The Elect.

[Aslansbud]

Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

I was brought up Calvinistic, so this topic always came up in discussions about the sovereign will of God and free will.

The illustration I chose to grab onto, and there are many, and if it helps, thank God. If not, let it be. - We sit on a train watching the countryside pass by scene after scene as God from heaven sees all scenes "at the same time".

Premises:
God knows the end from the beginning. -timeless
God knows those who (will) accept Him. -foreknowledge.

Without freewill reduces God to an evil tyrant.
God gives mankind an age of grace where we work out our salvation through Christ.

Check out the gospel: creation.com/good-news/

 

[Albion]

The question concerning election is not whether or not one understands it but whether or not the Bible teaches it.

Thank you. It's nice to witness--every once in a while--someone bringing us back to the point that matters.

If it's Biblical, that settles it, all the musings and guesswork aside.

If, indeed, the Bible teaches election (or any other doctrine), then one is obligated to believe it. The doctrine of election includes a number of areas: Israel is elect (Deut. 7:6); angels are elect (1 Tim. 5:21); the Levitical priests were elect (Deut. 18:5); Jeremiah the prophet was elect (Jer. 1:5); and believers are elect (Eph. 1:4).

Election may be defined as “that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation.”

The Moody Handbook of Theology.

Now, a personal speculation that I wouldn't base my answer on but still think about. How can we talk as though every man has an equal opportunity to respond to the Gospel and so be saved? We humans come in so many different packages. Some are living in countries where the name of Jesus has never been heard. Others grow up in cultures where it is constantly reviled. Some are so uneducated as to have little chance of comprehending the Gospel. Meanwhile, others of us live comfortable lives and are raised from birth to be Christians. And so on.

Even the difference between being male or female is said by scientists to affect the way we process information. So the idea that we are all equal with equal freewill and equal opportunity appears ridiculous on its face.

 

[seeingeyes]

Without freewill reduces God to an evil tyrant.

Does it? Why?

 

[Albion]

Does it? Why?

Because it would mean that God does not operate according to our contemporary social standards--individualism, democracy, equal treatment before the law, tolerance for diversity, etc.

 

[seeingeyes]

Because it would mean that God does not operate according to our contemporary social standards--individualism, democracy, equal treatment before the law, tolerance for diversity, etc.

How uncivilized! Maybe God needs a revolution.


Or maybe he's got something up his sleeve that's 'gooder' than we realize.

 

[berachah]

God determined that the destiny for anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, is eternal life. We have to make the decison for Christ ourselves and the minute we do that we come into the promise that is set aside for those that believe and accept Jesus.

God desires that we all come into the declared promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

 

[Adoniram]

The problem I have always had with the "elect" crowd is that, since believers are elected to salvation, that then means that unbelievers are elected to hell. I inform them that the former is in Scripture - the latter is not.

Well, what does the Scripture say?

Rom. 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

By this passage (vrs. 21 & 22), it would appear that God chooses some for honor, and does indeed choose some for destruction. Verse 16 indicates that our will doesn't even come into play. It's totally of God, who shows us mercy. We were spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), unable to respond to anything (Eph. 4:18). What response can a dead person give? But by God's mercy and of His own choosing, we are born again, of the spirit, as Jesus tried to explain to Nicodemus (John 3); made alive spiritually (Eph 2:4-5). God orchestrates our lives, bringing us to a decision point, and quickening our spirits, he opens our eyes such that we actually have no choice but to believe. Praise God for that.

But He does choose some for dishonor and destruction. Some are destined for hell. This is indeed a hard teaching. Is God unrighteous? No. (vrs. 14) God is sovereign and He has His purposes (vrs 11). Who are we to question (vrs. 20)? He does so to show His glory and mercy to those whom He calls (vrs. 23). Let us always be thankful for His mercy to us.

So, in light of the fact that it is God that chooses and that He has already done so, even before people are born (vrs. 11), does that mean that we have no need to spread the gospel? No, it doesn't. We should never stop witnessing, because we may be the instrument by which He has chosen to extend mercy to another.

 

[Albion]

So, in light of the fact that it is God that chooses and that He has already done so, even before people are born (vrs. 11), does that mean that we have no need to spread the gospel? No, it doesn't. We should never stop witnessing, because we may be the instrument by which He has chosen to extend mercy to another.

This is a valuable point. Many of the arguments used against election are based upon offhand observations. "Why bother to evangelize?" is one of them. Another is "You can sin as you please and it doesn't matter." Any discussion of this topic has to avoid these cliches based upon uninformed speculation.

 

[Adoniram]

Another is "You can sin as you please and it doesn't matter." Any discussion of this topic has to avoid these cliches based upon uninformed speculation.

Indeed. That line of thinking is in error. There is a line from an old commercial: "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature." Simply put, you can't fool God the Father.

Gal. 6
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Most Christians have one or two sinful things in their lives that they struggle with mightily. I know I do. But the Holy Spirit is there to convict them, letting them know they are in the wrong, and helping with their desire to change those practices. Paul said "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." (Rom. 7:19) His remorse is evident as he says "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:24-25) The key is that God places in their hearts the desire to change, to abandon such practices.

That is why I wonder about those who call themselves "gay Christians." To continue in that practice believing they will find favor with God is just so contrary to what the Bible teaches. Still, I know there are Christians who, considering themselves to be homosexual, have abandoned the lifestyle. Praise God for them.

Sorry, that went a bit off topic.

 

[Faith.Man]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [NASB]

Holy scripture says it all for me. Paul doesn't say in Ephesians we freely choose to have faith, or our works produce faith. No, we are saved by His sovereign will, by His grace and mercy we have saving faith. It is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God so that no one can boast their free will brought them to a position of faith through their free will works. To prove our faith to others and ourselves, God prepared beforehand, before our existence, works for us to perform or go through to produce the type of Christian we will become. That's what Holy Scriptures say.

 

[Yahu]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

Nope. Many are called. That doesn't suggest that everyone called answers.

 

[Yahu]

Which is sovereign? The free will of humanity or the will of the Creator of the universe?

But Yah gave dominion over the earth to man. He yielded that dominion to us. As a sovereign God, He has the option to yield that dominion to us and grant us free will. We are NOT puppets doing His will. He requires us to be a willing vessel to operate through us.

 

[Yahu]

How do you guys in this sub-forum feel about it? I don't particularly like the idea, as I feel it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are a significant number of people who do.

So what do you folks think? Is salvation predetermined?

There is a BIG difference between foreknowledge and predetermination. As I see it Yah is outside of linear time. He KNOWS the end from the beginning and is able to write the names of the Elect from the beginning. That does NOT imply that He forces them to be the Elect.

He predetermines the laws and the consequences while allowing us free will to follow Him. He just foreknows who will follow Him.

Foreknowledge and free will of man can coexist.

 

[Yahu]

Well, what does the Scripture say?

Rom. 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

By this passage (vrs. 21 & 22), it would appear that God chooses some for honor, and does indeed choose some for destruction. Verse 16 indicates that our will doesn't even come into play. It's totally of God, who shows us mercy. We were spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), unable to respond to anything (Eph. 4:18). What response can a dead person give? But by God's mercy and of His own choosing, we are born again, of the spirit, as Jesus tried to explain to Nicodemus (John 3); made alive spiritually (Eph 2:4-5). God orchestrates our lives, bringing us to a decision point, and quickening our spirits, he opens our eyes such that we actually have no choice but to believe. Praise God for that.

But He does choose some for dishonor and destruction. Some are destined for hell. This is indeed a hard teaching. Is God unrighteous? No. (vrs. 14) God is sovereign and He has His purposes (vrs 11). Who are we to question (vrs. 20)? He does so to show His glory and mercy to those whom He calls (vrs. 23). Let us always be thankful for His mercy to us.

So, in light of the fact that it is God that chooses and that He has already done so, even before people are born (vrs. 11), does that mean that we have no need to spread the gospel? No, it doesn't. We should never stop witnessing, because we may be the instrument by which He has chosen to extend mercy to another.

I don't have a problem with some being destined for destruction. If you understand that those of angelic descent that were born in disobedience are the tares and are not capable of redemption it becomes much clearer.

That can also coexist with wheat that has free will to follow Him or not. Some that are called have the seed stolen by the fowls of the air.

 

[desmalia]

But Yah gave dominion over the earth to man. He yielded that dominion to us. As a sovereign God, He has the option to yield that dominion to us and grant us free will. We are NOT puppets doing His will. He requires us to be a willing vessel to operate through us.

So are you saying that God has the ability to hand His sovereignty over to us (at least for certain situations)?

 

[Yahu]

So are you saying that God has the ability to hand His sovereignty over to us (at least for certain situations)?

I am saying He did hand dominion over to man in Eden or He is a liar and we KNOW He isn't a liar. Man has dominion over the earth but generally yields it to the enemy spiritual forces due to deception. Yeshua had to come in the form of a man and live a perfect life to reclaim the right of dominion over the earth. Now He has the right to open the sealed deed and reclaim the ownership. That is the sealed book opened in Revelation. That deed is opened before the judgement that falls on the wicked and Yeshua sets up His physical reign.

For Yah to operate here now, He operates through a willing vessel that serves Him. The Lord's Prayer prays that He has His will on earth as He has in Heaven. Why would Yeshua pray that if Yah already had His will here? He has dominion in Heaven but to have dominion on earth it is by operating through us as a willing vessel.

I am neither Calvinist or Armenian but dead center between the two. It is a common tactic of the enemy to take the position of Yah and divide it to two polar extremes that fight anyone not on their own extreme. This is seen in Galations in the conflict between the 'bondage to law' verses the 'greasy grace' camps while the correct position is dead center being led by the Spirit while having the law as your tutor for righteousness and having grace were we fail. The enemy is on the extremes. In that conflict in Galations, the 'bondage to law' camp is controlled by the anti-christ spirit while the rebellion against the law camp is controlled by HaSatan.

 

[Albion]

There is a BIG difference between foreknowledge and predetermination. As I see it Yah is outside of linear time. He KNOWS the end from the beginning and is able to write the names of the Elect from the beginning. That does NOT imply that He forces them to be the Elect.

He predetermines the laws and the consequences while allowing us free will to follow Him. He just foreknows who will follow Him.

Foreknowledge and free will of man can coexist.

All of that would be correct if free will were also correct. But then we come to the words of scripture and have to set aside such reasoning.

 

[Yahu]

All of that would be correct if free will were also correct. But then we come to the words of scripture and have to set aside such reasoning.

Only if you are deceived into following Calvinistic interpretations. The Calvinistic doctrines removes all accountability for the consequences of sin. They are just Yah's puppets with no accountability.

Every time I see the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven' and the Knights Templar are yelling 'God Wills It', I think of Calvinists and their ridiculous doctrines of predestination.

 

[Albion]

Only if you are deceived into following Calvinistic interpretations.

...or the Bible's taching.

Calvin is far from the only Christian who ever came to these conclusions, you know. But it's always fun to single out Calvin.

The Calvinistic doctrines removes all accountability for the consequences of sin.

Quite the contrary.

They are just Yah's puppets with no accountability.

Now I know for sure that you neither understand Calvin or the concept of predestination. One thing that you could do is read the earlier posts which specifically pointed out that what you wrote here is a misunderstanding of predestination.

Every time I see the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven' and the Knights Templar are yelling 'God Wills It', I think of Calvinists and their ridiculous doctrines of predestination.

So...God does not have a will? Or is it that he is totally removed from human affairs?

Surely you do not think that the Knights Templar were flaming Calvinists.

 

[Yahu]

Surely you do not think that the Knights Templar were flaming Calvinists.

Of course NOT. The knights Templar predate Calvin. It is the concept that man claiming to be doing Yah's will are actually in His will, that is the problem.

It is the concept that Yah predestines the actions of the elect therefore they being elect must be doing His will while even the Elect have the free will to follow the guidance of the Spirit or follow the flesh. We will face the consequences of those choices.