The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[ToBeLoved]

Ok let me try to understand what your saying.

Lost means your really saved.

Found means you are saved.

Ok got, thanks for clearing that up.


So Judas was lost, but since he was His sheep, he really was saved?



JLB

Let me really try to simplify this for you. Maybe a builleted list.

1. Jesus is the shepherd, the good shepherd.
2. If one SHEEP is lost, Jesus will leave the other 99% of the sheep and go and find the one lost sheep and bring them back. Note: A sheep is a saved someone.
3. So maybe now you can see where the lost and saved thing are parallel and not about loosing salvation, but about JESUS the Shepherd, caring for His Own Sheep. And how Jesus will go and retrieve His lost sheep and bring them back.

I hope we are finally on the same page.

25 “I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26 But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

12. What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and search for the one that went astray? 13. And if he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14. Likewise, it is not the will of your Father Who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish (Matthew 18:12 - 14, HBFV)

 

[ToBeLoved]

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

Was Peter the devil?

Peter was opposing the will of God.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71


devil - Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

In this scene, other disciples turned back from following Him, showing that they no longer believed.

• But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. vs. 64

• Judas continued to follow Jesus, showing that at this point he continued to believe.

Then Peter confirmed, and spoke for the twelve:

• we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” vs.

Judas became a traitor.

Judas was a sheep, then became a traitor.

• Judas was appointed to inherit eternal life.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1. Judas believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.
2. A traitor, by definition belongs to a kingdom, then becomes a traitor.
3. Someone who was never apart of a kingdom, may be an enemy, but to be a traitor they have to be a part of that kingdom, then defect and become a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-15


Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

• Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.

JLB

This is a mess theologically because we know that Peter was the apostle that Jesus declared was the rock which He would build His church. So if you think Peter is satan, then you have to talk with Jesus and ask Him why He would build His church upon satan.

 

[JLB777]

It doesn't matter how much you quote Jesus said:

ONE( one) of you is a devil.
NOT two! Peter wasn't included!!!!!
Jesus spoke in the present tense.

One of you IS a devil!

I think you need to understand why Jesus said what he did to Peter! But as you are not willing to admit to error, not much point in me explaining it to you is there

So the fact remains. Rather than admit to error, you desperately try and suggest a devil can be a faithful follower of Christ. And someone who habitually broke one of the TC by being a thief could at the same time be a faithful follower if Christ. This is ridiculous, but some will try and reason anything rather than admit to being wrong.
I will leave you to it. this is not stimulating conversation

So you believe Peter was the Devil?

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23



JLB

 

[JLB777]

This is a mess theologically because we know that Peter was the apostle that Jesus declared was the rock which He would build His church. So if you think Peter is satan, then you have to talk with Jesus and ask Him why He would build His church upon satan.

Its not a mess to those who study, and have the mind of Christ concerning the scriptures they study, who rightly divide the word of Truth.


What Jesus said to and meant, was Peter was opposing God's will, which is what the word Satan means.

Adversary.

He was Lucifer, the bearer of light, and he became, Satan, the Enemy.


If you read the next verse, Jesus explains:

• for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Likewise, Judas was a disciple and follower of Christ, who became an Apostle, then later he became a traitor, someone who acted in concert with Satan against Jesus.

He was the one thing then became a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-15


Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

• Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.

JLB

 

[JLB777]

2. If one SHEEP is lost, Jesus will leave the other 99% of the sheep and go and find the one lost sheep and bring them back. Note: A sheep is a saved someone.

No Ma'am, you are not using all the examples that He teaches about this subject.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



The prodigal son, returned to his Father, [repent] first, then he was alive again.

Then he was found.

Judas did not return, but hanged himself.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

If something is lost, then it is the possession of the one who has it, and it becomes lost.

Judas was one of His sheep, one of His disciples, then he became lost, separated from the Shepherd.


12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12

Them refers to his 12 disciples.

One of them was lost.




JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

So you believe

I believe you should be a bit more humble, and Admit when you are clearly in error

 

[JLB777]

I believe you should be a bit more humble, and Admit when you are clearly in error

You err, not knowing the scriptures.

Was Judas Iscariot a demon or a human?

Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.

Having become lost.

He was an Apostle, the became a traitor.

He was the one thing, then changed and became the other.


JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

You err, not knowing the scriptures.

Was Judas Iscariot a demon or a human?

Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.

Having become lost.

He was an Apostle, the became a traitor.

He was the one thing, then changed and became the other.


JLB

It is you who do not understand scripture. You cannot understand beyond quoting the partial letter, you don't understand the message contained in the letter. And like Jason, you will never admit to error, for you consider yourself wise in the knowledge of the partial letter, and have come here to teach others what you THINK you know. To admit to error is impossible for you.
No point in debating such people

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is you who do not understand scripture. You cannot understand beyond quoting the partial letter, you don't understand the message contained in the letter. And like Jason, you will never admit to error, for you consider yourself wise in the knowledge of the partial letter, and have come here to teach others what you THINK you know. To admit to error is impossible for you.
No point in debating such people

So let me get this straight. You believe Judas was never saved to begin with, and JLB believes he lost his salvation. Is that about right?

Humility doesn't mean you give in to another's theory just to be nice, if your convictions lie with what you believe God's word says and it conflicts with someone else. That's cowardice, not humility. Neither of you are at fault. So why would you want JLB or Jason to admit fault just because they don't see your theory? What is to say your theory is the right one? Let us reason together without conflict.

 

[stuart lawrence]

So let me get this straight. You believe Judas was never saved to begin with, and JLB believes he lost his salvation. Is that about right?

Humility doesn't mean you give in to another's theory just to be nice, if your convictions lie with what you believe God's word says and it conflicts with someone else. That's cowardice, not humility. Neither of you are at fault. So why would you want JLB or Jason to admit fault just because they don't see your theory? What is to say your theory is the right one? Let us reason together without conflict.

Jesus said:

One of you IS( is) a devil. He meant Judas.
Can a devil be a faithful follower of Christ?

Can a habitual thief be a faithful follower of Christ?

To follow after the holy spirit requires you to answer honestly with your convictions, not answer wishing to support another by what you answer with

 

[1stcenturylady]

Jesus said:

One of you IS( is) a devil. He meant Judas.
Can a devil be a faithful follower of Christ?

Can a habitual thief be a faithful follower of Christ?

To follow after the holy spirit requires you to answer honestly with your convictions, not answer wishing to support another by what you answer with

I'm not in this fight. I just wish it wasn't a fight.

Just remember Jesus gave Judas power to cast out demons like the rest of them. Jesus also said, can Satan cast out Satan. His kingdom would crumble. Or words to that affect. None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and blew in the remaining disciples faces.

That's just some things for both of you to think about.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm not in this fight. I just wish it wasn't a fight.

You have chosen not to answer the questions.
You see, I know, based on your beliefs stated on this website, you do NOT believe a habitual thief can at the same time be a faithful follower of Christ. and you know a devil cannot be a faithfull follower of Christ. We all know that, so why do some refuse to admit it?

 

[1stcenturylady]

You have chosen not to answer the questions.
You see, I know, based on your beliefs stated on this website, you do NOT believe a habitual thief can at the same time be a faithful follower of Christ. and you know a devil cannot be a faithfull follower of Christ. We all know that, so why do some refuse to admit it?

Go back and read my edit.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm not in this fight. I just wish it wasn't a fight.

Just remember Jesus gave Judas power to cast out demons like the rest of them. Jesus also said, can Satan cast out Satan. His kingdom would crumble. Or words to that affect. None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and blew in the remaining disciples faces.

That's just some things for both of you to think about.

How can you believe under the NC, unless you are dead to sin, in respect of not committing sin you cannot be in a saved state. Yet at the same time believe, that if under the OC you are a habitual thief, you can remain in a saved state/ be a faithful follower if Christ?
The obligation here is to defend spiritual truth, not seek to support any particular individual. Isn't that walking after the Spirit?

 

[1stcenturylady]

How can you believe under the NC, unless you are dead to sin, in respect of not committing sin you cannot be in a saved state. Yet at the same time believe, that if under the OC you are a habitual thief, you can remain in a saved state/ be a faithful follower if Christ?
The obligation here is to defend spiritual truth, not seek to support any particular individual. Isn't that walking after the Spirit?

What I'm defending is the Holy Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death. Also our flesh. While Jesus was still alive under the Old Covenant, even while walking with Jesus, they were still weak in the flesh. Look at Peter's denial of Jesus. But look at Peter AFTER Jesus blew in his face and gave the remaining disciples the Holy Spirit. He was bold and preached on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What I'm defending is the Holy Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death. Also our flesh. While Jesus was still alive under the Old Covenant, even while walking with Jesus, they were still weak in the flesh. Look at Peter's denial of Jesus. But look at Peter AFTER Jesus blew in his face and gave the remaining disciples the Holy Spirit. He was bold and preached on the Day of Pentecost.

Under the OC, there was an official righteousness of observing the law in place.
Please explain to me how anyone under that covenant can be in a saved state/a faithful follower of Christ if they are a habitual thief and therefore constantly breaking one of the TC.
Please answer the question, don't deflect from doing so

 

[1stcenturylady]

Under the OC, there was an official righteousness of observing the law in place.
Please explain to me how anyone under that covenant can be in a saved state/a faithful follower of Christ if they are a habitual thief and therefore constantly breaking one of the TC.
Please answer the question, don't deflect from doing so

The same way the thief on the cross was saved. That thief had more faith than some of the disciples. How could Thomas be faithless?

 

[stuart lawrence]

The same way the thief on the cross was saved. That thief had more faith than some of the disciples. How could Thomas be faithless?

When the thief got saved he didn't continue to be a habitual thief did he( though in his case he didn't have time to be)
I'm sorry, but I know you do not believe under the OC a habitual thief who was a devil could be in a saved state, or a faithful follower of Christ. Follow after the holy spirit and not the flesh. Just be honest rather than seek to defend error

 

[1stcenturylady]

When the thief got saved he didn't continue to be a habitual thief did he( though in his case he didn't have time to be)
I'm sorry, but I know you do not believe under the OC a habitual thief who was a devil could be in a saved state, or a faithful follower of Christ. Follow after the holy spirit and not the flesh. Just be honest rather than seek to defend error

I find it interesting that Judas did works of repentance. He gave them back the money. We will never know if Christ could have forgiven him, because he killed himself.

Anyway, that's it for me for tonight. I'm turning into a zombie. Good night, friend.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I find it interesting that Judas did works of repentance. He gave them back the money. We will never know if Christ could have forgiven him, because he killed himself.

Anyway, that's it for me for tonight. I'm turning into a zombie. Good night, friend.

You see, it is easy to say we must always follow after the holy spirit, and easy to say we always do. But the practical reality is, we don't always do what we say.
Likewise. When people say we must obey all of Christ's commandments, what they say is not what they actually do.
I prefer honesty, in humility, in preference to just making pat statements that have no actual bearing on the reality of my life or anyone elses.