Halbhh

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I have answers to the light problem in Gen 1. But, most might not be ready for it. Unless, your stance on Gen 1:1 changes, you are definitely not ready for my answer there.:cool:

Since it's one of the most interesting of all questions for literalists like me, let me discuss it with you!

I think after the long time that passed during verse 1, billions of years, that the light that happens on the first day in verse 3-5 is the sun, since it starts the day/night cycle, clearly in the wording, and that means the sky is clouded so that the sun, moon and stars are not visible yet from the surface, exactly as it so happens mainstream science simulation shows would be the case.

I think day 1 is a literal, actual real day, as are all the others. Day 4, on which the sun, moon and stars become visible, in the vision, is the first day which has clear enough skies so that they are visible in the vision.

Of course, I think these days I think are actual days, seen in the vision, are widely spaced in time apart from each other.

God narrated to Moses in the visions the wordings, such as “Let there be light,” and "“Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” (of course not in english nor paraphrased, heh heh)

In order that Moses would not be 100% unable to understand anything at all about what he was seeing in the vision. Instead, he then had a very slight understanding of what he was seeing. We know that in scripture, it is normal that the person receiving a vision only understands some of it, or even little.
 
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mindlight

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ah! You mean to have a scientific approach to answer the non-spiritual questions like how old are meteorites, moon rocks, certain old parts of Earth, and such?

That's indeed a science question to most believers, but it sounded in the OP as if you meant to prove one particular doctrine about Genesis 1 over other viewpoints other believers have, of which there are more than just 2 mainstream views (and also about which has no ultimate importance once one does believe in God the Creator), among real believers who know Christ will come again and that we will live forever. If you aren't trying to just prove one idea against another idea believers have, so that instead you are only discussing just the science of dating old rocks, that would be interesting, but wouldn't that belong in the Physical Sciences forum?

Also, since some of the questions your links point to are involved, wouldn't it be better to get a clear discussion to pick just 1 for one OP, and discuss it alone, well?

I thought my OP was clearly focused on the scientific arguments I listed. I will add the text of this post to my OP to clarify that. I have assumed since this is the Christians only section of the forums that everybody here is happy with the view God did it. But yes there is a variance on how he did it. I am happy to hear the opinions of Christians only as to whether the various scientific evidences I listed are credible or not with a focus on the age of the earth.

But if the arguments are valid then a YEC position has some scientific credibility, if not then an Old Earth or TE position or day age theory etc may be better. But I would prefer to discuss the biblical evidences and positions elsewhere. This is focused on the scientific evidences listed. I hope the list is not too long but it gives people the opportunity to pick and mix the ones they are interested in. At present I have only had a genuine scientific question raised about the Carbon 14 argument.
 
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Hieronymus

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Since it's one of the most interesting of all questions for literalists like me, let me discuss it with you!

I think after the long time that passed during verse 1, billions of years, that the light that happens on the first day in verse 3-5 is the sun, since it starts the day/night cycle,
The day / night cycle started in the first verses already.
God called the light day and the dark night.
...and it had been evening, and it had been morning, the first day.
Also, the sun was put up there on day 4, so i'm not sure which texts you are using, but it can't be Genesis 1.
 
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Hieronymus

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Seems you have more than one problem. :):)
I have answers to the light problem in Gen 1. But, most might not be ready for it. Unless, your stance on Gen 1:1 changes, you are definitely not ready for my answer there.:cool:
Maybe it was 'the light bearer', who apparently was God's first creature.
 
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CitizenD

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It is less clear that the mainstream scientific consensus is naturalism though...
Really?

Have you ever heard of a graduate biology program in any country (lacking a state or university enforced religion), promoting creationism or supernatural causation?
 
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DarkSoul999

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The YEC view is that basically the earth is 6-10000 years old. Answers in Genesis list 10 strong evidences for this here.

These are basically the following

#1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor
#2 Bent Rock Layers
#3 Soft Tissue in Fossils
#4 Faint Sun Paradox
#5 Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field
#6 Helium in Radioactive Rocks
#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds
#8 Short-Lived Comets
#9 Very Little Salt in the Sea
#10 DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria

How would those of you who believe in an Old Earth counter these arguments?

I don't have the energy to counter all the lies here. This is clearly a deliberate fabrication which I'm pretty sure is a grave sin. When someone pretends to be an expert despite having never read any scientific literature that absolutely qualifies as a SIN!

For example...

Carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) is a radioactive form of carbon that scientists use to date fossils. But it decays so quickly—with a half-life of only 5,730 years—that none is expected to remain in fossils after only a few hundred thousand years. Yet carbon-14 has been detected in “ancient” fossils—supposedly up to hundreds of millions of years old—ever since the earliest days of radiocarbon dating.1
The term half-life means that HALF the total quantity of a radioactive substance will decay in that time (on average). This is based on probabilities formulated from some more advanced nuclear physics equations. Decay can be exponential or non-exponential in the case of Carbon 14 decay.

It is true that only trace amounts of carbon-14 are found in paleolithic plants but it is very easy to reverse calculate the original quantities going backwards in time.

It goes through a process called radioactive beta minus decay:

Carbon 14 -> Nitrogen 14 + electron + antineutrino

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2012/06/carbon14decay.jpeg

Here is a nice example of a simple calculation that you should have learned in elementary school (outside of America. Americans are really dumb)

http://slideplayer.com/slide/598278...+start+with+a+mass+of+2.00g+of+carbon-14..jpg

The book of Genesis almost exactly correlates to the major periods of the geologic timescale as discovered by science as long as you account for the limitations in the ancient language. It doesn't need defending. If anything the excellent order practically proves that scripture is genuine. Leave it to young earth creationists to reinforce the biases of atheists....
 
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Hieronymus

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Really?

Have you ever heard of a graduate biology program in any country (lacking a state or university enforced religion), promoting creationism or supernatural causation?
Well, it is clear to me, but it is not clear to the average person.
They don't know the mainstream scientific consensus is a philosophical belief.
Naturalism = the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I'm basically skeptical because I've seen scientists re-calibrate their dating methods.
So it's not like it's perfect.
Carbon Dating Gets a Reset
.
Also stating a 5000+ year half life, when there's no actual observable evidence of that half life involves some "faith" on behalf of those who trust in the hypothesis.
.
So I reserve judgment until some definitive evidence appears.
 
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CitizenD

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Well, it is clear to me, but it is not clear to the average person.
They don't know the mainstream scientific consensus is a philosophical belief.
Naturalism = the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
So you're saying it's less clear to the public that the mainstream scientific consensus regarding naturalism is a philosophical belief?
 
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Hieronymus

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So you're saying it's less clear to the public that the mainstream scientific consensus regarding naturalism is a philosophical belief?
Yes, the public (on average)
Many believe scientific evidence leads to a naturalistic worldview, while in reality it is a presupposition.
 
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mindlight

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I don't have the energy to counter all the lies here. This is clearly a deliberate fabrication which I'm pretty sure is a grave sin. When someone pretends to be an expert despite having never read any scientific literature that absolutely qualifies as a SIN!

Or you may have misunderstood the arguments proposed or be bringing ideological blinkers of your own to the conversation. Afterall none of us are righteous not even one. But my desire in posting the OP was to test the credibility of these arguments. Thanks for focusing on a specific argument and giving me something to think about.https://answersingenesis.org/geology/carbon-14/7-carbon-14-in-fossils-coal-and-diamonds/#fn_1
The term half-life means that HALF the total quantity of a radioactive substance will decay in that time.

It is true that only trace amounts of carbon-14 are found in paleolithic plants but it is very easy to reverse calculate the original quantities going backwards in time.

It goes through a process called radioactive beta minus decay:

Carbon 14 -> Nitrogen 14 + electron + antineutrino

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2012/06/carbon14decay.jpeg

Here is a nice example of a simple calculation that you should have learned in elementary school (outside of America. Americans are really dumb)

http://slideplayer.com/slide/598278...+start+with+a+mass+of+2.00g+of+carbon-14..jpg

Right I actually understand that. The view is that after about 60000 years the decay of carbon14 to nitrogen 14 will be complete to the extent that any trace elements are pretty worthless for dating and an alternative dating scheme needs to be found.

Radiocarbon dating is generally limited to dating samples no more than 50,000 years old, as samples older than that have insufficient 14
C to be measurable. Older dates have been obtained by using special sample preparation techniques, large samples, and very long measurement times. These techniques can allow measurement of dates up to 60,000 and in some cases up to 75,000 years before the present

But if the amount of the trace element is still significant and readable after 60000 years then the probability is that it cannot be more than 60000 years old.
 
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mindlight

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Really?

Have you ever heard of a graduate biology program in any country (lacking a state or university enforced religion), promoting creationism or supernatural causation?

Within mainstream science when it comes to discussions about the Cambrian explosion or abiogenesis for instance there are few if any actual physical facts to argue on the basis of. There is a lack of fossil precursors to the fossils discovered in the Cambrian layer for instance. There is no evidence of protocells or chemical evolution of any sort. In these cases the arguments employed are not really strictly naturalistic but rather more ideological as they are done so on the basis of the conviction that the evolution hypothesis as a whole has sufficient credibility and momentum to allow self referential arguments unsupported by physical arguments to be used instead.
 
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majj27

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I'm no expert, but i'll take a quick stab.

The YEC view is that basically the earth is 6-10000 years old. Answers in Genesis list 10 strong evidences for this here.

These are basically the following

#1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor
#2 Bent Rock Layers
#3 Soft Tissue in Fossils
#4 Faint Sun Paradox
#5 Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field
#6 Helium in Radioactive Rocks
#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds
#8 Short-Lived Comets
#9 Very Little Salt in the Sea
#10 DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria

How would those of you who believe in an Old Earth counter these arguments?

In order:
1) Sediment subduction rates are only an issue if you ignore that a) organic sediments dissolve or are turned into biomass, b) sediment is not of a uniform and permanent volume but is compacted during subduction and c) some sediment winds up accreting on the continental layers as rocks. This is basically how British Columbia formed.

2) There is no requirement for strata to be globally uniform, as Hamm seems to think. Gaps and bends in strata are actually expected, as erosion, drought, and other natural processes can effect strata formation. Further, evidence from across the planet correlates across multiple measurements. This is basically a "the geological column doesn't exist" argument worded differently. And that argument fails as well.

3) Is a stretching of the truth and some falsehoods. The soft tissue was not flexible and soft when found. It softened when accidentally hydrated during the cleaning of the fossil. DNA has been found and dated from samples that are between 10,000 and 300,000 years old, which is FAR older than a YEC view would allow. And the scientist who made the discovery, Dr. Mary Schweitzer, a Christian herself, agrees on the age of the find. Basically, Hamm is distorting facts here.

4) This is just bad science. Or bad math. A 25% drop in solar output isn't a 25% drop in surface temp. Thanks to the outheating effect of being, well, a planet, it's 7%. And that is in a closed system with no feedback mechanisms, like greenhouse effects. The Earth's atmosphere was FULL of heavy greenhouse gasses for a long time, like methane.

5) Fluctuations in the magnetic field only prove a 6,000 year earth if they are constant. They are not. Also, Barnes' work doesn't hold up to evidence, and his measurements are of dipole strength, not field strength Dipole strength can vary while field strength doesn't, so his model is unpredictive and flawed.

6) Radioactive decay is complicated, but basically, the experiments that Hamm likes to point to are awful. They do not properly account for almost any variables or outside effects. Also, if the radioactive decay happened all at once, the radioactive HEAT would have as well. This would have fried the entire planet.

7) Sleight-of-hand. C14 dating is limited in how far it can go back, so if you hand it a sample from, say 650 million years ago, it'll peg at whatever the max date it find is. It's akin to driving a car with a speedometer that only goes up to 90 mph, then attaching a rocket to the back and taking that beast up to 200 mph. The speedometer will only read 80. Hamm is being disingenuous here by using the wrong tool for the job, like trying to use a jeweler's loupe to fix a leaky pipe, then claiming that jeweler's loupes don't work.

8) Assumes a) uniform age for comets, which is factually false and b) lack of a cometary replenishment. Uniform comet age is already known to be wrong, and the Kuiper Belt has been observed, where there are LOTS and LOTS of cometary replacements. And that doesn't even count the Oort Cloud, which is a hypothetical additional source.

9) Based on work by Austin and Humphreys, who drastically miscalculated sodium loss rates by omitting a lot of mechanisms which change the time scale. When they are taken into account, the numbers match current scientific models, not YEC models.

10) More sleight of hand. The SALT was 250 million years old. The bacteria has not had it's age verified, so it's unknown. Since we're still figuring out what's going on there, this is just the God of the Gaps, not proof of YEC.

It's worth noting that even if the evidence Hamm is relying on was correct and properly examined (which it isn't) none of Hamm's evidence supports a 6000 year old earth. In many cases, it supports an earth many times older. Only by introducing miracles as scientific fact does Hamm wind up at the 6000 year age. And if it's miraculous, fine. But then it by definition is not scientific proof of anything.
 
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CitizenD

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Within mainstream science when it comes to discussions about the Cambrian explosion or abiogenesis for instance there are few if any actual physical facts to argue on the basis of. There is a lack of fossil precursors to the fossils discovered in the Cambrian layer for instance. There is no evidence of protocells or chemical evolution of any sort. In these cases the arguments employed are not really strictly naturalistic but rather more ideological as they are done so on the basis of the conviction that the evolution hypothesis as a whole has sufficient credibility and momentum to allow self referential arguments unsupported by physical arguments to be used instead.

Is it ideological to refer to physical theories that have been borne out by the evidence in the rest of the scope? It is common in physics to extend the laws of physics to infer the things we have no direct evidence for, in circumstances where direct evidence for the laws of physics holding is tenuous or lacking.

A prime example of this is stellar lifecycles. We have numerous stars around us in (presumably) different stages of their lifecycles. We connect the dots by inferring a continuity and applying the laws of physics to give us a picture of stellar evolution. I wouldn't say that this is an ideological argument, since those laws of physics were established in a lab and in the field (elsewhere).

Just as I wouldn't say it's an ideological argument to extend evolution to cover the Cambrian explosion and link it to the precambrian era.
 
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mindlight

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I'm basically skeptical because I've seen scientists re-calibrate their dating methods.
So it's not like it's perfect.
Carbon Dating Gets a Reset
.
Also stating a 5000+ year half life, when there's no actual observable evidence of that half life involves some "faith" on behalf of those who trust in the hypothesis.
.
So I reserve judgment until some definitive evidence appears.

Agreed there are good reasons to be sceptical of the method. Not least because contamination and other variables cannot be measured reliably and there is no possibility of maintaining millennial long audit trails of samples let alone ones that go back 10s of thousands of years.

But the decay of Carbon 14 to Nitrogen 14+ is observable and given a good enough observation tool can be seen to be happening. The half life is a calculation based on these observable rates. So given this rate of decay we can set upper limits in time after which the technique is worthless. If you had 100g of Carbon 14 in a sample for instance after 60000 years you would only have 0.07g. The longer the time period the less there is. Give it a million years and there should be nothing at all left at all. But since Palaeolithic plants and fossils do have traces they cannot be as old as is suggested. If contamination is used as an argument against this then the technique itself is worthless and cannot be used at all outside certain controlled situations.
 
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mark kennedy

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The YEC view is that basically the earth is 6-10000 years old. Answers in Genesis list 10 strong evidences for this here.

These are basically the following

#1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor
#2 Bent Rock Layers
#3 Soft Tissue in Fossils
#4 Faint Sun Paradox
#5 Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field
#6 Helium in Radioactive Rocks
#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds
#8 Short-Lived Comets
#9 Very Little Salt in the Sea
#10 DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria

How would those of you who believe in an Old Earth counter these scientific arguments?

EDIT:

I thought my OP was clearly focused on the scientific arguments I listed. I will add the text of this post to my OP to clarify that. I have assumed since this is the Christians only section of the forums that everybody here is happy with the view God did it. But yes there is a variance on how he did it. I am happy to hear the opinions of Christians only as to whether the various scientific evidences I listed are credible or not with a focus on the age of the earth.

If the arguments are valid then a YEC position has some scientific credibility, if not then an Old Earth or TE position or day age theory may be better. But I would prefer to discuss the biblical evidences and positions elsewhere. This is focused on the scientific evidences listed. I hope the list is not too long but it gives people the opportunity to pick and mix the ones they are interested in.
Always thought the age of the universe and the earth was irrelevant myself.
 
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mindlight

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Always thought the age of the universe and the earth was irrelevant myself.

A young earth would rule out macroevolution or abiogenesis which I have spotted you arguing against sometimes. It would not matter to me if the earth was old - I would just become an Old Earth Creationist with questions about how to interpret Genesis 1-2. But if it is young this is so deeply at odds with the whole momentum of our culture today as to constitute a paradigm shift of understanding. I do not like being deceived so I do not think it is a futile exercise to try and find out what is true.
 
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mindlight

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I'm no expert, but i'll take a quick stab.



In order:
1) Sediment subduction rates are only an issue if you ignore that a) organic sediments dissolve or are turned into biomass, b) sediment is not of a uniform and permanent volume but is compacted during subduction and c) some sediment winds up accreting on the continental layers as rocks. This is basically how British Columbia formed.

2) There is no requirement for strata to be globally uniform, as Hamm seems to think. Gaps and bends in strata are actually expected, as erosion, drought, and other natural processes can effect strata formation. Further, evidence from across the planet correlates across multiple measurements. This is basically a "the geological column doesn't exist" argument worded differently. And that argument fails as well.

3) Is a stretching of the truth and some falsehoods. The soft tissue was not flexible and soft when found. It softened when accidentally hydrated during the cleaning of the fossil. DNA has been found and dated from samples that are between 10,000 and 300,000 years old, which is FAR older than a YEC view would allow. And the scientist who made the discovery, Dr. Mary Schweitzer, a Christian herself, agrees on the age of the find. Basically, Hamm is distorting facts here.

4) This is just bad science. Or bad math. A 25% drop in solar output isn't a 25% drop in surface temp. Thanks to the outheating effect of being, well, a planet, it's 7%. And that is in a closed system with no feedback mechanisms, like greenhouse effects. The Earth's atmosphere was FULL of heavy greenhouse gasses for a long time, like methane.

5) Fluctuations in the magnetic field only prove a 6,000 year earth if they are constant. They are not. Also, Barnes' work doesn't hold up to evidence, and his measurements are of dipole strength, not field strength Dipole strength can vary while field strength doesn't, so his model is unpredictive and flawed.

6) Radioactive decay is complicated, but basically, the experiments that Hamm likes to point to are awful. They do not properly account for almost any variables or outside effects. Also, if the radioactive decay happened all at once, the radioactive HEAT would have as well. This would have fried the entire planet.

7) Sleight-of-hand. C14 dating is limited in how far it can go back, so if you hand it a sample from, say 650 million years ago, it'll peg at whatever the max date it find is. It's akin to driving a car with a speedometer that only goes up to 90 mph, then attaching a rocket to the back and taking that beast up to 200 mph. The speedometer will only read 80. Hamm is being disingenuous here by using the wrong tool for the job, like trying to use a jeweler's loupe to fix a leaky pipe, then claiming that jeweler's loupes don't work.

8) Assumes a) uniform age for comets, which is factually false and b) lack of a cometary replenishment. Uniform comet age is already known to be wrong, and the Kuiper Belt has been observed, where there are LOTS and LOTS of cometary replacements. And that doesn't even count the Oort Cloud, which is a hypothetical additional source.

9) Based on work by Austin and Humphreys, who drastically miscalculated sodium loss rates by omitting a lot of mechanisms which change the time scale. When they are taken into account, the numbers match current scientific models, not YEC models.

10) More sleight of hand. The SALT was 250 million years old. The bacteria has not had it's age verified, so it's unknown. Since we're still figuring out what's going on there, this is just the God of the Gaps, not proof of YEC.

It's worth noting that even if the evidence Hamm is relying on was correct and properly examined (which it isn't) none of Hamm's evidence supports a 6000 year old earth. In many cases, it supports an earth many times older. Only by introducing miracles as scientific fact does Hamm wind up at the 6000 year age. And if it's miraculous, fine. But then it by definition is not scientific proof of anything.

OK more substance in that post than I can respond to off the cuff. You will get answers in instalments over time. Thanks for posting.
 
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mark kennedy

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A young earth would rule out macroevolution or abiogenesis which I have spotted you arguing against sometimes. It would not matter to me if the earth was old - I would just become an Old Earth Creationist with questions about how to interpret Genesis 1-2. But if it is young this is so deeply at odds with the whole momentum of our culture today as to constitute a paradigm shift of understanding. I do not like being deceived so I do not think it is a futile exercise to try and find out what is true.
All we know about the creation of the universe and the earth is that it was in the beginning, no reference to time. It might have happened seconds before creation week, it might have happened billions of years previous. The creation of the sun and stars on day four is another fundamental error that is easily dismissed when you look at the actual language, it doesn't say God created but that he set the sun, moon and stars in the sky. This has nothing to do with cosmology or astronomy this is about the origin of life. The Scriptures are clear that God created life about 6000 years ago, that makes perfect sense and abiogenesis is an absurd rationalization that never had real empirical support.
 
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