but at least then you would do so with a proper understanding of the doctrines.

 

[Yahu]

So essentially, your answer to my question is "yes". What a high view of man and puny view of the Creator of the universe: that He handed the reigns over to man, powerlessly watching as we botched things up, and then having to come and rescue us.

In truth, giving humanity dominion over the earth is not the same as handing over sovereignty or even autonomy. You seem to have those terribly confused. The reality is that all of creation always has been, is, and ever will be under the total sovereignty of God.


You may not like the label, but in my experience those who say they are on some more enlightened ground than Calvinism and Arminianism, are always Arminian at very least, and more often semi-Pelagian. (Though I do certainly believe that you are not Armenian ). It is also a common error to suggest that Arminian doctrine and Calvinist doctrine are "extremes" They are simply two doctrines of Soteriology that are diametrically opposed to one another. Even if you agree with some points of each, that doesn't make for some mystical middle ground, it simply caters to confusion caused by the logical errors in such an approach.

I would like to encourage you to study what Calvinism and Arminianism actually teach instead of just placing your own preconceived notions over it. It is a common error of the Arminian and semi-Pelagian to look at hyper-Calvinism (which is not Calvinism at all!) and try to paint it as Calvinism. This is not an honest way to deal with the subject, however. I'm happy to recommend some reading if you are interested. You may in the end, choose (of your own will! lol) to vehemently reject Calvinist doctrine, but at least then you would do so with a proper understanding of the doctrines.

Oh, I agree not all fall into the hyper-Calvinsim. Unfortunately my eldest brother does. As a result of his doctrinal stands, he is not welcome in my or my other brother's life. We don't tolerate his operation as a meddlesome busybody in other men's matters in his attempts to help us when we reject his options.

BTW, I don't have a puny view of my creator. He is even more amazing in that even with giving man free will and dominion on earth, His ultimate plan will still come to pass exactly as His prophets foretold. That is a more amazing view of Yah then the Calvinistic view. He has foreknowledge of the course of events despite our free will. He knows all possible futures.

He didn't have to come to our rescue because of His failure. The need for a savior was part of the plan from the beginning. He is showing us that we need to follow His way because our way doesn't work. Not even the angels when they do things their way will work. The ages since creation are just object lessions for future ages to come. Now His laws are how He maintains His influence. He predestined the consequences of failure to follow His will.

He leads as opposed to rules. There is a big difference. Those that try to rule on earth will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. It is those that serve on earth that will be the greatest. That is being godly. He is the good shepard that leads the flock, not a cattle driver.

 

[desmalia]

Oh, I agree not all fall into the hyper-Calvinsim. Unfortunately my eldest brother does. As a result of his doctrinal stands, he is not welcome in my or my other brother's life. We don't tolerate his operation as a meddlesome busybody in other men's matters in his attempts to help us when we reject his options.

I'm sorry to hear that. Honestly, I'm the only Calvinist in my entire family, but it doesn't really cause friction for us.

BTW, I don't have a puny view of my creator. He is even more amazing in that even with giving man free will and dominion on earth, His ultimate plan will still come to pass exactly as His prophets foretold. That is a more amazing view of Yah then the Calvinistic view.

Actually that is in agreement with Calvinism, the one difference being that we don't see man as autonomous. We all have a will and freedom to follow that will, but it is not free without limits.

He has foreknowledge of the course of events despite our free will. He knows all possible futures.

That view is called Molinism. (You probably already knew that, but thought I'd mention it anyway.)

He didn't have to come to our rescue because of His failure. The need for a savior was part of the plan from the beginning.

Agreed.

He is showing us that we need to follow His way because our way doesn't work. Not even the angels when they do things their way will work. The ages since creation are just object lessions for future ages to come. Now His laws are how He maintains His influence. He predestined the consequences of failure to follow His will.

I'm not sure I completely follow what you're suggesting here.

God is holy and perfect and just and merciful, etc. etc. and all of creation exists for Him to express the fullness of Himself. His laws come from His very nature and so they are glorious. He doesn't need to maintain His influence on His creation; it is subject to Him. Yes, he certainly uses particular means to communicate with us (ie. Scripture) and circumstances to sanctify us. But the key is not just that His way is better, but that it is the ONLY way. We are hopelessly fallen and cannot save ourselves. That is 100% His work.

He leads as opposed to rules. There is a big difference.

He does both.

Those that try to rule on earth will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Right. Because that is self seeking, essentially idolatry of self in contrast to worshiping the Lord.

It is those that serve on earth that will be the greatest. That is being godly. He is the good shepard that leads the flock, not a cattle driver.

Agreed. But I don't think it's a good idea to try and separate that from His kingship. He does rule over all. The problem here may be if you're equating that to a corrupt human dictator. Obviously that is not a picture of the Lord's kingship.

As believers we are to submit in service to the Lord and one another. But that is not because God has submitted Himself to us. Christ submitted, and submits to the authority of the Father and that is a beautiful example for us. But our submission and obedience are not an end in themselves. God is the greatest, most wonderful being ever, and so it is for our best to serve and submit to Him. He does desire that place of rule and authority in our lives because He is the best, and thus, the best for us.

 

[Yahu]

Actually that is in agreement with Calvinism, the one difference being that we don't see man as autonomous. We all have a will and freedom to follow that will, but it is not free without limits.

I would disagree here. We have free will without limits BUT we have to face the consequences of those acts against His will. We will reap what we sow. If we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption. That is what I mean by His law is how He maintains His influence. If we sow to the flesh, it opens the door to the enemy to bring about those consequences because it is based on His law.

IMO what is predestined is that we, 'the elect', all transform into the image of Yeshua but few actually achieve that in this physical lifetime. Too few Christians understand the concepts of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification or the salvation of the spirit, soul and body. The salvation of the spirit is a one time event. The salvation of the soul, sanctification is a life long process of spiritual growth. The glorification is the salvation of the body at the resurrection and the eternal rewards granted based on how far you progressed in the sanctification process. It is by following His will for our life verses our flesh that is that growth process, our sanctification.

Salvation is just the beginning. There will be many christians that will crawl into the kingdom as spiritual babies because they didn't progress far into spiritual growth.

I see Calvinism as a gateway doctrine into many other truly evil doctrines like 'Kingdom Now'. It also justifies spiritual babies to run around slapping other babies for being babies.

I also disagree with the first assumption of Calvinism, the total depravity of man. Adam did NOT eat of the tree of EVIL. It was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. That allowed us to make a choice of whether we follow the will of Yah (good) or the flesh (evil). Our nature does not allow us to always choose good without His guidance. We can't foresee the consequences of those choices.

 

[Yahu]

Agreed. But I don't think it's a good idea to try and separate that from His kingship. He does rule over all. The problem here may be if you're equating that to a corrupt human dictator. Obviously that is not a picture of the Lord's kingship.

That is because we generally don't understand His concept of 'kingship'. The paleo-hebrew word picture for 'king' is 'the open hand of authority (shepard's staff) over the waters'. 'Waters' in Hebrew is a symbol of 'peoples'. Moses is the biblical type and shadow of a 'king'. He is a leader that people follow due to the righteousness of his actions, not as a dictator.

 

[welshman]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject (while I do not consider myself an expert by any means) and simply cannot accept that an "all-loving God" picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who go to hell. Why on earth would God want all to come to repentance when He has already pre-determined it that for those who are lost; it is absolutely impossible to do so. It is like an older sibling bullying and taunting his younger brother or sister with a lolly-pop by holding it just above the height at which they can reach.

Cruel, absurd, un-loving and un-scriptural in my humble opinion.

 

[Yahu]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject (while I do not consider myself an expert by any means) and simply cannot accept that an "all-loving God" picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who go to hell. Why on earth would God want all to come to repentance when He has already pre-determined it that for those who are lost; it is absolutely impossible to do so. It is like an older sibling bullying and taunting his younger brother or sister with a lolly-pop by holding it just above the height at which they can reach.

Cruel, absurd, un-loving and un-scriptural in my humble opinion.

Finally someone else that sees the evil in the Calvinistic doctrines.

 

[Albion]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject (while I do not consider myself an expert by any means) and simply cannot accept that an "all-loving God" picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who go to hell. Why on earth would God want all to come to repentance when He has already pre-determined it that for those who are lost; it is absolutely impossible to do so. It is like an older sibling bullying and taunting his younger brother or sister with a lolly-pop by holding it just above the height at which they can reach.

Yes, but the opposite argument is as compelling.

God is all-loving, but he's also all-powerful and omniscient. If he doesn't pick and choose, he's leaving parts of his creation to chance. That would mean he ISN'T in charge.

And we? We are both sinners AND ignorant. If anyone says we can figure out what we are supposed to do to merit God's favor, he ought to read the posts on CF for a day. We humans are in disagreement about everything, and we all think we've done as good a job of figuring out life as possible.

IOW, we need someone in charge, and it can't be us. Sure, he calls us to to right, but no one can do more than muddle through. We are sinners who don't merit salvation on account of our doings. So if he decides to save anyone at all, he's saving someone who hasn't earned it. Isn't that love?

Does he have to love every sinner in order to show love? If so, why hold us to any kind of standard at all?...everyone deserves hell but God's supposed to give them a "pass?"

 

[Aslansbud]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject (while I do not consider myself an expert by any means) and simply cannot accept that an "all-loving God" picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who go to hell. Why on earth would God want all to come to repentance when He has already pre-determined it that for those who are lost; it is absolutely impossible to do so. It is like an older sibling bullying and taunting his younger brother or sister with a lolly-pop by holding it just above the height at which they can reach.

Cruel, absurd, un-loving and un-scriptural in my humble opinion.

An all-powerful omniscient Creator who transcend time and space has 'fore-knowledge' of His creatures with self-apparent freewill. "He knows the end from the beginning." [Rev 1:8] That is why He says in Genesis, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated."

 

[Faith.Man]

An all-powerful omniscient Creator who transcend time and space has 'fore-knowledge' of His creatures with self-apparent freewill. "He knows the end from the beginning." [Rev 1:8] That is why He says in Genesis, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated."

This is a hard concept for some to accept. But that doesn't make it less true. It's all about God's sovereignty.

 

[Albion]

This is a hard concept for some to accept. But that doesn't make it less true.

Really? All he said was that God has foreknowledge. We all know that, and it doesn't answer anything about freewill vs. election.

 

[Yahu]

Really? All he said was that God has foreknowledge. We all know that, and it doesn't answer anything about freewill vs. election.

Foreknowledge of election and freewill can coexist. Yah KNOWS who will follow Him with their freewill. Thus He can write their names in His books at the beginning of time.

 

[Albion]

Foreknowledge of election and freewill can coexist. Yah KNOWS who will follow Him with their freewill. Thus He can write their names in His books at the beginning of time.

But the question of whether he foreordains is not settled merely because he sees the future. He is capable of writing in the book of life however he wishes, but we are still left not knowing if he has his elect or, rather, if everyone is on his own to freely choose Christ.

 

[Yahu]

But the question of whether he foreordains is not settled merely because he sees the future. He is capable of writing in the book of life however he wishes, but we are still left not knowing if he has his elect or, rather, if everyone is on his own to freely choose Christ.

Well we know that there are tares in the field. IMO he calls the wheat while the tares are for the fire. How much of the wheat is destroyed because of the tares? Can a tare become wheat?

Freewill of the wheat can coexist with the proclaimed judgement on the tares. What are the tares but the physical offspring of the evil one sown in the same field? Can they even come to repentance because of their lineage? Do ancestral spirits prevent them from hearing a call from Yah? Are they doomed because of generational curses to destroy the offspring of the wicked?

 

[BBAS 64]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject (while I do not consider myself an expert by any means) and simply cannot accept that an "all-loving God" picks and chooses who goes to heaven and who go to hell..

Good Day, Welshman

Not by him who runneth, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God

.

Why on earth would God want all to come to repentance.

Presupposes that is what God desires, or worse God is forever sad and unable to get the desires of his heart and exists in misery and unforfilled.


.

when He has already pre-determined it that for those who are lost; it is absolutely impossible to do so. It is like an older sibling bullying and taunting his younger brother or sister with a lolly-pop by holding it just above the height at which they can reach.

Cruel, absurd, un-loving and un-scriptural in my humble opinion.

We all start out lost..... we love him because (result) he first loves us (God acts first).

I will remove the heart of Stone, and give them a new heart (God's action), and (result) they will be my people.


Unbeliveing unregearte men hate God and any thing to do with God and are forever his enemy(none seek no not one, they love sin). Kids love lollypops as a general rule so your comparision is flawed as is your conclusion.

In addition you assume love as defined by you, agrees with God's definition

In Him,

Bill

 

[cubanito]

To a post-modernist fundamentalist CalvArminian like me this is all laughable. I spent 2 and a half YEARS studying Titus 1:12-13 before I came to my current understanding. I believe that Paul here singles out Eupeminedes as a Prophet of the gentiles for predicting that logic will fail. Long live mathematics, for it allows God to be God. Read about the continuum hypothesis, the mathematical proof of God by Kurt Godell and the Turing machine. That and a smattering of Quantum mechanics and Einsteinian relativity later might just get you to understand that God is Sovereign, mand has free will, and it is logic that does not work.

TGFITU, the Christian formerly known as JR

 

[welshman]

Without going into the finer details of what you said; what I will say is that I have never, ever heard a Calvinist preach the Gospel and say what they really believe i.e. that God chooses who He wants in heaven and those He chooses to send to hell.

Good Day, Welshman

Not by him who runneth, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God

.

Presupposes that is what God desires, or worse God is forever sad and unable to get the desires of his heart and exists in misery and unforfilled.


.

We all start out lost..... we love him because (result) he first loves us (God acts first).

I will remove the heart of Stone, and give them a new heart (God's action), and (result) they will be my people.


Unbeliveing unregearte men hate God and any thing to do with God and are forever his enemy(none seek no not one, they love sin). Kids love lollypops as a general rule so your comparision is flawed as is your conclusion.

In addition you assume love as defined by you, agrees with God's definition

In Him,

Bill