The Draft

[drich0150]

So it's okay to forcibly and violently steal someone else's stuff on the grounds that you really, really want it?

You tell me! your the one living the life of luxury.. are you willing to give it all up? electric, housing, grocery store food, internet, personal hygiene products?? all of it?
there is alittle more to it than buying a hybrid.. I'll tell you what. when you go out and live like they did 150 years ago for a few years, I'll tell you your how right you are over a luke warm sassprilla. But until then sit back in your A/C home with a fridge full of food and try to come up with a way to thank those who go and get shot up so you can have these things.. or those we have yet to send on your behalf.

 

[drich0150]

yeah. this idea that we're entitled to a draft to attack people and be destructive because of oil interests is insane. no one should HAVE to give their life so anyone else can drive an SUV.

See the above post.. Oil is in everything modern. IT IS NOT JUST GASOLINE!!!!

 

[stan1980]

I like living in my country, but you can guarantee if it came under attack and I was called up to fight, I'd be saying "Thanks for the memories" and on the first flight out, preferably some place where it rains less.

 

[drich0150]

Wind, fuel cells, E-85, bio diesel...
All these are sensible solutions, but all of these things cost money? Trillions..
where are supposed to get the money for all of this? Oil profits.. Who do you think will provide us with what ever engery needs we will have after we go Green? it will be the oil/energy companies.. there the only ones who have a distribution networks scaled to the global market.. This in itself is a trillion dollar obstacle to switching engery needs, but if the oil companies take the responsiblity then we are half way there already..

Look and the work Cheveron is doing with Geothermal Power production they already have plants up and running.. Where did that money come from??? that's right. cheveron is an evil oil company..

Switching will take time and alot more money, if not from oil profits then where?? If you can come up with a trillion dollar bake sale or something else then do so. I don't like paying the prices I do now for energy. but unless you can come up with a real non-hippy solution, then sit back and let the rest of us (doers) take you into the next evolution of industry.

 

[cantata]

You tell me! your the one living the life of luxury.. are you willing to give it all up? electric, housing, grocery store food, internet, personal hygiene products?? all of it?
there is alittle more to it than buying a hybrid.. I'll tell you what. when you go out and live like they did 150 years ago for a few years, I'll tell you your how right you are over a luke warm sassprilla. But until then sit back in your A/C home with a fridge full of food and try to come up with a way to thank those who go and get shot up so you can have these things.. or those we have yet to send on your behalf.

This is all mindless rhetoric, and you make some obnoxious assumptions about me, I might add.

I asked the question because I'm interested in your moral position on this. Suppose China realised they need all the oil you stole from the Middle East, and set about stealing it from you. Cool?

Suppose that you have a fridge full of food, as you put it, and a dozen starving people besieged your house and stole it from you. Fair enough?

 

[Lynden1000]

See the above post.. Oil is in everything modern. IT IS NOT JUST GASOLINE!!!!

It might be beneficial to kill others in order to get something you want - tribes of chimps and other primates do it all the time. But noting your icon, I have to ask, is it the appropriate Christian response?

 

[Crazy Liz]

No I want the draft to be put to a national vote
So a FREE country will FORCE people to fight and die if they do not want?

If a FREE country decides to invade another country, aren't they forcing people to fight and die who do not want to?

Making people follow the law is one thing, the vast majority of the time its for their own safety. But FORCING someone to fight and die for a cause they dont believe in...Im not seeing whats so "free" about that

It's not free. However, it is less hypocritical, since it is treating the nation's own citizens similarly to the way it is treating the citizens of the other country.

I think a lot of the people in favor of the draft right now think making military service involuntary would simply prompt more citizens to face up to the impact of war in more immediate ways. As a consequence, they expect opposition to the current wars to become more galvanized. Personally, I'm concerned that tactics of this sort seem always to have unintended consequences that end up making things worse instead of better. That is why I'm cautious about it.

However, I don't find your argument about freedom convincing. It is putting a higher moral value on our own citizens' freedom than on the freedom of others.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I agree with the Libertarian position on the draft: any country that can't get enough volunteers to defend it, doesn't deserve to survive.

That position is certainly logical WRT defensive wars.

What about offensive or preemptive wars?

 

[Crazy Liz]

draft in any war that does not serve to protect OUR country is not warranted. sorry.

True, but if you removed the first two words, your statement would still be true, right?

yeah. this idea that we're entitled to a draft to attack people and be destructive because of oil interests is insane. no one should HAVE to give their life so anyone else can drive an SUV.

And nobody should kill so anyone else can drive an SUV.

 

[Crazy Liz]

dup

 

[Meshavrischika]

True, but if you removed the first two words, your statement would still be true, right?


And nobody should kill so anyone else can drive an SUV.

no on the first one. you have the right to choose to be in the army/airforce/whatever then with the history of the government you know and accept what you are signing up for. while as with a draft you have no choice with that expectation... KWIM? it's like accepting a job without the draft... it's not obligatory.

i just think alot of the reasons we go to war and waste all this money is assenine.

 

[Crazy Liz]

no on the first one. you have the right to choose to be in the army/airforce/whatever then with the history of the government you know and accept what you are signing up for. while as with a draft you have no choice with that expectation... KWIM? it's like accepting a job without the draft... it's not obligatory.

i just think alot of the reasons we go to war and waste all this money is assenine.

Actually, I had a conversation with my son, who was in high school at the time, just a few months before 9/11. A number of his friends were planning to join the military. Having done a bit of draft counseling when I was younger, I told him I thought it was unwise to join the military during peacetime because you never know what kind of war your country will call on you to fight. If you join during a war, at least you know what you're signing up for.

But I think an all-volunteer army does help insulate the general citizenry from feeling we are all responsible for our government's actions in war. Morally, what is the difference between an all-volunteer army like you support and a mercenary army? I forgot. The war in Iraq is largely being fought by contractors.

 

[Futuwwa]

I personally am utterly against a national draft in its current incarnation.

But something...confuses me about the idea.

The vast majority of people I see calling for a draft are people who wouldn't have to do anything if there was a draft. They're too old or disabled and wouldn't actually have to go anywhere.

Now, as someone who is of draftable age, it seems to make more sense that the people who will actually be doing the fighting and dying should there be a draft, should be the ones to decide if there should be one or not.

I dont see how its right to hand someone a rifle and kick them out the door to go fight and die, without even ASKING if they want to.

It just seems very hypocritical "We're fighting for freedom! So we'll force people to go and fight for us even if they dont want to, all in the name of FREEDOM!!!!"

Well, that's just unavoidable in a democracy. Everyone is allowed to vote, regardless of if he is directly affected by the issue at stake or not. Would you like child molesters to be the only ones who are allowed to have a say on child molestation? Ok, it affects not only them but the children they molest too, but they wouldn't be old enough to vote anyway

 

[Foolish_Fool]

I think Pearl Harbor and 9/11 proved that if people feel our country is really in danger we will protect it. Enlistment soared after those events because people saw a credible threat.

Iraq and Vietnam aren't getting the troops they need thru volunteers because the population realizes that these wars are not necessary. If something is not necessary then people are less willing to risk their lives for it. If you were asked to risk your life for absolutely no reason then would you?

 

[kilo321]

While I normally lean liberal on issues like this, I actually think the draft might help us right now. I opposed the war before it even started. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. It's not like the war in Afghanistan (which is justifiable) was enough, we had to go and spread our resources over another country, one that we shouldn't have gone into at all (but that is another debate). Now that we're in there, we can't just leave. I completely oppose pulling troops out of Iraq based on some sort of time-based schedule. Our actions in Iraq should depend on what our progress is, not what day it is. Unfortunately, we do not have nearly enough people fighting over there (as unpeaceful as it sounds). The draft would cause a major surge, which means we could get done with this faster and possibly end the war soon, the war that's ruining our economy and hurting our relations with the rest of the world. As much as I hate wars and violence, the draft might be what we need at this point.

 

[drich0150]

I asked the question because I'm interested in your moral position on this. Suppose China realised they need all the oil you stole from the Middle East, and set about stealing it from you. Cool

Suppose that you have a fridge full of food, as you put it, and a dozen starving people besieged your house and stole it from you. Fair enough?

You can't (I won't let you) just ask a question and not allow your situation be apart of the answer..
If you live in the "western world" you benefit from this war. the fact your not leaving your thoughts scribbled on mud hut wall is proof enough.

As far as as China or Poor/hungry people are concerned.. That's just the way the world works.. If I can fend off the hungry people I get to keep my food. or if china decides to take oil from all of the western world then we will be living in a mess..

The point is, the people that think in such a narrow minded world view often forget that they are part of the reason "nations" goto war, and eventually have to conscribe soldiers.

If just all of the "hippy" types would "Unplug" from the grid then in the case of the U.S. we could live quite comfortably on our own resources.. thereby leaving the rest of you to figure things out on your own.

But the fact is, it is our need to keep our "hippy" types in hybrids and costly to produce and handle "natural" foods all the while air conditioned and comfortable in their "green" homes, that keeps us and our "interest" in the middle east.. Thereby allowing the "other" nations to benefit by keeping there precious oil flowing as well. So there hippy types can complain and bring up morality issues all the while benefitting from the luxuries afforded by Oil and all those who serve willingly for a country that most are beginning to hate.

So enjoy the fruits of those who serve willingly or otherwise. and be thankful China is afraid of destabilizing the world economy it's so heavily invested in for now.

because one day the people of china will cry out when they've had enough drought, and low yield farming. and decide to settle alittle farther west.. Because on that day our countries will require any man/woman who can stop a bullet from 15 to 80, just to tackle their standing Army, not to mention there reserves and their conscripts.

But until then enjoy, and thank those who do.. so you don't have too.

 

[drich0150]

It might be beneficial to kill others in order to get something you want - tribes of chimps and other primates do it all the time. But noting your icon, I have to ask, is it the appropriate Christian response?

Three things,
first I'm not a policy maker just a commentator on what I see.

Second, if you don't like what i have to say, then change what you are doing. and get about 175 million others to unplug as well. And i promise I will change what I say according to the world events.

Third I'm just trying to open your eyes to this "Idea" of: "If everyone owned a hybrid, recycled, bought (green) we could get out of the middle east."

Every aspect of modern life is attached to oil. even (Green) stuff.. you all have, had, a Great marketing scam, pull the wool over your eyes. I'm just trying to show some of you, the man behind the curtain, by having you face your own needs..

I don't want the world to work this way, but at the same time I'm not willing to go on a 30 to 50 year camping trip (lord willing) either..

I'm just not afraid of what that fact makes me to look like in the eyes of those who have bought into the idea that they are better because of there knowledge of corporate propaganda.

all of the options for energy use puts money into someone's pocket. do NOT fool yourself on this. Terms like ecco friendly, green, natural foods... all of these terms, and ones like them, are products of big marketing campaigns. "Switching" from one to another will make some sly person(s) very rich. especially if they can tap into somekinda of conscience or "global concern."

 

[Steezie]

While I normally lean liberal on issues like this, I actually think the draft might help us right now. I opposed the war before it even started. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. It's not like the war in Afghanistan (which is justifiable) was enough, we had to go and spread our resources over another country, one that we shouldn't have gone into at all (but that is another debate). Now that we're in there, we can't just leave. I completely oppose pulling troops out of Iraq based on some sort of time-based schedule. Our actions in Iraq should depend on what our progress is, not what day it is. Unfortunately, we do not have nearly enough people fighting over there (as unpeaceful as it sounds). The draft would cause a major surge, which means we could get done with this faster and possibly end the war soon, the war that's ruining our economy and hurting our relations with the rest of the world. As much as I hate wars and violence, the draft might be what we need at this point.

Again, easy to say when YOU arent the one who is going to have to fight and die.

 

[ebia]

Morally, what is the difference between an all-volunteer army like you support and a mercenary army?

What's wrong with mercenaries in principle? (There can be practical difficulties if you don't have adequate control, but that's another question). The British army has effectively included mercenaries as one of its finest and most famous units for 150 years - the Gurkhas.

 

[homeofmew]

I not worried about a draft, mainly because I am a girl and I can't be drafted.
However this war should have been over a while ago there is no need for a draft in the current situation.