The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

[fhansen]

Grace saves because God cannot fail. He saves us before our wills ever come into play.

God doesn't fail in the big picture, having a plan and knowing the beginning from the end. But He's also not directly responsible for all the evil in the world, or He wouldn't be much of a God. The human will is involved and He did not create us to be sinners, and then blame us for being sinners and then decide to send some of us created sinners to eternal torment anyway, and the rest to heaven or He'd be even less worthy of godhood than satan.

There's a reason why Scripture tells us that God desires none to perish, knowing that some will. Or that we should pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven-because of the real possibility of it not being done. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it? Did He will Adam to eat of it?

 

[Dave L]

God doesn't fail in the big picture, having a plan and knowing the beginning from the end. But He's also not directly responsible for all the evil in the world, or He wouldn't be much of a God. The human will is involved and He did not create us to be sinners, and then blame us for being sinners and then decide to send some of us created sinners to eternal torment anyway, and the rest to heaven or He'd be even less worthy of godhood than satan.

There's a reason why Scripture tells us that God desires none to perish, knowing that some will. Or that we should pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven-because of the real possibility of it not being done. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it? Did He will Adam to eat of it?

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

 

[fhansen]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

Yes, and that highlights the problem of Sola Scriptura-and basing a theology on a verse or two.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, and that highlights the problem of Sola Scriptura-and basing a theology on a verse or two.

“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6)

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

“Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lamentations 3:38)

“For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: But evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.” (Micah 1:12)

“For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?” (Ezekiel 14:21)

“There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1–5)

“The LORD said to him [Moses], “Who gave a mouth to man, or who makes a person mute or deaf or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” (Exodus 4:11)

 

[Tra Phull]

See post 256

 

[Dave L]

See post 256

What are you trying to say by it?

 

[renniks]

Believe me, it's not a cop out. It just gets annoying when I'm the only posting scripture.

Posting scripture with no explanation or interpretation.
Ok, I can do that too:
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. John 7:17

 

[renniks]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Again, how does this verse support your view that we don't have free will? Are you trying to say Christians can't sin?

 

[fhansen]

“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6)

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

“Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lamentations 3:38)

“For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: But evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.” (Micah 1:12)

“For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?” (Ezekiel 14:21)

“There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1–5)

“The LORD said to him [Moses], “Who gave a mouth to man, or who makes a person mute or deaf or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” (Exodus 4:11)

And your understanding is not how Christians have understood God's nature and will for centuries. Because that means that satan himself, is less evil than God. Why should we trust a god who directly wills and causes every torture and rape of a child, every beheading by ISIS, every act of genocide, the holocaust? Why should we think that heaven would be any better than hell? What's to trust in that? What is good about a god who wills the ultimate evil of eternal torment to some poor creature who has absolutely no choice at all in the matter- never did! I wouldn't bother serving a god like that-your worst enemy is morally superior. There'd really be nothing to serve.

 

[Dave L]

And your understanding is not how Christians have understood God's nature and will for centuries. Because that means that satan himself, is less evil than God. Why should we trust a god who directly wills and causes every torture and rape of a child, every beheading by ISIS, every act of genocide, the holocaust? Why should we think that heaven would be any better than hell? What's to trust in that? What is good about a god who wills the ultimate evil of eternal torment to some poor creature who has absolutely no choice at all in the matter- never did! I wouldn't bother serving a god like that-your worst enemy is morally superior. There'd really be nothing to serve.

God created Satan and keeps him alive.

 

[Dave L]

Again, how does this verse support your view that we don't have free will? Are you trying to say Christians can't sin?

We are not free to sin.

 

[fhansen]

God created Satan and keeps him alive.

Satan fell of his own volition.

 

[Dave L]

Satan fell of his own volition.

True, but God controls our wills with the reasons we base our choices on.

 

[Tra Phull]

My point in post 256 is that it is the DISCIPLES that Jesus talked about when He said "ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you"

The context is primarily THE DISCIPLES, it is not a proof-text against the idea that all believers in all times do not choose Christ. They do.

 

[renniks]

We are not free to sin.

But we do sin. So I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

[renniks]

True, but God controls our wills with the reasons we base our choices on.

What does that mean? It sounds like gobbledygook.

 

[Dave L]

What does that mean? It sounds like gobbledygook.

Every choice you ever made was based on a reason God used to solicit your choice according to his plan for you.

 

[renniks]

Every choice you ever made was based on a reason God used to solicit your choice according to his plan for you.

Still doesn't make any sense.

 

[Dave L]

But we do sin. So I'm not sure what you mean by that.

If we sin, it's part of God's plan. David and Bathsheba were instrumental in producing Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Still doesn't make any sense.

Give it some prayerful thought, it will.