The duration of hell and its purpose

[ozso]

Why did Jesus call it everlasting then?

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

That's a good question. Some say the Greek word translated as eternal, doesn't really mean eternal, but that's problematic.

But then again the whole passage is problematic because in it Jesus is literally saying the way out of the eternal punishment and into eternal life, is helping someone out. Giving someone something to eat or drink and likewise.

And most everyone has ended up doing such during their lifetime. So going by that most everyone is getting eternal life. Unless the whole thing, including the part about eternal life vs eternal punishment, is all just figurative language.

My bringing that up really upsets those who want the eternal punishment part to be 100% literal, but of course insist the part that leads to eternal life must be 100% figurative.

 

[dqhall]

Rubbish! Both encyclopedias supported eternal hell.
Talmud And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.

Jewish Encyclopedia: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment

People are saved by grace, by faith, by God, not by distorted Biblical opinions. One may insinuate God has time and malevolence to torture people forever or to eternity. Another will remember a healing God who commanded Peter to not strike with his sword, who asked his followers to turn the other cheek.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57
World English Bible

55 “Death, where is your sting?
Hades, where is your victory?” See Hosea 13:14

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ozso]

Rubbish! Both encyclopedias supported eternal hell.

Encyclopedias just contain information. A Christian Encyclopedia giving a record of what's in the Koran isn't in turn supporting Islam.

Talmud And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.

That is a 2nd to 5th century rabbi commenting on Isaiah 66:24. It was written well after the time of Jesus. You do know the Talmud is a collection of rabbinical writings from after the destruction of the 2nd temple, right? And also that the Talmud isn't an encyclopedia, even if it's in an encyclopedia, right?

Jewish Encyclopedia: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment

That's simply part of the encyclopedia's entry regarding what is written in the book of Judith. If that encyclopedia also covers the Book of Matthew, does that mean it supports Christianity? That's not how encyclopedias work.

 

[hedrick]

So when did the traditional Jewish view of Hell go from eternal torment, to Hell being a place of purification exactly the same as Christian universalism teaches?

There isn't complete data on early Judaism, but it appears that there was always differences. There are documents from before the 1st Cent that seem to condemn some to eternal punishment. But there is an early tradition cited in the Talmud that all of Israel has a part in world to come, except for 4 named bad guys. The exceptions kept growing. It seems to have been common to think that most people got out of Gehennon, but not all, but how many are in each category varied. Even in the NT there are images that clearly imply destruction, but I think Matthew probably did expect eternal torment for some. Paul doesn’t seem consistent with eternal torment but is unclear on how to reconcile the vision in 1 Cor 15 with his statements elsewhere about the wrath of God. It’s easy to get a consistent picture by ignoring or misrepresenting evidence, but not so easy to do it for real.

 

[ozso]

There isn't complete data on early Judaism, but it appears that there was always differences. There are documents from before the 1st Cent that seem to condemn some to eternal punishment. But there is an early tradition cited in the Talmud that all of Israel has a part in world to come, except for 4 named bad guys. The exceptions kept growing. It seems to have been common to think that most people got out of Gehennon, but not all, but how many are in each category varied. Even in the NT there are images that clearly imply destruction, but I think Matthew probably did expect eternal torment for some. Paul doesn’t seem consistent with eternal torment but is unclear on how to reconcile the vision in 1 Cor 15 with his statements elsewhere about the wrath of God. It’s easy to get a consistent picture by ignoring or misrepresenting evidence, but not so easy to do it for real.

What do you think about the statement below?

Traditional Judaism teaches that after death our bodies go to the grave but our souls go before God to be judged. God, as He states in Scripture, is the only one who knows our motives as well as our works—God sees the heart, whereas man looks at the outside (1Samuel 16:7). Facing the only true Judge, we are assigned a place in heaven according to a merit system based on God’s accounting of all our actions and motives. Traditional Jewish thought is that only the very righteous go directly to heaven; all others must be cleansed of residual sin.

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom (also spelled Gehinom and Gehenna).

Do Jews believe in hell? | GotQuestions.org

 

[dqhall]

There isn't complete data on early Judaism, but it appears that there was always differences. There are documents from before the 1st Cent that seem to condemn some to eternal punishment. But there is an early tradition cited in the Talmud that all of Israel has a part in world to come, except for 4 named bad guys. The exceptions kept growing. It seems to have been common to think that most people got out of Gehennon, but not all, but how many are in each category varied. Even in the NT there are images that clearly imply destruction, but I think Matthew probably did expect eternal torment for some. Paul doesn’t seem consistent with eternal torment but is unclear on how to reconcile the vision in 1 Cor 15 with his statements elsewhere about the wrath of God. It’s easy to get a consistent picture by ignoring or misrepresenting evidence, but not so easy to do it for real.

Is eternal death punishment? This does not infer they remain alive forever, only that this death is punishment and they will not live again. The righteous may live forever.

 

[hedrick]

Is eternal death punishment? This does not infer they remain alive forever, only that this death is punishment and they will not live again. The righteous may live forever.

That’s one way to read things. I think Paul would agree, and probably Luke. But its far from an obvious synthesis. I’ll say more this evening when I have time.

 

[Davy]

Would this be the annihilation view?

What does that Scripture evidence point to? Destruction by the "lake of fire", right? Why must we try to make God's Word fit a doctrine from men? Why not just let God speak in His Word, and let the chips fall where they may?

Ps 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
KJV

 

[Der Alte]

People are saved by grace, by faith, by God, not by distorted Biblical opinions. One may insinuate God has time and malevolence to torture people forever or to eternity. Another will remember a healing God who commanded Peter to not strike with his sword, who asked his followers to turn the other cheek.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57
World English Bible
55 “Death, where is your sting?
Hades, where is your victory?” See Hosea 13:14
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Please extend me the simple courtesy of reading my posts
#2 link => The duration of hell and its purpose
and #7 and 8 this thread where I cite 30+ scripture in support of my position. I don't think that one vs. refutes any of my posts. For this post only 2 vss.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Simply reading 1 John 4:18 in Greek or English there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus "kolasis" cannot mean "correction."

 

[Der Alte]

Encyclopedias just contain information. A Christian Encyclopedia giving a record of what's in the Koran isn't in turn supporting Islam.

Gosh! I didn't know that. Meaningless irrelevant comment.

That is a 2nd to 5th century rabbi commenting on Isaiah 66:24. It was written well after the time of Jesus. You do know the Talmud is a collection of rabbinical writings from after the destruction of the 2nd temple, right? And also that the Talmud isn't an encyclopedia, even if it's in an encyclopedia, right?

I never said the Talmud was an encyclopedia but it does provide historical data. So according to this unsupported objection the Jews, in the 2nd to 5th century, suddenly out of nowhere inserted the concept of hell into the Talmud. According to you they never read Judith, Isaiah, Enoch, Psalms or 1 Samuel.

That's simply part of the encyclopedia's entry regarding what is written in the book of Judith. If that encyclopedia also covers the Book of Matthew, does that mean it supports Christianity? That's not how encyclopedias work

.

Unlike you I assume that the Jews had common sense and could distinguish what pertained to the Jews from what pertained to non-Jews. So all your objections are are just meaningless, I can call it, nothing but rubbish.

 

[ozso]

Gosh! I didn't know that. Meaningless irrelevant comment.

You said "Both encyclopedias supported eternal hell." Which they don't, they like any other encyclopedia, just provide information.

I never said the Talmud was an encyclopedia but it does provide historical data

Did you ever check on that? Because when I just did, this is the first and foremost thing that came up:

So far as history claims exactly to spell out events that happened at a particular place and time, the Talmud and the rest of the Rabbinic canon of late antiquity do not serve. They do not supply reliable historical information about once upon a time.
file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/_journals_rrj_11_2_article-p200_2-preview%20(1).pdf

So according to this unsupported objection the Jews, in the 2nd to 5th century, suddenly out of nowhere inserted the concept of hell into the Talmud. According to you they never read Judith, Isaiah, Enoch, Psalms or 1 Samuel.

What I said is that the excerpt you gave from the Talmud was a rabbi's comment on the scripture he was referring to. It was a commentary on that scripture. And it reflects the opinion of a rabbi who lived way after the time Jesus' ministry.

Unlike you I assume that the Jews had common sense and could distinguish what pertained to the Jews from what pertained to non-Jews. So all your objections are are just meaningless, I can call it, nothing but rubbish.

That really doesn't make sense. Your predilection to dismiss everything from an opponent as meaningless rubbish, just shows a lack of objectivity and conformation bias on your part. When you keep posting comments like that, you just end up making yourself look bad.

 

[Der Alte]

You said "Both encyclopedias supported eternal hell." which they don't, they like any other encyclopedia, just provided information.

Wrong! Read my quotes again. Hint: "place of punishment" does NOT mean "place of restoration!"

Did you ever check on that? Because when I just did, this is the first and foremost thing that came up:
So far as history claims exactly to spell out events that happened at a particular place and time, the Talmud and the rest of the Rabbinic canon of late antiquity do not serve. They do not supply reliable historical information about once upon a time.
file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/_journals_rrj_11_2_article-p200_2-preview%20(1).pdf

Typical response from the UR faction. Find an anonymous source somewhere that supports your assumption/presuppositions and quote them as an expert. Not even a link.

What I said is that the excerpt you gave from the Talmud was a rabbi's comment on the scripture he was referring to. It was a commentary on that scripture. That was plainly obvious to me.

What might be "plainly obvious to" you means diddly squat here

That doesn't even make sense. Your predilection to dismiss everything from an opponent as meaningless rubbish, just shows a lack of objectivity and conformation bias on your part. When you keep posting comments like that, you just end up besmirching your own character.

Oh you mean like you blowing off my double post as "a wall of text" not even reading them then dismissing them as "snippets?" Still waiting for a credible refutation.

 

[dqhall]

Please extend me the simple courtesy of reading my posts
#2 link => The duration of hell and its purpose
and #7 and 8 this thread where I cite 30+ scripture in support of my position. I don't think that one vs. refutes any of my posts. For this post only 2 vss.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Simply reading 1 John 4:18 in Greek or English there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus "kolasis" cannot mean "correction."

It seems you favor a theory Bible inerrancy. There are numerous variations in early manuscripts that are not in harmony with each other and numerous interpretations that are disputed.

Jesus did not keep the Sabbath according to the standards of the teachers of the law, they tried to kill him. The rabbis may have claimed they were using the correct scriptures in the correct way. Paul said we are saved by faith. You seem to think everyone will live forever: some in paradise, others in punishment, pain or whatever definition you can find that you like.

In the parable of the wheat and tares, the wicked tares were reduced to ashes in a short period of time. That is everlasting punishment for a weed. It can not turn towards the light any longer. It’s thirst is no longer quenched by the rain. It’s roots can not find nutrients. It’s seed is no more.

 

[ozso]

Wrong! Read my quotes again. Hint: "place of punishment" does NOT mean "place of restoration!"

Der Alte said: ↑
Rubbish! Both encyclopedias supported eternal hell.

Typical response from the UR faction. Find an anonymous source somewhere that supports your assumption/presuppositions and quote them as an expert. Not even a link.

I posted a PDF from Jacob Neusner of Bard College. And I posted the link to it. But it doesn't come out as a hyperlink, so you have to cut and paste it into your browser:

file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/_journals_rrj_11_2_article-p200_2-preview%20(1).pdf

What might be "plainly obvious to" you means diddly squat here

It means that to you, but you can't speak for others reading this thread.

Oh you mean like you blowing off my double post as "a wall of text" not even reading them then dismissing them as "snippets?" Still waiting for a credible refutation.

Hmm was calling your posts a wall of text. I explained to you that was probably due to the archaic formatting you use instead of just using what CF provides by default. You keep saying I didn't read you posts like a robot, when it's obvious to everyone that I did. I seriously doubt you'd accept refutation from anyone.

 

[Der Alte]

It seems you favor a theory Bible inerrancy. There are numerous variations in early manuscripts that are not in harmony with each other and numerous interpretations that are disputed.
Jesus did not keep the Sabbath according to the standards of the teachers of the law, they tried to kill him. The rabbis may have claimed they were using the correct scriptures in the correct way. Paul said we are saved by faith. You seem to think everyone will live forever: some in paradise, others in punishment, pain or whatever definition you can find that you like.
In the parable of the wheat and tares, the wicked tares were reduced to ashes in a short period of time. That is everlasting punishment for a weed. It can not turn towards the light any longer. It’s thirst is no longer quenched by the rain. It’s roots can not find nutrients. It’s seed is no more.

There are also vss. which refer to wheat and chaff. "Chaff" is not a separate plant it is part of the wheat, which is separated.
I believe what Jesus said about eternal life and eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 et al.
If you will extend me the simple courtesy of reading and responding to my posts, I will directly respond to yours.
If you can, and I am convinced you can't, show me I am mistaken how I understand these two vss?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” Not, in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus, "kolasis" cannot mean "correction."

 

[Der Alte]

* * * I posted a PDF from Jacob Neusner of Bard College. And I posted the link to it. But it doesn't come out as a hyperlink, so you have to cut and paste it into your browser:

file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/_journals_rrj_11_2_article-p200_2-preview%20(1).pdf* * *

I tried cutting and pasting. No luck, Googled Jacob Neusner of Bard College, still no luck. What is the title of the article?

 

[eleos1954]

From the earliest days of the church, there have always been three views on what happens to those who die without knowing Christ...damnation, annihilation, and restoration.

Damnation views hell as retributive punishment and the duration is eternal without end.

Annihilation has an end at some point and destroys evil to ashes. Those of this view may expand further.

The restoration view teaches that hell is medicinal and temporal with an outcome of celebration, restored to their creator.

Explain your view and the duration and how you came to that conclusion.

Many people ask, "Are there people suffering in hell right now?" Job 21:30-32 gives us a picture about hell and when its fires will burn.

Job says, "For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; they shall be brought out on the day of wrath.” This text along with 2 Peter 3:7 shows that hell is not burning now, but at some date in the future the wicked are reserved and brought forth out of their graves for the day of wrath.

John 5:28-29 also conveys the same message, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Again this outlines that the hour is coming in the future, but is not yet, when final condemnation and destruction happens. Y

You can rest assured, that right now, at this moment, not one person is burning in hellfire.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It seems pretty clear that the Scriptures calls it everlasting, just as it does for heaven.

Amen and furthermore it’s contrasts eternal life with eternal punishment. Both being eternal yet a yin yang comparison.

 

[wendykvw]

What does that Scripture evidence point to? Destruction by the "lake of fire", right? Why must we try to make God's Word fit a doctrine from men? Why not just let God speak in His Word, and let the chips fall where they may?

Ps 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
KJV

Matthew 19:28-30 28Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.’ (NET)

The key phrase in this passage is “the age when all things are renewed” which is translated from the Greek word palingenesia. This word is only used twice in the NT and means the age when all things are returned to their pristine and pre-fall condition.

 

[ozso]

I tried cutting and pasting. No luck, Googled Jacob Neusner of Bard College, still no luck. What is the title of the article?

This should act as a hyperlink to download the PDF.

https://brill.com/previewpdf/journals/rrj/11/2/article-p200_2.xml#:~:text=So far as history claims,about once upon a time.

As far as Jacob Neusner goes:

Jacob Neusner - Wikipedia

But I supposed you'll still blow him off as an anonymous nobody and fake scholar, as seems to be your habit.