The doctrine of hell

[John Hyperspace]

It seems to me that if God is love as thr bible declares and which I am sure you would agree, and that if human beings are culpable moral agents, as the bible declares and which I am sure you agree with, then hell is necessary.

I'm not sure I agree with your detective work. If God is love, then it's necessary to torture people for all of time? Mind sharing how you got from A to B? It would help if you used scripture to actually support the idea that such a place as "eternal suffering hell" actually exists before claiming it is "necessary"

Your line of reasoning would also conclude that everyone is going to hell, Christians and non-Christians alike, since "God is love, humans are culpable, ending in hell is necessary"

The entire doctrine is the most nonsensical, unreasonable, self-contradictory, loveless, purposeless, merciless, devoid of scriptural support, potentially God-slandering doctrine to ever come forth from the corrupt minds of men.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let us discuss.

There is no definitive "doctrine" of hell. There are instead a multitude of diverse views and opinions on the topic; there has never been anything approximating a definitive orthodox statement on hell; other than the fact that there is, indeed, something that can be described as "hell". What that something is, however, remains a source of continued discussion and debate even today.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JackRT]

If the concept of hell were as corrective action leading to repentance then it would be more acceptable. As it is presently understood it is abhorrent.

 

[Rubiks]

If the concept of hell were as corrective action leading to repentance then it would be more acceptable. As it is presently understood it is abhorrent.

Due to original sin, no one can repent except by the grace of God.

 

[food4thought]

1) God is love.
2) Love is freely giving of one's self (time, treasure, presence, and attention) for the ultimate good of the one loved, irregardless of the consequences to one's self.
3) Without love, heaven cannot be heaven.
4) Without freedom to choose, real love is impossible.
5) Humans do not consistently practice love, but have freedom to choose, making love possible.
6) God wants to help humans to truly love, so they can love and be loved by God and one another for all eternity.
7) God makes way through Christ for humans to truly love one another and God, and there is no other way that God will accept.
8) Some humans refuse to accept God's way, try to make their own (and fail).
9) God cannot force them to love, nor can He force them to choose His way, otherwise it is not truly love, only pull string dolls that say "I love you" when He pulls their strings (see point 4).
10) God cannot let those who do not love enter heaven (see point 3).

Therefore, God must do something with the beings who refuse to love and accept His love.
Therefore, God created hell*. (Other options are conceivable, but God chose to create hell* for reasons He alone knows)

*hell is the place where those who are unwilling to love or receive God's love are quarantined. It is a place where the worm of sins corruption does not die, [edit] where the "flames" of God's judgment of their sinful nature are never quenched, and they are consumed and brought to ruin by their own sinful lusts [edit], a place outside of God's light (which they have rejected), a place where they are "tested against the stone (Law? Life of Christ?) for purity" (what the Greek word translated "torment" literally means), but always found to be impure because it is only through Christ that they can be made pure.

Some would say this state is eternal, others would say that this state will last only for a time before the lost soul is annihilated. Both ideas have some scriptural support.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I used to believe in Eternal Torment and I even defended it at one time.
But in time, I discovered it was not only immoral, it was also not found in the Bible, either. Conditional Immortality is the true view taught within the Scriptures. This is the view that the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence in the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment).

For "Eternal Torment" in Hell is clearly not Biblical. Check out my defense with Scripture at CF on "Conditional Immortality" here, here, here, and here to learn more about it; Oh, and as for the Story of Lazarus and the Richman: Well, I believe it is a literal and true story about hell, but it does not teach that a person is being tortured in flames, though; You can check out my write up on that at CF here (if you are interested).

Note: The position for the belief of holding to a literal hell and yet also believing in "Conditional Immortality" (i.e. that the Lake of Fire will destroy the wicked) is called "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." While I do not know 100% for sure, I believe the wicked may go thru long stages of sleep in hell (with them potentially waking up periodically), so the wicked people who arrived earlier during the time of Noah are not being punished unfairly by spending more time consciously in such a place than say those who die in their sins and go to hell today.

For we must always think or remember that God is into fair justice.


...

 

[Rajni]

What if these crimes have eternal ramifications?

Well see, that's just it. In order to make the hell thing work, God's power against evil must be diminished, and human sin must be glorified over it. The result? The perceived "eternal" ramifications of human sin that even God Himself cannot gain victory over.

That's actually a good point. I never thought about how unloving a person who believes in hell actually is, if they have children. To gamble the life of someone in such a way? It's unimaginably selfish and cruel. How does anyone who has had children, and believes in "hell" possibly justify their gambling with the soul of a child? Now that I think about it, how is this not a crime? How are they not in prison? How is this really any different than forcing their children to tightrope walk over a pit of acid?

^ This.


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[anonymous person]

Well see, that's just it. In order to make the hell thing work, God's power against evil must be diminished, and human sin must be glorified over it. The result? The perceived "eternal" ramifications of human sin that even God Himself cannot gain victory over.

^ This.


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When we speak of God's power i.e, His omnipotence, we need to understand that such a notion does not entail God being able to do the logically impossible. The simple fact of the matter is that there are many things God cannot do. One of those is forcing someone to freely do something. We no more diminish the notion of God's power by saying that God is unable to force someone to freely love Him than we do when we say God is unable to lie.

God allows people to reject Him not because He is unloving, but because He is loving, for love entails allowing the object of its affection to reject it. This love is demonstrated chiefly in Christ's sacrificial death. He knew the reality of hell which He prepared for the devil and the fallen angels and does not desire that any should go there. This is why the great commission was given. This is why Paul said, "knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."

There is no need for a gospel or for salvation if there is nothing to be saved from.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The terror of the Lord is not Eternal Torment, it is fair justice being executed. Every sin that the wicked committed will be laid bear and open for all to see and the guilt of them knowing what they did wrong before a perfect and holy God. Remember, when Israel was afraid to go before God at Mt. Sinai? Was it the threat of Eternal Torment that scared them? No. It was God's holiness that scared them. You turn a light and cockroaches run and hide because the light exposes their own darkness. They are scared of God's light. Yes, they could be punished in the flames of the Lake of Fire. But it will be in proportion to their sin if God does that. It will be for only a set amount of time and not for eternity. Even just a few seconds in the flames of the Lake of Fire (knowing what one has done wrong against a perfect and holy God and in knowing they could have chose Him) is enough to be an endless torture before they are destroyed or annihiated from existence.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For example: What if your family was caught lying to a dictator in another country. What if that dictator tortured your family with insane amounts of pain the rest of their adult lives for their sin of lying to him? What if their lie was wrong and it hurt others. Does their punishment truly fit the crime? No. It doesn't. It is not fair justice. Oh, and yes. God in His Word does describe how He is into fair justice. For it is written,

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48).


...

 

[Aryeh]

@John Hyperspace, what you said in reply to my post (2nd paragraph) is quite optimistic.

It would be nice to believe people procreate without marginal (or staunch) belief in the hell of infinite torture and damnation. That, they would continue to have children in a fallen world with the belief that they have a real future, and there is no chance of their child entering this literal he'll for any reason.

Not so.

People procreate out of fun, accident, because of violence, and on purpose. And, remember more than one billion people today identify as Christian, which means a huge chunk of people procreate knowing their is a possibility their children may go to hell.

It is insane.

God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply BEFOEE sin. I don't think He wanted 7,000,000,000 sinners procreation exponentially. Good thing for DEATH, some would say.

Even after the flood, the order was to REPLINISH the earth, not make it degenerate.

And yet especially in the Christian circles I have heard people being admonished for not doing Godly duty of having children.

People... don't really think about their actions as we should. Procreation is no exception; it just happens to be important to me that I have thought about it.

I refuse to have kids anyway, but if there is a literal hell of super torment and no hope? Absolutely not having kids. There is no reason for me to anyway; Someone has already saved the world anyway.

 

[Rajni]

Since we are in the E&M I will throw this out there...

This thread was in Ethics & Morality? Now it's in GT for some reason. Dang.

In that case, anything more I'd have to say on the subject will have to wait till it gets moved again to Controversial Theology. Its current placement limits the spectrum of opinion permitted on this subject, which means people will be deprived of (protected from?) the full range of thoughts on the topic here.

Besides, I've weighed in on this topic ad nauseam over the years already. The pro-hell arguments are all the same, and my position on the subject hasn't changed, so anything I have to contribute here could just as easily be found elsewhere on CF without violating any rules and me getting carpal-tunnel in the process.


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[S.O.J.I.A.]

deal with it

matthew 25:41-46, luke 12:5, mark 9:47-48, revelation 20:10-15, revelation 21:8

our feelings are irrelevant.

 

[food4thought]

I started a thread, with the same title, a couple of years ago while I was leading a Bible study through Revelation. It can be found here:

The doctrine of hell

Here is my OP:

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger. Those who have seen and experienced God's wonderful presence and are then forced to spend eternity separated from it will undoubtedly mourn.

Fire is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

 

[anonymous person]

The terror of the Lord is not Eternal Torment, it is fair justice being executed. Every sin that the wicked committed will be laid bear and open for all to see and the guilt of them knowing what they did wrong before a perfect and holy God. Remember, when Israel was afraid to go before God at Mt. Sinai? Was it the threat of Eternal Torment that scared them? No. It was God's holiness that scared them. You turn a light and cockroaches run and hide because the light exposes their own darkness. They are scared of God's light. Yes, they could be punished in the flames of the Lake of Fire. But it will be in proportion to their sin if God does that. It will be for only a set amount of time and not for eternity. Even just a few seconds in the flames of the Lake of Fire (knowing what one has done wrong against a perfect and holy God and in knowing they could have chose Him) is enough to be an endless torture before they are destroyed or annihiated from existence.



...

People that are annihilated do not weep. Nor do they gnash their teeth. Nor is it said to them, "Depart from me."

People that are annihilated do nothing for they cease to be.

Yet Christ tells us that those that are judged unworthy to enter heaven do these very things.

The main problem with your view that those who die in their sins are annihilated is that not only is there no scriptural support for such a notion, but that said notion is contradicted in several passages.

 

[Anguspure]

The view of hell as a place of eternal life assumes unconditional immortality, whereas the bible promises that the wages of sin is eternal death.
Unconditional immortality is a Greek view smuggled into Christian thought, probably by Augustine.
The Jewish and early Christian view is conditional mortality where eternal death means exactly what it says: dead forever, seperated from the Life that God alone gives.

 

[anonymous person]

I started a thread, with the same title, a couple of years ago while I was leading a Bible study through Revelation. It can be found here:

The doctrine of hell

Here is my OP:

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger. Those who have seen and experienced God's wonderful presence and are then forced to spend eternity separated from it will undoubtedly mourn.

Fire is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

I do agree with the overall gist of what you're saying here.

A good rule I use is to go only as far as God has seen fit to reveal when teaching.

Those things which God has given to us are ours, but the secret things belong to the Lord.

Christ spoke about hell, but not so much that we know every detail.

Dr. Craig has actually some of the same thoughts you have with regards to the disposition of the damned and the accrual of sin throughout eternity. He argues against the notion that the inhabitants of hell become truly repentant and remorseful for their sins, but rather, they continually accrue guilt by being unrepentant and ever increasingly consumed by their pride and lust and passions.

If we think about it, why cannot hell be viewed as simply the final state of those who, by their continual choice to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (the unforgivable sin), have declared to God that they do not love Him, but hate Him, this disposition having been simultaneously evidenced and confirmed repeatedly throughout their lives by the choices they made?

 

[anonymous person]

The view of hell as a place of eternal life assumes unconditional immortality, whereas the bible promises that the wages of sin is eternal death.
Unconditional immortality is a Greek view smuggled into Christian thought, probably by Augustine.
The Jewish and early Christian view is conditional mortality where eternal death means exactly what it says: dead forever, seperated from the Life that God alone gives.

In the book of Daniel the twelth chapter, Daniel recounts what he is told about the resurrection to happen at the end of the age.

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

This is the first verse that came to mind when you mentioned that the Jewish view was one of conditional mortality. The above verse clearly predicts a future resurrection of both the just and the unjust. The former unto everlasting life and the later unto everlasting shame and contempt.

If those who died in their sins are raised only to die again which itself is an incoherent notion, and cease to be after they are judged, it could not be said of them that they suffer shame and contempt or that they weep and gnash their teeth. All of these descriptions assume the existence of the one experiencing and doing these things.

The dead neither experience shame or contempt. Nor do they weep or express anger and sorrow, yet this is exactly what is said to be experienced by the damned.

This coupled with the fact that man is God's image bearer which entails among other things, that he is essentially a spiritual and thus immortal being, demonstrates that we have good reason to hold that immortality is the lot of both the redeemed as well as the lost.

 

[Anguspure]

In the book of Daniel the twelth chapter, Daniel recounts what he is told about the resurrection to happen at the end of the age.

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

This is the first verse that came to mind when you mentioned that the Jewish view was one of conditional mortality. The above verse clearly predicts a future resurrection of both the just and the unjust. The former unto everlasting life and the later unto everlasting shame and contempt.

If those who died in their sins are raised only to die again which itself is an incoherent notion, and cease to be after they are judged, it could not be said of them that they suffer shame and contempt or that they weep and gnash their teeth. All of these descriptions assume the existence of the one experiencing and doing these things.

The dead neither experience shame or contempt. Nor do they weep or express anger and sorrow, yet this is exactly what is said to be experienced by the damned.

This coupled with the fact that man is God's image bearer which entails among other things, that he is essentially a spiritual and thus immortal being, demonstrates that we have good reason to hold that immortality is the lot of both the redeemed as well as the lost.

Also: Then THEY shall go forth and look on the corpses of
the men who have transgressed against Me for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind" (Isaiah 66)

But it does not say they will forever be consciously in torment, rather that others will forever have shame and contempt for them. And it is the shame, contempt and abhorrence that is everlasting not the person.
How does "everlasting contempt" become "everlasting torment"?

 

[thesunisout]

Let us discuss.

Almost all of the arguments against hell are based on assumptions that people make, the gist of it being that a loving God would never punish people with eternity in hell. This is exactly what the bible tells us not to do:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

Making an assumption that a God of love wouldn't or couldn't create a place like hell is leaning on your own understanding. The bible says that God is not only a God of love, but also a God of wrath. God has planned all along to take vengeance on His enemies on the day of judgment; this is clear, all through the scripture. Can the human mind weigh Gods love and Gods wrath and come up with what God should or shouldn't do?

Isaiah 55:9

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts

Those who doubt hell cannot prove it is not real, since the scripture plainly says it is, so they appeal to the flesh instead. Man instinctively hates Gods judgment and hates Gods holiness so it isn't too hard to talk someone out of believing in hell, mainly because they themselves don't believe they deserve to go there. Neither do those arguing contrary to the idea of hell, which is proof that they haven't humbled themselves before a holy God.

I feel sorry for anyone misleading people about Gods judgment; they are going to have a lot to answer for on judgment day. There are many on this forum spending all of their time and energy trying to disprove Gods word, to minimize His holiness, and to subtract from His righteous vengeance on sin; they are greatly deceived if they believe there will be no accounting of this at the judgment seat of Christ.