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The duration of hell and its purpose

What is the duration of hell?


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wendykvw

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Continued:

Dr. Thornton is the Director of Sacred Grounds Resource Center in Gloria Dei Church. He also works with an inner city ministry for at –risk youth in Philadelphia.

“We don't understand God's idea of justice. When we see a criminal, we look for punishment, retaliation, or revenge. When Jesus sees a criminal, he sees a child of God who is terribly lost. He looks for repentance, conversion, and transformation. Maya Angelou expresses this sentiment in her book wouldn’t Take Nothing for My Journey Now: While I know myself as a creation of God, I am also obliged to realize and remember that everyone else and everything else are also God's creation. This is particularly difficult for me when my mind falls upon the cruel person, the batterer, and the bigot. I would like to think that the mean-spirited were created by another force and under the aegis and direction of something other than my God. But since I believe that God created all things, I am not only constrained to know that the oppressor is a child of God, but also obliged to try to treat him or her as a child of God. “


 
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wendykvw

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Continued :

Martin Luther would change the face of Christianity by writing a 95 page theses.




“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy, there may be an opportunity to win it in the future.

Martin Luther’s letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg, 1522.

John Wesley the founder of Methodism. Wesley was in strong opposition to Calvin’s doctrine of totally depravity. Wesley believed in an Armenian approach to salvation.



“Beware you are not a fiery, persecuting enthusiast. Do not imagine that God has called you (just contrary to the spirit of Him you style your Master) to destroy men's lives, and not to save them. Never dream of forcing men into the ways of God. Think yourself, and let think. Use no constraint in matters of religion. Even those who are farthest out of the way never compel to come in by any other means than reason, truth, and love.”

The Works of the Reverend John Wesley, A. M. - Page 336


Carlton Pearson
Pentecostal Minister of a large and growing congregation lost everything he spent his life building. He was on the board of directors for Oral Roberts University. One day while sitting in his living room watching the news he began a conversation with God. The conversation is described in his book ‘The Gospel of Inclusion.'



“God, I do not know how you can sit on your throne there in heaven and let these poor people drop to the ground hungry, heartbroken, and lost and just randomly suck them into hell, thinking nothing of it, and be a ‘sovereign God’, not to mention a ‘God of love’. There was an eerie silence before I heard a voice respond within me: Is that what you think we’re doing, sucking them all into hell?

That’s’ what I’ve been taught, I responded angrily. And what would change that? They need to get saved so they can go to heaven, I answered confidently. And how would that happen? I responded, somebody needs to go over there and get them saved by preaching the Gospel to them. Well then, the voice resounded, if you really believe that, why don’t you put down your food and your baby , turn off your big-screen TV, and catch the first plane over there and get them saved?



I burst into an emotion mix of tears grief, compassion, shame, guilt and anger. Then I retorted, don’t out that guilt on me Lord. I’m doing the best I can! I can’t leave this little girl and boy you gave me. If you wanted me to do what you’ve just suggested, you should have made that clear to me before you gave me this family. I’m doing the best I can; besides, I can’t save this while world! Precisely, the voice responded. That’s what we already did. But these people don’t know it, and, regretfully, most of you who claim to be my followers don’t ‘believe it.”

“Torturing people forever is an action easier to associate with Satan than with God, measured by ordinary moral standards and/or by the Gospel.” Clark H. Pinnock ( four views of hell, pg.104). Clark supports the annihilation view.
 
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wendykvw

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wendykvw

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I don't know if this would interest you, but I think you are on a roll to look at what early Judaism believed about hell, punishment, etc. I did something similar, but have not looked further into it. The website that I found helpful is chabad.org.

This was just interesting to me looking into other religions' beliefs of hell. Buddhism really surprised me:
In ancient Buddhism, hell is a place of eternal torment but reformed this view with the belief that hell was emptied by a victorious Savior.


In Judaism some believe hell is temporal and the amount of time spent is limited to twelve months, if someone is extremely wicked, they will be annihilated. According to the rabbi @ chabad.org


In Islam hell is reserved for non-believers of Allah and their torment and suffering will last for eternity.
 
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Daniel9v9

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There's too much for me to respond to here, so I have to refrain from going into details, otherwise I'm going to drive us both nuts. I'll just leave it at this: What you describe here is a theological framework that in many ways seems reactionary to Arminianism, but more importantly, one that confuses Justification and Sanctification. It's the person and works of Christ who justifies us, and in Him, we are completely justified; and it's the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us or moulds us into the image of Christ, but this has no bearing on our salvation. Good works follow salvation, for it is in the Spirit that we are able to love God and love our neighbour. The best summary of the relationship between salvation and works to my mind is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Basically, the idea of a kind of Purgatory for believers and unbelievers is simply not taught in Scripture as illustrated above, nor by the early church. It's entirely foreign to the church fathers and it doesn't exist in our creeds.
 
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wendykvw

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I actually love what you wrote here, justification, sanctification and salvation gets all rolled into one. This is a problem, and I strongly believe this is why we have so much confusion among all the various denominations among Christianity. I have not studied the history of purgatory, but hell has been a contentious doctrine for sometime. Rethink hell conferences include discussion for each view. I posted a link.#103

Restoration is a balance between Calvinism and Arminianism. When you have time, this will give you a new perspective. Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism


 
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wendykvw

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@wendykvw Can I trouble you to find the verse or passage that you believe best support your theory? Then I'd be glad to look at the context together.

I would suggest the link provided above. #107.
 
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ozso

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Only what Judaism taught in the time of Christ is relevant because it pertains to what Jesus said about Gehenna and Hades.
 
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Daniel9v9

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I would suggest the link provided above. #107.

Thank you for the link. Though I regret to say it's a weak and flawed theory that betrays a lack of understanding of church controversies and what the different church bodies teach, believe, and confess. To say something positive about it, I'm glad the author wrestles with Arminianism and Calvinism and sees that there is truth and error in both systems. Both systems are logical in their own right, but both ignore or mishandle Scriptures that don't conform to their respective systems.

Now to suggest that Universalism is on par with Arminianism and Calvinism is not a particularly sophisticated take, because while I disagree with both Arminianism and Calvinism, and find it very peculiar that they can coexist in many church bodies, as if it didn't matter, I do recognise that they both in their own way have a fidelity to the creeds, whereas Universalism plainly doesn't. Universalism doesn't have any real Scriptural or historical weight. In fact, Universalism is not Christianity — it's a different religion, it's not what Christ preached, which is why these forums rightly do not allow it in Christian threads.

Now, the reason I wanted to dial things back and focus on one single passage or verse is to illustrate how these ideas are grossly misread. I've debated Universalists before, and every verse they quote do not deal with Universalism. They resort to taking things out of context and reading things into Scripture that don't belong.

So, what is the sedes doctrinae, that is, the passage or verse that explicitly teaches restoration in the Bible? Because in the article, there isn't any Scripture to hang the system on. There's only a loose theory — a reaction against three other systems. Do you see the problem with this? As one who believes, teaches, and confesses the ecumenical creeds, I can easily find where each line in the creeds comes from in the Bible. This theory goes hard against the creeds.

So, if you please, can I trouble you find a passage or a verse that you believe encapsulate the doctrine? Then we can take a look at it together and carefully and prayerfully consider the context.
 
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ozso

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What makes universalism unique, is that it's literally universal. There's hardly a branch of Christianity that doesn't contain universalists. RC, EO, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal et al. And within all those branches are some major theologians who are universalists.
 
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hedrick

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But, if Jesus compares duration of that punishment (hell) with the duration of that reward (heaven), it would make sense that they were used in the same way.
That’s if the word means duration. If, as seems likely, it refers to things associated with God or eschatology, that wouldn’t necessarily follow. That seems to depend upon which lexicon you use. My usual Greek lexicon, TDNT, does not see it as meaning infinite duration. Another major lexicon, BDAG, sees unending as a possible meaning. There are good scholars on both sides. The NT language also refers to both the OT and apparently other things such as 1 Enoch. But the interpretation of those varies as well. Is 66:24 refers to worms eating dead bodies, not eternal torment. But there is reason to think that some Jews in the 1st Cent interpreted it as worms tormenting souls forever. Some NT references could presuppose that interpretation.

The safest conclusion is that there were multiple interpretations in 1st Cent Judaism, and probably in the NT.
 
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ozso

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Would you say it could fit in with the age to come?
 
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BNR32FAN

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That’s not what the verse says brother.

“And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:42‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don’t believe this refers to salvation because salvation is not a reward. A reward is something earned. This refers to the rewards we receive in Heaven according to our good deeds.
 
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hedrick

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I think it does, but you need to understand the context.

"Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward; and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous; 42 and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple—truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.”"

Most commentators on Matthew believe that "little ones" is actually a synonym for a follower of Jesus. So it refers to some who helps a disciple because they're a disciple.

I think the reward of a prophet, a righteous man, and a disciple is salvation.

If you think justification is by faith, Matthew is talking about works that show your faith. It's not just doing good that's rewarded, but doing good because the person is one of Christ's. Why might doing good to a righteous person because they are righteous cause you to get the same reward? Because it's showing an admiration of righteousness. It's not a sign of very explicit faith, but it's still a sign of your values. I think faith as Paul meant it is really a matter of your orientation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don’t see anything wrong with the idea that it could be referring to rewards in Heaven and not salvation. I don’t see how that would be contradictory to any verses in the scriptures but to say that the reward is salvation can be considered to be contradictory to verses that specifically state that we cannot earn salvation and that it is a gift freely given.
 
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hedrick

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There are lots of discussions like this that are unending. I think the reason is that we're trying to get the Bible to tell us answers that it isn't intended to give. Jesus clearly believes in rewards and punishments after death. But in the Gospels he's never, as far as I can recall, giving us a complete description of what happens after death. His statements about judgement are all focused on what causes you to be rewarded or punished. His descriptions and images of judgement are quite varied, ranging from missing a party to eternal worms. A reasonable person might conclude that he's not intending to answer some of the questions we want answers to. Traditional exegesis gravitates to the most extreme and extrapolates from there. That's not how I do it.

There are a couple of places that do look at what happens. I'm thinking of Paul in 1 Cor 15 (and I believe also 1 Thes) and the Revelation. But Paul is focused on the final outcome, a complete restoration. So it's still not a complete description of judgement, though other passages in Paul do talk about wrath and describe judgement in other ways. That's why Paul can still be understood in a couple of ways. There are some ambiguities in the Revelation, but it also has a clear view of the final state, which is also a complete restoration. I think the lake of fire indicates destruction of God's enemies before that happens (as does 1 Cor 15:24, though in Paul it's not clear whether that includes humans or just supernatural enemies, while the Revelation is clearer).

Just how much we are committed to the destruction that's at least implicit in Paul and explicit in the Revelation is a matter of our theology and how we view the Bible. I don't feel completely committed, but I'm not prepared to ignore it either. I would like to believe in universalism, but I fear there are some people sufficiently opposed to God that fixing them wouldn't leave much of what they are.
 
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ozso

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Then why in this is eternal life based on those who gave? That's the story as a whole. Those who gave a cup of water etc will go away into eternal life, and those who didn't will go away into eternal punishment.
 
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eleos1954

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I assume you believe that the deceased are sleeping and support the annihilation view?

It is right here (other places as well)

New King James Version
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

perish greek
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
 
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