The Elect?

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Here's a question ive heard in the forum about predestination, and how God chooses us, im a bit confused on a part of it however. Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around, does this mean that even if youve lived a life for Christ and giveing everything to serve God and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior ect you can still go to hell. because you were not elected. Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

Im sorry if its confuseing. Or some how offensive its not meant to be. or very incorrect, im just lack knowledge, in this subject.

 

[HiredGoon]

A person cannot truly live a life for Christ and give everything to serve God and accept Christ as Lord and Savior ect unless they are elect.

Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

That's right.

 

[Beoga]

Here's a question ive heard in the forum about predestination, and how God chooses us, im a bit confused on a part of it however. Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around, does this mean that even if youve lived a life for Christ and giveing everything to serve God and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior ect you can still go to hell. because you were not elected. Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

Im sorry if its confuseing. Or some how offensive its not meant to be. or very incorrect, im just lack knowledge, in this subject.

scripture is quite clear that all who believe will be saved. So if one lives a life of complete devotion to God, they are among the elect. So, no person living a life devoted to God will go to hell. There may be some though, that have an outer devotion to God, but it is not genuine.
The unregenerate cannot please God, seek Him, or do what is righteous because of their sin, so they cannot truly live a life of devotion to God.

 

[Radagast]

... Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around ...

Both are true, in a sense. Saying "before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ" is a good way of putting it, IMHO.

This hymn expresses it well.

-- Radagast

 

[StAnselm]

This hymn expresses it well.

Yes, it has a good balance. Though I wouldn't like to say, "Thou were long beforehand with my soul"...

 

[BBAS 64]

Here's a question ive heard in the forum about predestination, and how God chooses us, im a bit confused on a part of it however. Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around, does this mean that even if youve lived a life for Christ and giveing everything to serve God and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior ect you can still go to hell.

Good Day, Nova

The question is a good one consider the process by which one comes to belief:

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Out side the work of God a person will never belive. We do not seek, desire God with out the work of God.

Because you were not elected. Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

Im sorry if its confuseing. Or some how offensive its not meant to be. or very incorrect, im just lack knowledge, in this subject.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



He had chosen:

eklegomai

Thayer Definition:

1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one’s self

1a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

1b) choosing one for an office

1c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

1c1) i.e. the Israelites

1d) of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (Jam_2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only

Having predestinated :

proorizō

Thayer Definition:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand


Hope that helps, ask as many questions as you like

For His Glory Alone!!

Bill

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Here's a question ive heard in the forum about predestination, and how God chooses us, im a bit confused on a part of it however. Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around, does this mean that even if youve lived a life for Christ and giveing everything to serve God and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior ect you can still go to hell. because you were not elected. Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

Im sorry if its confuseing. Or some how offensive its not meant to be. or very incorrect, im just lack knowledge, in this subject.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there will be people who will serve God but were never elect. There are plenty of people who serve God not out of a graditude of salvation, but to merit their salvation. Part of the ordo soludis is that God regenerates a person. Regeneration when God allows a person to see their utter hopelessness apart from Christ. It is the point in which a person recognizes that nothing they can do will make things right with God.

As Matthew 7 says, there will be many who will meet Christ in that day and they will talk to him about their works, not His. I think a sign of true, saving faith is that a person thinks on the work of Christ, and not their own. When I see Jesus, I want to thank Him for His works and His obediance, not mine.

So not everyone who serves God is elect, but everyone who clings to Christ is elect, whether they acknowledge that election or not.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there will be people who will serve God but were never elect. There are plenty of people who serve God not out of a graditude of salvation, but to merit their salvation. Part of the ordo soludis is that God regenerates a person. Regeneration when God allows a person to see their utter hopelessness apart from Christ. It is the point in which a person recognizes that nothing they can do will make things right with God.

Maybe im incorrect but, if a person accept Christ as Lord and Savior, then they have salvation, some people may fall in serving God through out there walk but would you not say that salvation is still there. I mean all God says for us to recieve salvation is to believe in Christ and to repent and ask forgiveness.

 

[philN]

Maybe im incorrect but, if a person accept Christ as Lord and Savior, then they have salvation, some people may fall in serving God through out there walk but would you not say that salvation is still there. I mean all God says for us to recieve salvation is to believe in Christ and to repent and ask forgiveness.

Exactly. Salvation cannot be lost. However, there are some people who will serve God and even outwardly seem like a follower of Christ, but will not actually be regenerate, in which case they would be judged. Judas is a good example of this. He walked with Jesus, he went out with the other disciples, and yet in the end, his faith proved to be illegitamite (sort of the like the parable of the sower: there are different kinds of faith). I think it is these people - "the seeds on the rocks" - that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7.

 

[rnmomof7]

Here's a question ive heard in the forum about predestination, and how God chooses us, im a bit confused on a part of it however. Calvinism says that God chooses us and not the other way around, does this mean that even if youve lived a life for Christ and giveing everything to serve God and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior ect you can still go to hell. because you were not elected. Or does it mean that before we are born God chooses who will accept Christ. For example if a person spent years being Non-Christian and wollowing in sin, and they come to know Christ, and although the person may think it would be them sho choose God but in reality he choose us to be Christian before we were born.

Im sorry if its confuseing. Or some how offensive its not meant to be. or very incorrect, im just lack knowledge, in this subject.

I think you need to know that God will never turn away anyone that comes to Him .

The question that Calvinism addresses is who will choose to come and why .
What does the Bible tell us about men?



Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth,there is none that seeketh after God.


Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Romans goes on to teach us how the unsaved carnal man behaves.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


But some would argue that a man hearing the gospel can choose to come .

But what does the word tell us?

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil

So how is some can hear?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

So my brother God caste his vote for you before you cast your vote for him.



Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.


Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Unregenerate man prefers his way to Gods way, he can not please God or seek God.. he will NEVER seek after God unless God seeks him first..

I love this verse from Romans it speaks to my salvation

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

 

[Zenaide]

Dunno if I agree with the whole elect thing... If God chooses us, the why we here since we are already predistened? Just does not seem right. Freedom of choice, something God gave us freely. Read story tellers story! Really good, anywho. If what you say about predistination is true, then we have no choices. ugh anyone see where I am going? Because I'm not quite sure what to say...

 

[rnmomof7]

Dunno if I agree with the whole elect thing... If God chooses us, the why we here since we are already predistened? Just does not seem right. Freedom of choice, something God gave us freely. Read story tellers story! Really good, anywho. If what you say about predistination is true, then we have no choices. ugh anyone see where I am going? Because I'm not quite sure what to say...

The bible is clear that if a man seeks God it is because God has acted on the mans heart first .
Even God does not have totally free will. Men want what God does not have.

Wouldn't it seem right to give the glory to God for story tellers conversion and not him?

Most of us have been raised to worship at the altar of free will and choices

The fact is that all choices are made within a restricted set of circumstances


A man jumping off the empire state building can not exercise free will half way down.


Did you chose your sex? Did your chose your parents? Did you choose your country or city of birth? Did you chose your intelligence?


All of these things were predestined by your creator


He set up for you that parameters of the decisions and choices that will be available to you.


He could have had you born in India to Hindu parents in a low class. You never would have had an opportunity to go to school or to make the life choices you make today. You may never have heard the gospel to be saved.


Acts 17
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.



All of our choices are governed by our preferences. Our preferences are part of that same creative process of the Father. Man will always choose according to those preferences.

Have you read the twin studies?

I read one that blew me away


Two brothers separated at birth. both had the same IQ, Both the same level of education, both loved firefighting (one was a professional and one a volunteer), both married women similar in appearance and both wives were named Jean. Both men had the same number of kids...and both drove red cars

Now these studies are done to show us the effects of genetics.

I know the designer of genetics. And His name is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He is the great "I AM"

God has designed each of us in such a way that we will have preferences that will lead us to certain choices.

Because of the fall men will never seek God

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. <P>In order for man to choose Christ he must have a preference for Christ. But the fall removed that preference. Man is spiritually dead.He can not choose life


Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Note here that Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Man can not desire or choose what he can not see.

So God gives those that are His a New heart

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

God then gives us a heart that will desire Him.. A heart that can see Him and choose Him...

Our will was put in bondage in Eden. The will we have is the will of Adam. Only the new birth gives us a truly free will. The desire and the will to choose Christ


I find it so interesting that people resent the idea that God has foreordained our eternity. If our father so loved us to foreordain our present, how much more important is our eternity?

 

[Zenaide]

Ok, I guess that makes sense. To a degree, personally I believe it, but not completely. Very interesting belief though. Did we, as Christians, make a denomination out of this? ... probably. Maybe someday all Christians will unite together, despite personal conflicts and beliefs. Very interesting again, thanks for answer.

 

[rnmomof7]

Ok, I guess that makes sense. To a degree, personally I believe it, but not completely. Very interesting belief though. Did we, as Christians, make a denomination out of this? ... probably. Maybe someday all Christians will unite together, despite personal conflicts and beliefs. Very interesting again, thanks for answer.

Looking at the early church writings you see that the idea of Gods sovereignty( predestination) in salvation was a common belief. It became lost as the idea of the church as a type of route to salvation became the norm.

Jesus himself taught the doctrine


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


The greek word OF ( para) in this verse means" from" (the Father)



Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.