The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False?

[Tissue]

A call to repentence, or the signification of an immediate/unhindered access to heaven after death/Judgment is not mutually exclusive with UR.

Just wanted to point that out; seems as though a few are operating off of that assumption.

 

[Zaac]

Just a few little tidbits to think about. UR bes scattered all over the Scriptures, and once you see it for yourself you will never read Scripture the same again; it will leap out at you EVERYWHERE. It truly bes the dawning of the day and the daystar rising in the heart (2 Peter 1:19) from which illumination the true lamp of the sure Word bes lit to guide those still in darkness.

[BIBLE]2 Peter 3:9[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]John 12:32[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Isaiah 55:10-11[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Matthew 5:44-45[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]1 Corinthians 15:22[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]2 Corinthians 5:18[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Ephesians 1:10[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Ephesians 3:9-11[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Colossians 1:28[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Colossians 3:11[/BIBLE]

Axiomatic things present in subtler ways than didactic things. When something forms the basis for a discussion and everyone understands it as such, reference to it has a different flavor than reference to things being overtly discussed upon it. UR, the genuine original Good News of the Gospel, informed and infused its proclamations and invitations and persuasions, and once this bes understood one can really grasp the true tone and heart cry of the apostles as they preached and exhorted. It takes on a much different sound, different flavor, different nuance. The type of urgency bes different altogether, an urgency of excitement and anticipation that no one must be left out of such a beautiful and wonderful reality, that all hear the glad tidings so they, too, could enter as quickly as possible and begin partaking of the blessings of the Holy Spirit here and now.

There simply bes no way, really, to properly convey these kinds of things in a combative setting. Probably because they bes not combative, but inclusive.

My goodness. Will yall stop with all of this CaDan wordspeak stuff and speak English?

Moriah, if all are reconciled in the end , why does Scripture say

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:40-43

 

[IamRedeemed]

I have yet to see any cases refuting the Scripture I posted at all actually,
much less any other support for Universalist doctrine. When you say UR's do
you mean one person? The person I have on ignore perhaps? If so, well then
surely if there is a case to be made, it can be made by more than one person.
lol

Funny, no one who was/and maybe still is promoting their doctrine from the other thread,
in which their doctrine is off topic, is here taking advantage of the arena provided for
them to do just that. But only some late comers who came into that thread to gang up on
Nadiine. Interesting. They seem to travel in packs. rofl.

Further, the belief of the condemnation/damnation shouldn't and couldn't be expected as a great
form of revenge for anyone, much less those that claim Christ being that Jesus
went to the cross so that those that believe in Him could be forgiven. For us not
to forgive someone who has hurt us is not only wicked considering the price
Jesus paid, but Jesus said that if you will not forgive, My Father in Heaven will
not forgive you. (Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 18:35)

I don't know about you, but that is pretty clear
to me, that I wouldn't even want to mess around on that line of thinking
on my heart. I personally wouldn't put a lot of stake in that understanding,
not in light of what Jesus said.

Actually, if one reads the posts here, I think the UR's have presented their case with scripture.
I am off to read my bible.
Food for thought.
For those who think its just for eternal suffering, this sounds great if its one who has harmed you greatly.
But what if its ones child?

 

[Zaac]

A call to repentence, or the signification of an immediate/unhindered access to heaven after death/Judgment is not mutually exclusive with UR.

Just wanted to point that out; seems as though a few are operating off of that assumption.

Is there a call to repentance by universalists? If all will eventually be saved, why would they repent?

And I say to the Universalists again, given the things that you say about Universalism, there is no need for Christians to GO! and fulfill the Great Commission. And if the Great Commission is not to be fulfilled, wat are we still doing here and why hasn't Christ returned?

Even more so, if the Great Commission does not have to be fulfilled, why did Christ even go back to the Father?

 

[Zaac]

Actually, if one reads the posts here, I think the UR's have presented their case with scripture.
I am off to read my bible.
Food for thought.
For those who think its just for eternal suffering, this sounds great if its one who has harmed you greatly.
But what if its ones child?

Not really. I didn't read anything of the Scripture given in support of universal beliefs that when taken with the FULL COUNSEL of the Word does not speak to universal beliefs as anything but false.

When you look at those Scriptures in the context of the rest of Scripture, it's clear that all will not be saved and that some will be in the lake of fire for eternity.

 

[IamRedeemed]

But this thread is discussing what Universalists subscribe to.
So, perhaps people are "operating" on the topic at hand.

A call to repentence, or the signification of an immediate/unhindered access to heaven after death/Judgment is not mutually exclusive with UR.

Just wanted to point that out; seems as though a few are operating off of that assumption.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Are you a Christian universalist Moriah? IamRedeemed has presented Scripture that shows that all will not be reconciled to the Creator in the end. Using the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word, can a universalist say the same?

And if all are reconciled to the Creator in the end, what's the purpose of the Great Commission?

The consequence of sin and evil is death and destruction and they are thrown into the lake of fire. Can you reconcile everyone being saved and reconciled to the Creator in the end and what REV. 21:8 says?

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

So why hasn't Christ returned to claim what is His?

But is this not why we use the FULL COUNSEL of the WORD? The Bible says 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord Acts 3:19

 

[Tissue]

I have yet to see any cases refuting the Scripture I posted at all actually,
much less any other support for Universalist doctrine. When you say UR's do
you mean one person? The person I have on ignore perhaps? If so, well then
surely if there is a case to be made, it can be made by more than one person.
lol

Moriah made an intriguing case for this, and I'm not going to copy-and-paste it. You have the means to look at it; if you will not, that is your decision. Do not ignore the fact that someone DID, however.

 

[Zaac]

Moriah made an intriguing case for this, and I'm not going to copy-and-paste it. You have the means to look at it; if you will not, that is your decision. Do not ignore the fact that someone DID, however.

I looked at em, and again, taking the FULL COUNSEL of the WORD into account, no piece of Scripture given by Moriah supports any universal doctrine.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Actually, if one reads the posts here, I think the UR's have presented their case with scripture.

IaR has already indicated she has no interest in reading the posts of the only person bothering to respond scripturally to her "challenge".

For those who think its just for eternal suffering, this sounds great if its one who has harmed you greatly.
But what if its ones child?

Exactly ... like this one used to say about the annihilationist view (which prides itself on making God out to be more merciful than those who hold to the eternally-burning-torture view -- HAH!) -- "it only seems just and right until you find yourself facing the business end of it."

which might (note please it says MIGHT) just account for some of these bizarre experiences where God seems to be letting all sorts of trials and tribulations shipwreck the faith of His children putting them IN those positions -- the whole unpardonable sin thing, for example, how many have fallen into that trap being convinced they've committed it -- perhaps there bes a reason for that experience? Perhaps the experience bes supposed to teach them something, like compassion? And perhaps those who fell into such experiences and might have gotten out have, instead, become Bodhisattvas (so to speak, in a Christian sense! LOL) what return to that pit of terror and pain again and again for the sake of guiding the newly fallen into it through it to the other side?

Food for thought!

 

[Tissue]

Is there a call to repentance by universalists? If all will eventually be saved, why would they repent?

To forego a purifying fire? To achieve a higher award in Heaven? Again, I'm not a UR, so I'm not representative, but I can see other options besides the typically considered polarities.

And I say to the Universalists again, given the things that you say about Universalism, there is no need for Christians to GO! and fulfill the Great Commission. And if the Great Commission is not to be fulfilled, wat are we still doing here and why hasn't Christ returned?

This is one of the biggest issues I see with UR. I have a harder time seeing a reasonable argument for this, but there might be one.

Not really. I didn't read anything of the Scripture given in support of universal beliefs that when taken with the FULL COUNSEL of the Word does not speak to universal beliefs as anything but false.

When you look at those Scriptures in the context of the rest of Scripture, it's clear that all will not be saved and that some will be in the lake of fire for eternity.

The moment anyone says something from Scripture is clear, and it isn't in the Nicene Creed, I am immediately led to doubt.

You refer to the 'Full Counsel' of the Word, which sounds like little more than a generated phrase meant to apply to someone who disagrees with you on the interpretation of Scripture. This sort of reaction typically stems from the belief that you have arrived at the proper position, and no other position can be correct, which is neither healthy for discussion, nor helpful for interpretation.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Which I clearly stated in my OP would have to be the obvious criteria for a legitimate
case for or against any doctrine. As throwing away Scripture or ignoring Scripture is
not an option in order to present plucked out Scripture that in and by itself does
not embody the full counsel of God's Word.

I looked at em, and again, taking the FULL COUSEL of the WORD into account, no piece of Scripture given by Moriah supports any universal doctrine.

 

[Tissue]

You guys aren't using the full counsel of God's Word. Honestly guys, you have to look at the CONTEXT. Clearly our position is correct.

----------

See what I did there? It's an easy throw-away, an easy way to ignore someone's position, but you have to bother to actually dig in if you want to get somewhere.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Exactly, and on that note, if the Great Commission was and still is unnecessary
to fulfill, then every martyr including the Apostles who were martyred, died
some horrific deaths to get the Gospel to people for NO REASON whatsoever.

Is there a call to repentance by universalists? If all will eventually be saved, why would they repent?

And I say to the Universalists again, given the things that you say about Universalism, there is no need for Christians to GO! and fulfill the Great Commission. And if the Great Commission is not to be fulfilled, wat are we still doing here and why hasn't Christ returned?

Even more so, if the Great Commission does not have to be fulfilled, why did Christ even go back to the Father?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I looked at em, and again, taking the FULL COUSEL of the WORD into account, no piece of Scripture given by Moriah supports any universal doctrine.

Zaac, this constitutes a completely empty and baseless assertion. This bes just one simple example of why Moriah has no interest in being drawn into debates. It will try to answer sincere questions as best it can, but it will not answer crafty "leading" questions, nor baiting questions, nor tie itself in knots refuting baseless and utterly empty assertions such as the one above. This bes not a stage and it has no interest in nor intent of "performing" let alone being "graded" on its "performance." None of those demeaning and insulting games constitute useful dialogue.

Additionally, we need to do away with empty euphemisms like "full counsel of the word" which clearly constitutes nothing but a convenient self-referential catch-phrase meaning the set of beliefs held by the person using the catch-phrase and/or anything that conforms thereto. Such nonsense will have us talking in circles and at cross purposes, not communicating with one another at all but each wasting our breath and time.

Fact of the matter stands: Moriah has no NEED to convince you, nor any illusions of itself being capable of doing what only God Himself can do -- open the eyes of the blind. It can present such information as it has and such understanding as it has been given. Beyond that, it remains with others to accept or reject. Moriah does not pretend to be a walking encyclopedia of UR beliefs, apologetics, and refutations. It can point you to some useful websites and articles in that regard if you wish to investigate further, but it can only speak as to its own understanding, not presume to represent an entire segment of the Christian population who themselves do not see everything precisely alike (but unlike other segments, manage to maintain unity through this -- wonder why that would be? )

Anyway. If you wish dialogue with this one, you will need to modify your method of approach and response. If you cannot, or will not, do so, we will not have a conversation, plain and simple, because it has no interest in an antagonistic, hostile, or combative method of exchange. It believes it had already made this clear several posts back.

 

[Criada]

Is there a call to repentance by universalists? If all will eventually be saved, why would they repent?

Out of love for God, gratitude for what Christ has achieved, a desire to please and worship Him?
Surely salvation does not lead to complete selfishness... if our only motivation for repentance is to escape hell, I would question its veracity...

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Now then -- there bes answers to many things raised here -- about repentance, about the Great Commission, for starters -- but you will have to bear with Moriah. It does not attempt to discuss such important matters unless the Holy Spirit directly activates it (and being what moriah bes, this bes very important) and currently being at work it needs to do paycheck-earning stuff! But perhaps later this evening or this weekend, if the Spirit breathes upon the slain, it will speak.

 

[Zaac]

Zaac, this constitutes a completely empty and baseless assertion. This bes just one simple example of why Moriah has no interest in being drawn into debates. It will try to answer sincere questions as best it can, but it will not answer crafty "leading" questions, nor baiting questions, nor tie itself in knots refuting baseless and utterly empty assertions such as the one above. This bes not a stage and it has no interest in nor intent of "performing" let alone being "graded" on its "performance." None of those demeaning and insulting games constitute useful dialogue.

How is it a completely empty and baseless question when you say that all will be saved and God's Word clearly says that some will be thrown into the lake of fire? Simple theology dictates that in order for what you're saying to be aligned with God's Word, it can't make something else in his Word a lie.

And either God is telling a lie when He says in His Word that some will be tossed into the lake of fire or the universal doctrine that all are saved is wrong.

Additionally, we need to do away with empty euphemisms like "full counsel of the word" which clearly constitutes nothing but a convenient self-referential catch-phrase meaning the set of beliefs held by the person using the catch-phrase and/or anything that conforms thereto. Such nonsense will have us talking in circles and at cross purposes, not communicating with one another at all but each wasting our breath and time.

Why do we need to go aaway from the FULL COUNSEL of the WORD? Would you rather I say ALL of the BIBLE? taking all of the Bible into account, not one of the Scripture listed by you supports universal salvation.

Fact of the matter stands: Moriah has no NEED to convince you, nor any illusions of itself being capable of doing what only God Himself can do -- open the eyes of the blind. It can present such information as it has and such understanding as it has been given. Beyond that, it remains with others to accept or reject. Moriah does not pretend to be a walking encyclopedia of UR beliefs, apologetics, and refutations. It can point you to some useful websites and articles in that regard if you wish to investigate further, but it can only speak as to its own understanding, not presume to represent an entire segment of the Christian population who themselves do not see everything precisely alike (but unlike other segments, manage to maintain unity through this -- wonder why that would be? )

Gosh, I certainly hope you weren't trying to convince me that all are saved. I know Jesus Christ. And I know that Jesus Christ says 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again John 3:3

And all have not been born again.

Anyway. If you wish dialogue with this one, you will need to modify your method of approach and response. If you cannot, or will not, do so, we will not have a conversation, plain and simple, because it has no interest in an antagonistic, hostile, or combative method of exchange. It believes it had already made this clear several posts back.

[Staff Edit]What have I said that was antagonistic, hostile or combative? I asked you a series of questions. Geesh. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

 

[Criada]

Exactly, and on that note, if the Great Commission was and still is unnecessary
to fulfill, then every martyr including the Apostles who were martyred, died
some horrific deaths to get the Gospel to people for NO REASON whatsoever.

The gospel is about fullness of life here, not just escape from hell....

 

[IamRedeemed]

John 3:16-19

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believes on him is not condemned:
but he that believes not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the
only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil.