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Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Did he? Love is defined by what God says/does inside of Scripture. Is everything God says/does inside of Scripture in line with your definition of love, or even most people's definition of love? I think not. Isn't that why this thread was started - because we're trying to redefine hell to be in line with what human beings necessarily think that love is?
I have read it. There is nothing in there I disagree with and nothing in there or anywhere else in Scripture that contradicts the traditional view of hell, at least in my opinion.
Well, Christ offered the truth did he not?
If you want more than that I own several commentaries on Leviticus and could probably give you some quotes.
No doubt. But if God will torture temporally, and he clearly will, then why not eternally?
I will have to say I disagree with this interpretation....I find statements such as "I never knew you" and "children of Satan" and "born again" and so on to be indicative that they never had the image of God in the first place.
No, it's actually not in line at all with God's moral law. What natural man would execute their children for cursing them? Or for saying "Let us go and serve other gods"?
There is something more going on here. Why does God say that man's heart is evil from his youth if he is in line with most of God's moral law?
Indeed. But the point is that torment is not outside of the nature of God. Consider also the passage in Revelation: Rev. 9:3-6 (NRSV)
I would say their purpose is destruction...
It's purpose is retribution. Apparently some terrible crime has been committed.
I have contemplated it but it does not make sense due to the context of the statements and the sheer number of times they are used. There appears to be a very serious literal element here or else the word "fire" wouldn't be being repeated over and over again.
Actually, the way the word is used in the NT it universally means torture. Consider:
You will notice that in each case it is used it refers to some sort of active physical pain, something detrimental to the object it is being used against. You will also notice that the demons in Mt. 8:29 are afraid Christ has come there to "torment them before the time" which can hardly be talking about your definition of torment.
No, not really a Biblical definition: 1 Tim. 4:1-3 (NASB)
Unless you believe those who forbid marriage and command abstention from certain foods are sociopaths - a definition which I think not a lot of psychologists would agree with!
Sociopath | Define Sociopath at Dictionary.com
Yet God did not descend upon Mt. Sinai as a literal lamb, lion, or door. He descended upon Mt. Sinai as literal fire. Is he trying to tell us something?
We can know what he is doing because of what He has already done. Hasn't our Lord taken "all responsibility" for our sin onto his own back?Yeah, I think what it boils down to is the old saying, "With power
comes responsibility." Therefore, if one is *all* powerful, then it would
follow that one is *all* responsible.
To say that God is *all* responsible, since He is *all* powerful
becomes less be troubling the more one understands that He's
competent and knows what He's doing.
-
How does one pick up death and hades (hell or the grave) and throw it into the lake of fire????
Again, Revelation is highly symbolic.
Revelation is couched in symbolism. Yes, there's a lake of fire, but is it God's doing? I say no....
Rev 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Was Christ tormented forever & ever for the sins of the whole world?
No! He died within a 6 hour period. He took the curse, for all men, within 6 hrs. Therefore for God to torment the devil and unbelievers for ever and ever is unjust.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
In other words death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Or, another rendering, death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.
So there's problems interpreting Revelation. We must go to the clear texts....
Death and Hades (the grave where David still is according to Acts 2) are thrown into the lake of fire -- meaning that after the lake of Fire event completes - there is no more death, no more grave.
in Christ,
Bob
The text says that God is the one that creates the lake of fire".
[FONT="]9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.[/FONT]
Deuteronomy 29:23 NIV
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger
How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.
If God be for us, who can be against us????
So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.
Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.
Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV
Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'
Okay....but the thing is death and the grave can't literally be thrown in the lake of fire. But Revelation says it is. If it's not, then the devil isn't literally thrown in the fire either.
Yes, Satan takes the curse - the 2nd death, but he is not thrown in.if one thing is symbolic -- then everything is symbolic?
if death and the grave cease with the lake of fire then when the devil gets thrown in -- he ??
in Christ,
Bob
And the same language is used for Sodom & Gomorrah:
"Then the LORD rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah" (Gen 19:23)
As I have already shown, the Lord did not destroy these cities. He abandoned these cities.....Therefore Ellen White (since you are SDA) had it right:
"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown . Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner...."
Now, if you would, re-read my post on Sodom & Gomorrah:
setyoufree said:Now, if you would, re-read my post on Sodom & Gomorrah:
setyoufree said:Originally Posted by Setyoufree
Deuteronomy 29:23 NIV
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger
How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.
If God be for us, who can be against us????
So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.
Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.
Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV
Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'
Death and Hades (the grave where David still is according to Acts 2) are thrown into the lake of fire -- meaning that after the lake of Fire event completes - there is no more death, no more grave.
in Christ,
Bob
But that does not mean that the wicked have the ability to rain fire and brimstone down upon themselves. (At least not back then).
The results are the same
The quote above is about the one who finally loses all interest in the Gospel and is under the control of Satan.
"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed.
Bob
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