The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[1stcenturylady]

I believe that a believer can repent (confess of their sins) to Jesus if they sin and then be forgiven or restored. Serious sin is spiritual death for both the unbeliever and the believer. God is not a respecter of persons. A person cannot abide in unrepentant serious sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and be saved. It doesn't work like that.


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That is going against the Holy Spirit in you. And yes, you must repent of serious sins, and turn away from it and back toward God. That was not the question. The question is do you see grace in the life of a believer to still be "unmerited favor" or "great power"?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Verses your theology which makes up a second salvation that doesn't exist to go with the gospel of works? Now why did Jesus need to die for that?

I will second that. Excellent question

 

[stuart lawrence]

In Romans 7:4 Paul is referring to the Old Testament Law.
In Romans 7:14-24, Paul again is referring to the moral law within the Old Law as a Pharisee. At this point in time he is not aware of New Covenant Law yet.
Paul never makes a direct connection to saying that the Law in Romans 7:4 that is dead is the moral law in Romans 7:14-24. In fact, Paul says that we should SERVE in NEWNESS of Spirit and not in the Oldness of the Letter (Romans 7:6). This suggests that there is a change in the Law as Hebrews 7:12 says.

Paul is recounting his past struggle with trying to keep the moral law without Jesus. He does this so as to how the futility of trying to obey God's good eternal moral laws without Jesus. Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


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When Paul states in rom 7:4 the believer must die to the law. In that verse is he referring to the moral law, which includes thou shalt not covet, or is he not

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When Paul states in rom 7:4 the believer must die to the law. In that verse is he referring to the moral law, which includes thou shalt not covet, or is he not

Just because you say so, does not mean it is true.
You need to clearly connect the dots that this is so.
Also, you have to explain Ephesians 5:5 because it contradicts your thinking here.


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[stuart lawrence]

Just because you say so, does not mean it is true.
You need to clearly connect the dots that this is so.
Also, you have to explain Ephesians 5:5 because it contradicts your thinking here.


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I am asking YOU if YOU believe when Paul states in rom7:4 the believer must die to the law, he is including: Thou shalt not covet in that statement

 

[Rajni]

Also, you have to explain Ephesians 5:5 because it contradicts your thinking here.

One doesn't have to inherit a Kingdom to be an inhabitant of it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

One doesn't have to inherit a Kingdom to be an inhabitant of it.

He doesn't understand Pauls message. And eph5:5 is pure deflection to avoid what is plainly being stated in rom ch7

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just wanted to correct ist century lady's false assumption.

So are you now saying Paul IS referring to the moral law in rom 7:4-6, including thou shalt not covet?

Surely not

What did I get wrong? The hope that you too could stop fighting?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just because you say so, does not mean it is true.
You need to clearly connect the dots that this is so.
Also, you have to explain Ephesians 5:5 because it contradicts your thinking here.


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It takes two to tango.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What did I get wrong? The hope that you too could stop fighting?

Unless Jason has had a road to Damascus experience he does NOT believe the Christian is not under the law concerning: Thou shalt nots

 

[Dan61861]

No, cheap grace is believing grace is a license to sin. And that is what Jason also means.

Exactly what confused you in what I said.

Unmerited favor means I didn't do anything to deserve it...right. Jason just said grace is obeying God's commandments.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Unless Jason has had a road to Damascus e perience he does NOT believe the Christian is not under the law concerning: Thou shalt nots

So what! Isn't it enough that you both won't kill someone. Whether he knows it is only through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, or even mentions it, doesn't change the outcome. Nobody's dead!

And Jason KNOWS it is only through the Spirit, and not just because the moral laws of thou shalt not tell us not to, even if he doesn't mention it as often as I do, or you mean.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Unmerited favor means I didn't do anything to deserve it...right. Jason just said grace is obeying God's commandments.

But why do you obey, and how? It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that makes us new creations.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What did I get wrong?

I'm trying to show you. I repeatedly ask Jason if in his view when Paul states in rom 7/4 the Christian must die to the law/ not be under it, Paul is including: thou shalt not covet in that statement
So far he seems reluctant to answer, which is strange as previously he has been adamant Paul is not referring to : thou shalt not covet in that verse

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is going against the Holy Spirit in you.

Not sure what you mean by this statement. Are you saying that a believer who sins and think they are saved is going against the Spirit? I would say .... yes, that is true. But the question is: Are believers right with God if they justify sin and evil by any amount?

And yes, you must repent of serious sins, and turn away from it and back toward God. That was not the question.

That is good.

The question is do you see grace in the life of a believer to still be "unmerited favor" or "great power"?

It can mean both of those things. Grace can have various meanings in the BIble.

Grace Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary


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[1stcenturylady]

I'm trying to show you. I repeatedly ask Jason if in his view when Paul states in rom 7/4 the Christian must die to the law/ not be under it, Paul is including: thou shalt not covet in that statement
So far he seems reluctant to answer, which as strange as previously he has been adamant Paul is not referring to : thou shalt not covet in that verse

That's only because he is as stubborn as you. LOL

Neither of you want to find a common ground. You want to bicker over how to come to the same outcome - nobody's dead.

 

[Dan61861]

I believe that a believer can repent (confess of their sins) to Jesus if they sin and then be forgiven or restored. Serious sin is spiritual death for both the unbeliever and the believer. God is not a respecter of persons. A person cannot abide in unrepentant serious sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and be saved. It doesn't work like that.


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To clarify, if I tell a lie and repent...God will forgive me. If I tell another lie...I suffer spiritual death. Right?

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's only because he is as stubborn as you. LOL

Neither of you want to find a common ground. You want to bicker over how to come to the same outcome - nobody's dead.

You are very wrong here. You wrote that Jason had made a good post regarding his view the Christian is not under law concerning:. Thou shalt not.

As every previous statement of his insists Paul is not referring to Thou shalt not covet, in rom7:4-6 you must have misunderstood his post. Unless of course he has recently changed his mind

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm trying to show you. I repeatedly ask Jason if in his view when Paul states in rom 7/4 the Christian must die to the law/ not be under it, Paul is including: thou shalt not covet in that statement
So far he seems reluctant to answer, which as strange as previously he has been adamant Paul is not referring to : thou shalt not covet in that verse

I have answered this for you many, many times.
Again, while Romans 7:4 says the Old Law is dead while Paul struggled with the moral law of the Old Law in Romans 7:14-24 (the moral law), Paul did not know about the change in the Law yet and he did not know Jesus yet. So he struggled to keep God's moral law under the Old Covenant without Jesus.
In verse 25 (Romans 7:25) is when Paul transitions back to talking from the perspective as a Christian.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
Romans 7:6 says we are to SERVE in NEWNESS of Spirit and not in the OLDNESS of the letter.
This is important to understand because things are similar but yet they are different.
The moral law has carried over into the New Testament.
Ephesians 5:5 makes this clear that obedience to the moral law still relates to our salvation.
So Paul's point is not that the moral law was dead in Romans 7:14-24, but that the Law as a whole (the Old Covenant Law is dead) and we are to serve in NEWNESS of Spirit in Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit.

We fulfill that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the law of love or the moral law) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Paul is trying to get Messianic believers (Who know the Law) to see that the usefulness of the Law (the moral law) can be obeyed through Jesus Christ even when the whole of the OT Law is no longer binding for NT believers.


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[Dan61861]

But why do you obey, and how? It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that makes us new creations.

But, than it isn't unmerited