The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Der Alte]

This is still not a contradiction. Again, this would be like Bob and Frank talking to each other from two opposite sides of the width of a river that they could not enter without endangering their lives. The river also had a horrible stink to it, too. Bob said, "Frank, I am

tormented by this water. Could you give me your handkerchief so I can block out some of the smell?" Frank replies, "Well, Bob, beside all this (with Bob pointing to the river) there is a great river that is very extremely dangerous for me to enter and I would most likely survive going thru it.

..."

The word for "by" in Greek is "para" the word translated "in" in Luke 16:24 is "en" and it means "in" not "by."

 

[mmksparbud]

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

This verse says "there shall be no more death" four verses later in vs. 8 we read.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

If there is no more death how can all these groups of people be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?

Because the new earth is not remade until after the lake of fire. There will be no more death in the new earth. There will be no more pain (which means no more torment) Hell will have been thrown into the lake of fire by then. Verse 8 is referring back to those who went into the lake of fire---
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There aren't any more sinners left to throw into the lake of fire---they've all gone into it---then the earth is remade----no hell in it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Psalms refers to how a pit will be digged for the wicked.
I see that as the time of the Lake of fire being made.
The OT tells how the land of Edom will be made burning pitch
and brimstone forever. It refers to the people that will be there. God will have indignation against them forever. The
wrath of God will abide on the wicked.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No. John 3:36 is speaking in the present tense.

As for Psalms 94:13: The phrase "until the pit be digged" is derived from the method of hunting wild beasts by digging a pit into which they might fall and be taken. It is a metaphorical phrase.

For Psalms 7:15 says,

"He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made." (Psalms 7:15).

7 "For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.
8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall."
(Psalms 35:7-8).

Besides, the land of Edom will not exist on the New Earth. The old Earth that has the land of Edom will pass away.
Also, I am not entirely convinced the New Earth will have a pit where the saints will view the wicked. It's possible and I will have to look more into that with Scripture, but the more likely scenario is that either God will take them to Sheol in the heart of the old earth (Before it passes away) or God will bring the dead remains of the wicked (while they are still smoking) to the New Earth to show that their enemies have been defeated. This makes sense because this is how God has always operated. For God physically destroyes His enemies.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The word for "by" in Greek is "para" the word translated "in" in Luke 16:24 is "en" and it means "in" not "by."

When you show me that you have a time machine in your garage and that we can actually travel back into the past as proof that you really know Greek, I am not going to consider that you truly know what you are talking about at all. You can make educated guesses about a dead language based on what other people have guessed that language says, but that is not infallible proof that you are right in any way. I trust the language that I am familar with any given day of the week over what someone thinks Biblical Greek is saying.

Anyways, good day to you.
And may God bless you.


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[mmksparbud]

The word "parable" is not in the story about Lazarus and Abraham. Jesus Christ was talking first to His disciples and the Pharisees heard Him. Then
He spoke to them. It does not say that it is a parable. Was Moses read?
Abraham? so was Lazarus then

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

He started by speaking to the disciples then He spoke to the Pharisees
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God

It is not until after the parable of Lazarus that He then resumes speaking to the disciples.
17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I believe the lake of fire may be used as a warning to
what happens to those who go against God.

Not sure what you mean as to "this world" being purified by
fire. What verse/s are you thinking of? The 1000 years are
after the great tumult of Zechariah 14. People will need to
come to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles,
or they will not get rain.
The 1000 years seems to start with a time of - swords are
beaten into plowshares. That would make the great tumult
after Israel is back in her land have to end first.

When I say that this Earth is purified by fire, I am talking about God bringing in a global event (similar to the Global Flood) by the Lord hitting the reset button on this Earth by burning the Earth's upper atmosphere and by melting the Earth's upper crust. The Earth will still exist but it will be re-shaped and molded and re-created. This takes place after the Lord destroys all enemy nations (After His 2nd Coming) and after the Jewish temple is destroyed. Then... begins the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ (with the first phase of the 1st resurrection). At the end of the Millennium, the rest of the dead will live. Meaning, the second phase of the 1st resurrection of the saints takes place. Also, the wicked will be resurrected at this point as well (which is the second resurrection). Then comes the Judgment. The Judgment Seat of Christ comes first. Then the great white throne Judgment. The righteous will enter into the joy of the Lord. The unrighteous will be punished and destroyed. Then the New Earth will come forth and the old Earth will pass away.


...

 

[mmksparbud]

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

This verse says "there shall be no more death" four verses later in vs. 8 we read.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

If there is no more death how can all these groups of people be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?

Because the new earth is not remade until after the lake of fire. There will be no more death in the new earth. There will be no more pain (which means no more torment) Hell will have been thrown into the lake of fire by then. Verse 8 is referring back to those who went into the lake of fire---
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
There aren't any more sinners left to throw into the lake of fire---they've all gone into it---then the earth is remade----no hell in it.

Well I guess John did not know what he was talking about when he wrote Rev 20 because what you posted is not what John said.

Rev 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Note verse 6, "It is done." Everything that Jesus said before "is done." After saying "It is done" Jesus did not say "The unbelieving etc. have been [past tense] thrown into the lake of fire." Jesus says "but the fearful and unbelieving....shall have [future tense] their part in the lake which burneth with fire . . ."

 

[Der Alte]

When you show me that you have a time machine in your garage and that we can actually travel back into the past as proof that you really know Greek, I am not going to consider that you truly know what you are talking about at all. You can make educated guesses about a dead language based on what other people have guessed that language says, but that is not infallible proof that you are right in any way. I trust the language that I am familar with any given day of the week over what someone thinks Biblical Greek is saying.
Anyways, good day to you.
And may God bless you.
...

When you show me that the KJV at Luke 16:24 says "for I am tormented by this flame." rather than "for I am tormented in this flame." then I will agree that you know what you are talking about. Until then looks like you just change scripture to fit your assumptions/presuppositions and make sarcastic remarks about people who actually do language studies. I remind you that Greek has never been a dead language.

 

[mmksparbud]

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

This verse says "there shall be no more death" four verses later in vs. 8 we read.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

If there is no more death how can all these groups of people be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?

Well I guess John did not know what he was talking about when he wrote Rev 20 because what you posted is not what John said.

Rev 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Note verse 6, "It is done." Everything that Jesus said before "is done." After saying "It is done" Jesus did not say "The unbelieving etc. have been [past tense] thrown into the lake of fire." Jesus says "but the fearful and unbelieving....shall have [future tense] their part in the lake which burneth with fire . . ."
[/QUOTE

which already happened in Rev 20. It is the 2nd death---there are not 2 second deaths, only one.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[RAnonUS19B]

Let me get my word in, I guess. </3 If "God", does punish those to Eternal Fire, Torture, Misery, then what kind of God is that? If there is a being that wishes that, then I can't call "it", not him her, but a "it", a God. At least not a loving God. God is all-loving, no matter your "sin", no matter what you believe, no matter what you have done. You will not be punished to Eternal Fire. This was taking from other Religions, and was not taught by Jesus' original message. This is my view, and I'm sure it is your view too if you look deep within your Heart, at least that is how I eventually came to the conclusion after 3 years of radically preaching "Hell Fire".

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

This verse says "there shall be no more death" four verses later in vs. 8 we read.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Well I guess John did not know what he was talking about when he wrote Rev 20 because what you posted is not what John said.

Rev 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Note verse 6, "It is done." Everything that Jesus said before "is done." After saying "It is done"Jesus did not say "The unbelieving etc. have been [past tense] thrown into the lake of fire." Jesus did say "but the fearful and unbelieving....shall have [future tense] their part in the lake which burneth with fire . . ."​

If there is no more death how can all these groups of people be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?....

which already happened in Rev 20. It is the 2nd death---there are not 2 second deaths, only one.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So when scripture as written contradicts your beliefs you simply ignore it? John did not say Rev 21:8 had already happened.​

 

[mmksparbud]

OK -- One last time---

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If you wish to ignore these, that is your privilege to do so, but this is what happens. The judgment has been convened and the sentence has been passed down and death and hell are caste into the lake of fire. And then John see the new Jerusalem, and the new earth And then John sees Jesus and He says what will be--the earth made new and so forth, but the unbelieving and so forth will go into that 2nd death. I can not explain it any clearer than it is written--- you can make of it whatever you wish.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

OK -- One last time---

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If you wish to ignore these, that is your privilege to do so, but this is what happens. The judgment has been convened and the sentence has been passed down and death and hell are caste into the lake of fire. And then John see the new Jerusalem, and the new earth And then John sees Jesus and He says what will be--the earth made new and so forth, but the unbelieving and so forth will go into that 2nd death. I can not explain it any clearer than it is written--- you can make of it whatever you wish.

don't 7th day adventists believe that those who are unsaved after death analogy like a piece of paper which is burned to ashes and that's it-- it's no more, kinda thing? My kjv Bible says hell is a place of judgment-- separation from God ETERNAL torment/punishment...
2 Thessalonians 1:9 kjv & Matthew 13:42 kjv ~for example.

 

[mmksparbud]

don't 7th day adventists believe that those who are unsaved after death analogy like a piece of paper which is burned to ashes and that's it-- it's no more, kinda thing? My kjv Bible says hell is a place of judgment-- separation from God ETERNAL torment/punishment...
2 Thessalonians 1:9 kjv & Matthew 13:42 kjv ~for example.

Yes--we are annihilates. I believe it because that is what I read in the bible, not because the church says so. If they believed otherwise, I would not be one. If you have questions, please go back and read this thread again! Trust me, every question you have has already been asked, answered and repeated on both sides.

 

[Der Alte]

OK -- One last time---
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

All well and good but none of this addresses my point concerning Rev 21:4 and 21:8. Did John know what he was talking about when he wrote Rev 21:4-8? How did John get the tenses wrong?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell, whether one considers it the grave or the place of punishment, can be thrown into the lake of fire. But neither hell nor death are living beings they cannot and have not literally died a first time thus they cannot die a second death. There is a scriptural answer.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. ​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are sentient beings and can be thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended. There is no scriptural record of either being, death or hell, dying a first death therefore they cannot die a second death.

If you wish to ignore these, that is your privilege to do so, but this is what happens. The judgment has been convened and the sentence has been passed down and death and hell are caste into the lake of fire. And then John see the new Jerusalem, and the new earth And then John sees Jesus and He says what will be--the earth made new and so forth, but the unbelieving and so forth will go into that 2nd death. I can not explain it any clearer than it is written--- you can make of it whatever you wish.

What I make of it is I consider all scripture. I don't ignore or twist scripture to make it fit a preconceived premise. While the lake of fire is called the second death, twice in Rev., there is not one verse which says anyone or anything is thrown into the lake of fire then it or they die.
.....As written in Rev. the terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are equivalent terms "'the lake of fire' is 'the second death'" and "'the second death' is 'the lake of fire'"

 

[mmksparbud]

All well and good but none of this addresses my point concerning Rev 21:4 and 21:8. Did John know what he was talking about when he wrote Rev 21:4-8? How did John get the tenses wrong?

Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell, whether one considers it the grave or the place of punishment, can be thrown into the lake of fire. But neither hell nor death are living beings they cannot and have not literally died a first time thus they cannot die a second death. There is a scriptural answer.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. ​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are sentient beings and can be thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended. There is no scriptural record of either being, death or hell, dying a first death therefore they cannot die a second death.

What I make of it is I consider all scripture. I don't ignore or twist scripture to make it fit a preconceived premise. While the lake of fire is called the second death, twice in Rev., there is not one verse which says anyone or anything is thrown into the lake of fire then it or they die.
.....As written in Rev. the terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are equivalent terms "'the lake of fire' is 'the second death'" and "'the second death' is 'the lake of fire'"

I already addressed this--John also wrote Rev 20.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Yes--we are annihilates. I believe it because that is what I read in the bible, not because the church says so. If they believed otherwise, I would not be one. If you have questions, please go back and read this thread again! Trust me, every question you have has already been asked, answered and repeated on both sides.

Sorry- but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking and it's clearly not what the Bible says about it either given numerous Scriptures on it- 2 of which I posted...

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry- but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking and it's clearly not what the Bible says about it either given numerous Scriptures on it- 2 of which I posted...

Yes--seen those countless times. It is your right to believe whatever you want. There are about 25 verses listed for what seems to imply annihilation, and I think there were about 11 for what seems to imply eternal torment. I can't remember. Like I said, you can browse through this thread and get about all of them for both sides, and then some. And there are many, many other threads on the subject over the years on here. You can also search them out under the search segment up on the upper right corner. In over 50 years, I've never seen any new argument on either side.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Yes--seen those countless times. It is your right to believe whatever you want. There are about 25 verses listed for what seems to imply annihilation, and I think there were about 11 for what seems to imply eternal torment. I can't remember. Like I said, you can browse through this thread and get about all of them for both sides, and then some. And there are many, many other threads on the subject over the years on here. You can also search them out under the search segment up on the upper right corner. In over 50 years, I've never seen any new argument on either side.

No thanks --I believe the word of God.