The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

ClementofA · Nov 22, 2017

Major1 said:
BIBLICAL SOTERIOLOGY
An Overview and Defense of the Reformed Doctrines of Salvation
BIBLICAL SOTERIOLOGY An Overview and Defense of the Reformed Doctrines of Salvation Limited Atonement, part 19

Do you believe in the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement?

Are you a 5 point Calvinist?

Poll: Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?

ClementofA · Nov 22, 2017

Dig4truth said:
I ran across this article today and I thought it had some good points. Although I found that several of the biblical passages were not as clear as the article made them to appear.

Faith Defenders - Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna

There were some very good posts in this thread with a lot of biblical support for each position. I guess that means I have to hit the "BOOK" myself! Going to the scriptures with prayer, asking for wisdom through the Holy Spirit is ultimately where my decision will rest. Many of the scriptures posted in this thread will be a springboard for more study. For that I am grateful.

The following is my response to the "conclusion" at the end of that article:

CONCLUSION
Gehenna as a place of final punishment was a clear rabbinic teaching before Christ was ever born. The Midrash, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, and apocryphal literature refer to Gehenna hundreds of times. The Midrash alone refers to Gehenna over seventy-five times.

I assume you are aware that those writings are not inspired. So what is of primary importance is what Christ & the Scriptures teach. Christ warned against the false teachings of the Pharisees & Sadducees. "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

Additionally, there is ancient Jewish literature that speaks of many who go to Gehenna & then later come out of it. It also speaks of Gehenna being destroyed. These statements are opposed to the notion of it being a place of endless torments. For more on this subject, please refer to the debate between Der Alter & William Tanksley Jr in this thread:

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Moreover there are early Christian writings in support of universal reconciliation.

The vivid imagery and striking phraseology found in the intertestamental literature, which described Gehenna as the ultimate place of eternal torment for the wicked, was clearly carried over into the New Testament itself by the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Similarly to my previous comment, i refer you to the Scriptures:

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus said this to the Pharisees, "I well know that you do not have the Love of God in you..." (Jn. 5:42). So what would they know of a God Who - is - love - & the Saviour of the whole world, not just certain Jews or Pharisees only?

Jesus said re the Pharisees:

"This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

Jesus said the Pharisees' father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men.

The Pharisees had their oral traditions, which were not Scripture. Jesus rebuked them regarding their traditions.

That the ultimate fate of the wicked will be eternal, conscious torment will be further argued in a later chapter, but we have demonstrated in this chapter that Gehenna is the ultimate fate of all impenitent sinners according to rabbinic and New Testament literature.

Scripture says after the wicked are resurrected they will go into the - lake of fire - which is the second death. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God will be "all in all" (v.28). Scripture trumps & opposes any "rabbinic...literature" in support of a dogma of endless punishments.

The concept of Universalism, which sees no one going to Gehenna, or Gehenna ultimately being emptied of all sinners, is an ideal which is absolutely foreign to the intertestamental and New Testament literature.

There will certainly be those who go to Gehenna. The questions are (1) whether or not it is to be equated with the lake of fire, or is related to (2) only the millennial kingdom of Christ or (3) the judgement of the Jews (c. 70 AD), or (4) a combination of the three. And (5) can/will those who go there be saved. BTW, in one Gehenna passage, Jesus says everyone will be salted with fire (Mk.9:43-49).

The idea of annihilationism, in which the wicked cease to exist, may indeed be found in some of the intertestamental literature, particularly those works which were influenced by the Sadducees or Stoics. But enough has been given in this chapter to demonstrate that the majority view, that of the common man in the street, was of an eternal, conscious torment of the wicked in Gehenna.

Was any evidence given of Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus' mortal life (c. 30 AD). How do we know that the Jews in 30 A.D. were not divided in their views re the afterlife, including beliefs in universalism, endless torments & annihilation?

"Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he [Josephus, 37-100 A.D.] says:

" "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion)." "

"...He [Philo, 20 B.C.-50 A.D.] uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."

"...Had our Lord intended to indoctrinate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering producing improvement."

Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Major1 · Nov 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
Do you believe in the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement?

Are you a 5 point Calvinist?

Poll: Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?

I accept the Biblical teaching of limited atonement.

I am not a 5 point Calvinist.

As a Universalist, you are believing that Christ died for every person that has ever lived, correct?
You believe that it is Gods will that all men will be saved by Christ's death hence the word "Universalism".

Now I will not continue to argue WHAT you believe as that is a personal thing and we are all free to believe as we wish. I will however say to you that "Universalism" is completely and obviously Unbiblical.

The actual words of the Lord Jesus Christ destroy this teaching before it can even be established as He said in Matthew 7:13............
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it. Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves."

Clearly Jesus said that there will be more people in hell than heaven.

The theology that you are proposing one which is loved by the liberals of today who struggle with the actual words that are found in the Bible. So how does one who believes as you do fix this problem?
Easy......Just change the words of God to mean what WE want them to mean hence, Universalism.

Now are you a "UNIVERSALIST, or an "INCONSISTANT UNIVERSALIST".

If you are wanting to give me a name, I think that the name would probably be Scriptural Particularist.

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2017

Major1 said:
I accept the Biblical teaching of limited atonement.

I am not a 5 point Calvinist.

You believe in the Calvinist/Reformed teaching of limited atonement, but you aren't a 5 point Calvinist? Which of the 5 TULIP points do you deny?

Major1 said:
As a Universalist, you are believing that Christ died for every person that has ever lived, correct?

To quote Scripture:

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 Jn.2:2)

Major1 said:
You believe that it is Gods will that all men will be saved by Christ's death hence the word "Universalism".

who willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim.2:4)

Major1 said:
Now I will not continue to argue WHAT you believe as that is a personal thing and we are all free to believe as we wish. I will however say to you that "Universalism" is completely and obviously Unbiblical.

The actual words of the Lord Jesus Christ destroy this teaching before it can even be established as He said in Matthew 7:13............
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it. "

Few were finding it, is what it says:

how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

Not that few would ever find it. Clearly all will find it, as the same author said earlier in the same writing:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

As someone else posted:

Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter (eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13

How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14

In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road.

Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future.

Hell is Payback

Major1 said:
Clearly Jesus said that there will be more people in hell than heaven.

Matthew wrote "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Answer:

Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Dig4truth · Nov 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
The following is my response to the "conclusion" at the end of that article:

I assume you are aware that those writings are not inspired. So what is of primary importance is what Christ & the Scriptures teach. Christ warned against the false teachings of the Pharisees & Sadducees. "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

Additionally, there is ancient Jewish literature that speaks of many who go to Gehenna & then later come out of it. It also speaks of Gehenna being destroyed. These statements are opposed to the notion of it being a place of endless torments. For more on this subject, please refer to the debate between Der Alter & William Tanksley Jr in this thread:

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Moreover there are early Christian writings in support of universal reconciliation.

Similarly to my previous comment, i refer you to the Scriptures:

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus said this to the Pharisees, "I well know that you do not have the Love of God in you..." (Jn. 5:42). So what would they know of a God Who - is - love - & the Saviour of the whole world, not just certain Jews or Pharisees only?

Jesus said re the Pharisees:

"This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

Jesus said the Pharisees' father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men.

The Pharisees had their oral traditions, which were not Scripture. Jesus rebuked them regarding their traditions.

Scripture says after the wicked are resurrected they will go into the - lake of fire - which is the second death. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God will be "all in all" (v.28). Scripture trumps & opposes any "rabbinic...literature" in support of a dogma of endless punishments.

There will certainly be those who go to Gehenna. The questions are (1) whether or not it is to be equated with the lake of fire, or is related to (2) only the millennial kingdom of Christ or (3) the judgement of the Jews (c. 70 AD), or (4) a combination of the three. And (5) can/will those who go there be saved. BTW, in one Gehenna passage, Jesus says everyone will be salted with fire (Mk.9:43-49).

Was any evidence given of Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus' mortal life (c. 30 AD). How do we know that the Jews in 30 A.D. were not divided in their views re the afterlife, including beliefs in universalism, endless torments & annihilation?

"Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he [Josephus, 37-100 A.D.] says:

" "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion)." "

"...He [Philo, 20 B.C.-50 A.D.] uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."

"...Had our Lord intended to indoctrinate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering producing improvement."

Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Thanks for the heads-up on the Greek words to look out for. I will incorporate those into my studies.

I have a question since you seem to have a handle on the Greek words surrounding anything temporal or eternal.

Is there any verse(s) that uses the same word(s) for eternal relating to God as there is relating to the final punishment?

Dig4truth · Nov 23, 2017

I just did a quick search for some verses that speak of the eternal God.

Rom 1:20
Rom 16:26
I Tim 1:17
I Tim 6:16
Heb 9:14

My question would be that if it is the same word(s) then the punishment would also seem to be eternal. But if they are different then that would lend support that the punishment was limited in duration. Any help on this would be appreciated. It's all Greek to me!

Major1 · Nov 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
You believe in the Calvinist/Reformed teaching of limited atonement, but you aren't a 5 point Calvinist? Which of the 5 TULIP points do you deny?

To quote Scripture:

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 Jn.2:2)

who willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim.2:4)

Few were finding it, is what it says:

how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

Not that few would ever find it. Clearly all will find it, as the same author said earlier in the same writing:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

As someone else posted:

Hell is Payback

Matthew wrote "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Answer:

Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

I do not agree with you my friend.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Universalism.

If you want to make the Scriptures say that so you can be happy about what you want, please, be my guest my friend.

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2017

Major1 said:
I do not agree with you my friend.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Universalism.

If you want to make the Scriptures say that so you can be happy about what you want, please, be my guest my friend.

I do not agree with you, sir, or your limited atonement dogma wherein God loves some but hates most whom He sadistically torments for eternity. That characterization may make Him appear even worse than Allah of Islam.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Love Omnipotent sadistically burning or tormenting His created offspring in fire for endless ages. Though that is much like the god of Islam. I am happy that my Lord & God as Scripture reveals Him is Love, righteous, just, good, merciful and fair.

If you want to pretend the Scriptures make God like the Allah of Islam so you can be in agreement with the Tradition of the church division, er denomination, that you belong to, not lose all your friends, not be persecuted for Christ's sake, or to make yourself feel superior to others, you'll regret it later & miss out on the blessings of the truth that sets people free.

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

ClementofA · Nov 23, 2017

Dig4truth said:
I just did a quick search for some verses that speak of the eternal God.

Rom 1:20
Rom 16:26
I Tim 1:17
I Tim 6:16
Heb 9:14

My question would be that if it is the same word(s) then the punishment would also seem to be eternal. But if they are different then that would lend support that the punishment was limited in duration. Any help on this would be appreciated. It's all Greek to me!

Romans 1:20 uses a different word, aidios, that does not occur in the other verses.

The noun aion & the adjective aionios occur in the other verses. They are applied to God, punishment & many other things. In many cases they are used of finite duration. So the issue is whether or not they mean finite duration in contexts that refer to punishment. On that subject books have been written. This article might be a good place to start:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Dig4truth · Nov 24, 2017

ClementofA said:
Romans 1:20 uses a different word, aidios, that does not occur in the other verses.

The noun aion & the adjective aionios occur in the other verses. They are applied to God, punishment & many other things. In many cases they are used of finite duration. So the issue is whether or not they mean finite duration in contexts that refer to punishment. On that subject books have been written. This article might be a good place to start:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Thanks for your response. I'll check out the article too.

Ron Gurley · Nov 24, 2017

OP: "The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell"

aka

"The Doctrine of Just Judgment into the eternal spiritual realm of the "lake of fire" of torments.".

God does NOT "torture" or "punish".

were tortured...Greek 5178...tympanizō...
I.to beat the drum or timbrel
II.to torture with the tympanum, an instrument of punishment

He justly judges all spirits and separates them:
1. heavenly realms for believers
2. "lake of fire" for un-believers

Der Alte · Nov 24, 2017

ClementofA said:
Romans 1:20 uses a different word, aidios, that does not occur in the other verses.
The noun aion & the adjective aionios occur in the other verses. They are applied to God, punishment & many other things. In many cases they are used of finite duration. So the issue is whether or not they mean finite duration in contexts that refer to punishment. On that subject books have been written. This article might be a good place to start:

While the Greek words αἰών and αἰώνιος sometimes refers to something that is not eternal, in nineteen verses in the NT it is literally defined or described as eternal. This never occurs when αἰών and αἰώνιος refer to something which is not eternal.
.....Nineteen verses which define/describe αἰών and αἰώνιος: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24,

[1] 1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below.

[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

[4]Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is in apposition with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios, i.e. not “corruption.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”

[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here “aionios” and “aion” are contrasted with not “snatch them out of my hand” In a finite period they could be snatched out, “Aionios” means “eternal.”

[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” means eternal.

[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means “forever and forever.”

[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” means eternal.

[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.

[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.

[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period” it means “eternal.”

[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is.
= = = = =
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.

III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular. Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49

=======

• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

Are you quoting Greek scholar Marvin Vincent in support of your theory that aion & aionios are defined as 'eternal' and never defined as finite duration? Lexicons disagree with you as do Church Fathers, dictionaries & commentaries. You've been unable to give even one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition. Vincent also opposes your theory:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

Word Studies in the New Testament

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

Aeon - Wikipedia
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means “forever and forever.”

If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not necessarily forever.

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Many other similar examples could be given of literal translations. Compare:

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Chapter Five

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

razzelflabben · Nov 24, 2017

It's funny that certain people fell silent when challenged to evidence their claims....

Now on the issue of Peter and the ear of the soldier...I have been listening to you all for days and trying to learn all I can from you but I don't recall a single one of you all looking at the context of the passage and using that context to inform us as to God's intent of the passage which is a huge problem if you ask me. I mean, scripture tells us that the false teachers do NOT teach the truth of God. How can we hope to NOT be false teachers if we refuse context in favor of our pet opinions?

WEll, It's almost time for me to be off here for the night so I will allow that challenge, you know, the challenge to use context to see what God intends for us until tomorrow...maybe some time to consider God's directive to NOT add to or take away from scripture will come in handy if we ever decide to discuss the topic rather than just try to prove to everyone else that we are the gifted teachers that have all the answers and can claim someone wrong without ever knowing what they believe....

Der Alte · Nov 24, 2017

• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit.,exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

ClementofA said:
Are you quoting Greek scholar Marvin Vincent in support of your theory that aion & aionios are defined as 'eternal' and never defined as finite duration? Lexicons disagree with you as do Church Fathers, dictionaries & commentaries. You've been unable to give even one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition. Vincent also opposes your theory:
"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."...

I have always found it helpful to actually read something before responding. I quoted Vincent for what he said in the commentary on 2 Corinthians 4:17, nothing more nothing less. Note in the commentary on that one verse Vincent used the word "eternal" three times. And he made the same observation I did about "αἰώνιον" contrasted with "for a moment". The opposite of "for a moment" is not age, a finite period.
.....And also note Vincent said the phrase υπερβολην εις υπερβολην/uperbolen eis uperbolen, 2 Cor 4:17, is "An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated." The phrase εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon is also "An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word, i.e. αιων is twice repeated."

Der Alte · Nov 24, 2017

ClementofA said:
If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.
If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not necessarily forever.

Examples from current times are irrelevant. Anyone can concoct some kind of an "example" to prove almost anything they want to prove. The context is "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night,"Theses verses say that God lives "for ever and ever" 5 times, He reigns is "for ever and ever," 2 times, and His dominion is "for ever and ever." once.

Revelation 1:6
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] Amen.
Revelation 4:9
(9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 4:10
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων], and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 5:14
(14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 10:6
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων], who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelatoin 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 15:7
(7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 22:5
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]

Do these verses mean that God only lives for a finite period, then poof He is gone? Does God's dominion only last for a finite period, then it ends? Does God only reign for a finite period then he no longer reigns?
.....Note Rev 10:6, God lives for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] and there should be time no longer: Does this mean that God lives only for a finite period then time is no longer and everything ends?

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
I have always found it helpful to actually read something before responding.
..

I did read it. What would make anyone think otherwise?

Der Alter said:
The opposite of "for a moment" is not age, a finite period.

Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

Thesaurus results for MOMENT
http://en.konjugator.com/moment/
104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
http://en.konjugator.com/aeon/

Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
Examples from current times are irrelevant. Anyone can concoct some kind of an "example" to prove almost anything they want to prove. The context is "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night,"Theses verses say that God lives "for ever and ever" 5 times, He reigns is "for ever and ever," 2 times, and His dominion is "for ever and ever." once.

Revelation 1:6
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] Amen.
Revelation 4:9
(9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 4:10
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων], and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 5:14
(14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 10:6
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων], who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelatoin 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 15:7
(7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Revelation 22:5
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.[εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων]
Do these verses mean that God only lives for a finite period, then poof He is gone? Does God's dominion only last for a finite period, then it ends? Does God only reign for a finite period then he no longer reigns?
.....Note Rev 10:6, God lives for ever and ever [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων] and there should be time no longer: Does this mean that God lives only for a finite period then time is no longer and everything ends?

Der Alter said:
Eight verses from the NT which conclusively show that "aion" definitely means "eternity" and "aionios" definitely means "eternal."

Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

"The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

(6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) "for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living "into the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

So we find the phrases "into ages of ages" & "into the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

- Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
- Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
- Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
- Rev.22:5 saints reigning
- Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
- multiple references to God living or His glory

In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

(7) As documented by scholar Illaria Ramelli, Origen & a number of other early church fathers spoke of an end of all ages & or an end of "ages of ages". See Ramelli's tome below, pages 8-10, 13-14, 112ff, 132, 157-8, 160-1, 167-8, 202. (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp)
Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

"In Hom. in Ex. 6,13, similarly, Origen foresees the end of all aeons: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God.” (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.161)

"Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)

...continued at my next post...

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2017

(8) 1 Cor.10:11. Scripture speaks of the "ends of the ages" or eons (1 Cor.10:11) and an "end of the ages" (Heb.9:26). If the phrase "the ages of the ages" meant ages tumbling endlessly one after the other, as some commentators claim, why does Scripture says the ages end?

There were no ends of any eons present when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor.10:11). For Jesus spoke of the present eon in which He lived (Mt13:22; Lk.16:8) and its end (Mt.24:3) which has still not arrived almost 2000 years later. The eon that Jesus was living in, which Paul calls the "present evil eon" (Gal.1:4), of which Satan is god (2 Cor.4:4), began before David (Lu. 1:70) and all the prophets (Ac. 3:21), after the end of the world in the days of Noah, thousands of years before the birth of Christ. So, again, there was no eon ending when Paul wrote 1 Cor.10:11, let alone an end of multiple eons. So what is he referring to in speaking of a consummation or end "of the eons" having been attained (1 Cor.10:11)?

"(The) scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11... "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons."
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Chapter Five

"It contains the phrase "the ends of the eons," or, as we prefer to render it, "the consummations of the. eons" (1 Cor. 10:11), for they not only come to an end, but culminate in the accomplishment of the purpose (Eph. 3:11) for which they were made (Heb. 1:2)....In our own spirits we have an undeniable foretaste that the eons are accomplishing the purpose for which they were made." (Unsearchable Riches [U.R.], Vol. 58, p.39-40, A.E.K.).

"in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Eph.3:11)
" which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1)

"The eons not only come to an end, but culminate in the purpose (Eph.3:ll) for which God made them (Heb.l:2)." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)

"Paul is warning the Corinthians not to become disqualified, but to drink out of their spiritual, following Rock—Christ. A strong incentive to do this is that already the consummations of the ages have attained in spirit to the saints. What the ends of the coming eons will bring has already been made known in some measure to the saints. Every one of the four occurrences of the verb katantao in Paul's epistles shews that he used it as a meaning to attain in spirit, to draw up alongside in spirit (1. Cor. 10:11; 14:36; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:11)."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"It is not until the consummation when God becomes All in all that His titles can be clearly and fully appreciated. But we, in sense, have been taken ahead of time to the consummation.
The manifestation of Christ through His sacrifice, which we see with the eyes of faith, is vitally connected with the conclusion of the eons according to Hebrews 9:26 where we read, "... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." Paul describes us who believe this evangel as those "to whom the consummations of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.lO:ll). The goals toward which God is leading the universe have, in spiritual way, come ahead of time to us. And one of these goals is the manifestation of Himself to His creatures." (U.R., Vol 71, p.77, D.H.H.).

"In spirit, Paul brought those under his ministry into the new creation, which is the spiritual counterpart of the eon inaugurated by the new heavens and new earth. It is only thus that the consummations of the eons had already reached the Corinthians." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)....?

"...The evangel of God concerning His Son announces the end of sin and the end of divine indignation. These consummations will be realized throughout the universe when God is All is all, but, in spirit, they have attained to us who are believing (1 Cor. 10:11)." (U.R., Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255, D.H.H.)

If all eons end (1 Cor.10:11), then "eons of eons" (Rev.14:11) and "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. Likewise must the "torment" for these finite time periods also end. What occurs after their end - whether endless torments, endless annihilation or reconciliation to God - is left up to other passages of the Scriptures to reveal.

For elaborations upon this point re 1 Cor.10:11 i'd suggest the following articles & comments:

Unsearchable Riches, Vol 15, p.24-28; Vol 19, p.230; Vol 58, p.39-40; Vol 82, p.238; Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255; Vol 99, p.283; Vol 100, p.131-134 @

Unsearchable Riches

(9) Heb.9:26 refers to an end of the ages. If all ages end, then "the ages of the ages" must end, both in Rev.20:10 & all other contexts of Scripture.

"Origen, reflecting on Heb 9:26 and Eph 2:7, argues that Christ’s sacrifice was made once and for all aeons. These aeons are not infinite or repetitive, but point to one telos, the apokatastasis of all, which is not a result of necessity, but of all rational creatures’ voluntary adhesion to the Good." (Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.202)

A.E. Knoch opined that Hebrews 9:26 and 1 Cor.10:11 are "positive proof that the eons have a conclusion, or "end", and therefore do not last "for ever"...[which] also repudiates the assumptive theory of man that there is an infinite series of ages..." (U.R., Vol. 19, p.230, 1928).

"...the Greek preposition epi, when followed by a dative case, as here, signifies "over," "on the basis of," "with a view to." It was on the basis of a conclusion of the ages, for repudiation of sin through His, sacrifice, that He has been manifested. Epi, when followed by a genitive or accusative case, takes the meaning "on," or "on to," but its metaphorical force comes out generally when the dative case is used. Christ was manifested with a view to the ages being concluded, The ages are the times in which sin and enemies are present, requiring the sacrifice of God's Son. He was manifested so that sin might be set aside through His sacrifice, having in view a conclusion to the ages. He was certainly not manifested at a conclusion of the ages, but His manifestation demands that the eons terminate."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

"26 FOR,]lit. 'since it were behoving him, to suffer many times from [the] laying-down of the world, but now, once for all, on the full-end of the ages, has he been manifested with a view to a putting away of sin, through his own sacrifice' " (Robert Young, LL.D., Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament, p.158, also author of Young's Literal Translation & Young's Concordance)
Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament
A commentary on the holy Bible, as literally and idiomatically tr. out of the original languages

"We have been asked concerning Hebrews 9:26, which in the Authorized Version reads as follows: "... but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." It seems to be saying that the "end of the world" occurred when Christ was sacrificed. As A. E. Knoch once said, "This is so impossible that I suppose no one takes it seriously."* The early (1926, 1930) editions of the Concordant Version, hoping to put sense into an enigmatic passage rendered it as follows: "... yet now, once, has He been manifested through His sacrifice, for the repudiation of sin at the conclusion of the eons." ...Neither the AV or the early CV completely reflected the order of the Greek clauses in English. The sublinear reads now yet once on together-finish of-the eons INTO UN-PLACING OF-THE missing THRU THE SACRIFICE OF-Him He-HAS-beenn-made-APPEAR."

"...Even when considering a single eon, the "conclusion" {sunteleia, together-finish) of the eon (e.g., Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time in which the events of that eon culminate. It is compared with a harvest. By definition, an eon's culmination is that portion of it in which its highest point is attained in order to reach a final result. "The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of a period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word 'conclusion.' "

""The scope of the book of Hebrews does not include the present time of grace to the nations. Yet there was to be delay, so that its readers would die in faith instead of receiving the promises. This shows that, at that time, and, indeed, throughout our Lord's ministries and the book of Acts, the coming eons were imminent. Consequently, it appeared as if our Lord's sacrifice came just before the kingdom. And is not this, together with the last eon, the harvest season of the eons? With this in mind it is not so very difficult to see that all of the time after His sacrifice is 'conclusion', especially with respect to sin." "

"...The term "at" (the conclusion of the eons) is not strictly correct; it is only that this is the best idiomatic rendering we can make in the Version. The word is actually "on." The idea seems to be this: We are to understand that once Christ had been manifested "for [EIS for the purpose of] the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice," one enters, or comes upon that field of time which we may now view as "the conclusion of the eons." The eonian times which are encompassed with in the scriptural revelation began to conclude once Christ's sacrifice was accomplished - when "He died to Sin once for all time" (Rom.6:10)."

"Until then all awaited His sacrifice. The zenith had not been reached. All was still, so to say, "uphill." But once the great Sacrifice was made, when the Lord declared, "It is accomplished!" (John 19:30), the concluding portion of the eonian times began. The repudiation of sin is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. It is not realized, however, until God vivifies all mankind, becomes All in all, and reconciles all estranged beings throughout the universe, accomplishing all "through the blood of [Christ's] cross" (Col.l:20; cp. Eph.l:10)."

"Another consideration is that the definite article ("the") does not appear here in the Greek. It is not a matter of "at the conclusion of the eons" at all, even if we are constrained to put it this way in the Version, not yet having found a better solution while still preserving good diction. The idea is not to point to a particular moment, but to speak of having now entered into, or come upon, the concluding portion of the eons, which is thus set in contrast to the former or preceding portion."

"The writer of Hebrews certainly did not know how long the present era would continue. Nor are any such considerations in view, whether in Hebrews 9 or else where in this epistle. Instead, the emphasis of Hebrews is that of the typical nature of the animal sacrifices in their representation of the sacrifice of Christ."

"Even as the blood of calves and he-goats constituted a sufficient and effectual shelter for sin, thus also, the blood of Christ constitutes a sufficient and effectual means for the elimination of sin. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice, all would be doomed; but because of Christ's sacrifice, all will be delivered."

"The viewpoint in Hebrews is antitypical. In other connections it may seem strange to include the rest of this eon and two more in the word 'conclusion.' Yet, when we consider the shadow, it becomes evident that the period here, however described, must include all of the time in which the sacrifice is operative, that is, until its work is accomplished." "

"A concluding portion of a period of time need not necessarily be brief in duration. To say that it must is to confound ordinary usage with essential meaning. Besides, if the testimony of geology and astronomy is true, the first eon (prior to Genesis 1:2) may have been of such great duration that the time from the cross to the consummation actually will prove to be of relatively brief duration." [U.R., Vol. 82, p.16-22, 1991, James R. Coram]

"..the Authorized Version will hardly excuse the rendering of Hebrews 9:26. "But now once in the end of the world hath He appeared . . ." cannot be explained on any rational grounds. Christ has appeared, but it certainly was not at the end of the world. The American Revisers change this to "the end of the age', which is very much better, so far as the word eon is concerned. But it is open to the same objection. The eons have not by any means ended even yet. Christ did not appear at either "the end of the world" or "the end of the ages". And, we may add, sin has not been "put away" in any plain, intelligible sense." (U.R., Vol 17, p.267, 1926, A.E.K.)

"The A. V. tells us that Christ appeared "in the end of the world." This, of course, is impossible, seeing that almost two thousand years have passed since then and the end is not yet. In reality His manifestation marks the commencement of the conclusion of the eons. Just as the offering on the day of shelter, or "atonement" in Israel ushered in year in which there is cleansing of sin, so the sacrifice of Christ commences the conclusion of the eons in which sin is repudiated. A year in Israel, with its round of typical festivals, corresponds to the conclusion of the eons, in which the antitype of these festivals are found." [U.R., Vol 38, p.225, 1947, A.E.K.]

"It is clear that His sacrifice was not at "the end of the world" (A.V.). However, the conclusion of the eon (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time, which is compared with harvest. The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word "conclusion.*
* A more complete explanation of this passage, as rendered in the Concordant Version, is found in Unsearchable Riches, Volume 30, Number (March, 1939)." [U.R., Vol 56, p.156, 1965, A.E.K.]

"This verse is designed to amplify the grand object of His one appearing, that is, Christ appeared once to offer Himself as a sacrifice in order to put away sin at the end of the ages or eons...Repudiation [of sin] is defined as to have no place for [sin] (Keyword Concordance, p. 246). When the last enemy, death, is put out of business, abolished, discarded, made unproductive (1 Corinthians 15:26), then sin will find no place anywhere in His world since sin reigns only in death (Romans 5:20). In other words, when God abolishes death, He also leaves no place for sin. This He will do at the end of the ages or eons. It is for this purpose that Christ has been manifested in His earthly career; and it is His sacrifice at Calvary's cross, His sacrifice for sin that makes sin's repudiation certain, since He is the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29)."

"...The actual teaching of the passage can be verified as follows: Some current versions of this verse teach that Christ appeared at the end of the ages. Yet according to these same versions Paul, writing years after this appearing, speaks of ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Thus two "authorized" versions make the apostle Paul flatly contradict what the writer of Hebrews said. Again, the devotees of versions which are not concordant and consistent find themselves involved in another conflict that cannot be reconciled, since their versions teach that Christ "appeared at the end of the ages" while, at the same time, their theology teaches that the ages never end."

"...The Scriptures distinctly and emphatically teach that the eons had a beginning and will also have conclusion. The Scriptures point to time when the eons were not yet in existence, and they point to time when the eons shall pass away." [U.R., vol 60, p.120-122, 1969, F.N.P.]

"This one verse (26) of Hebrews 9 takes us, in one sweeping statement, from the disruption of the world to the conclusion of the eons. Though Christ, as Saviour, is now manifest, sin will not be completely eliminated from the universe until the conclusion of the eons. But the acceptance by God of Christ's offering has made that elimination inevitable. But this wonderful scripture gives further proof that, just as the curtain which veiled God's presence, was rent in the earthly temple at the precise moment of Christ's death, so that spiritual veil which obstructed the approach of the celestials to God, was likewise rent; and there is nothing now, save their own spiritual blindness, to prevent them entering into the presence of God, and offering Him the "logical divine service" which is His due from all His creatures. (U.R., Vol 68, p.259-60, 1977, John H. Essex)

"The conclusion of the eons is likewise involved in obscurity in our versions. They suggest that this august event has already occurred at the manifestation of Christ (Heb.9:26). However the words may be translated, the argument of the passage is clear. The high priest went in every year with the blood of others. Not so Christ. He sacrificed Himself once. There was no sacrifice on His part from the disruption, when sin entered, until His manifestation. Neither will there be any further offering needed all the way to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is repudiated. The single suffering of Christ suffices both for the past and future, from sin's entrance to its exit, from the disruption to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is put away. There is a sense in which sin is "put away" potentially or in the experience of the believer, but in the sense here indicated, as the antithesis of the disruption, it can refer only to the actual removal of sin itself which will occur at the very time indicated, the conclusion of the eons."
2. The Eon of the Eons

"The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin. They record its entrance and foretell its exit. They had a definite Beginning and will have a definite Consummation...The grand infinitudes of time before the beginning and after the consummation have much in common, chiefly that in the beginning God is All was All: in the consummation He will be All in all. Sin is entirely absent. This cannot be said of any of the eons." The Divine Calendar

"The power of the blood of Christ will prevail until sin is repudiated. This is at the conclusion of the eons."

"...(1 Cor. 2:7:before the world [ages]" and Heb. 9:26: "end of the world", or, as Scofield says, "consummation of the ages" which, by the way, should refer to the future putting
away of sin, not the time of Christ's sacrifice)" [U.R., Vol. 61, 1970, p.9, 270, A.E.K.).

The following website articles elaborate upon this interpretation of Heb.9:26 in more detail:

Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.5, 1913-14, p.199-203, Alan Burns
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.6, 1914-15, p.258-268, Vladimir Gelesnoff
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.17, 1926, pgs.265-276, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.30, 1939, pgs.109-116, Adolph E. Knoch
Unsearchable Riches

(10) Some introductory historical remarks are required for the next point. The New Testament quotes from the Greek OT much more often than the Hebrew OT. An Old Testament in the Greek language accepted by the early church was known as the translation of Theodotian (see urls below for details). There was also the early Greek OT known as the LXX or Septuagint which has significant differences with the translation of Theodotian.

THEODOTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

"Theodotion's translation of Daniel supplanted the original LXX version which was quite different. The Book of Hebrews (11:33=Daniel 6:23) and Revelation both agree with Theodotion's translation (Origen's Hexapla contained these translations).
"IBSS - The Bible - Old Testament: Septuagint

"[Theodotian's] translation, however, is seemingly "quoted" in Heb. 11:33 and several times in Revelations! This strongly suggests that Theodotion's version was based upon either a lost Greek translation which competed with the LXX or upon a "revised" LXX...Theodotion's version of Daniel is the one officially accepted by the Church and usually printed in modern editions of the LXX..."St. Pachomius Library: SEPTUAGINT

The book of Daniel is closely associated with the book of Revelation which contains our many references to the phrase "the ages of the ages". It seems, from the quotes above, that John was more likely to have used a Greek OT in harmony with that of Theodotian's rather than the LXX.

In Daniel 12:3 this Greek OT of Theodotian, unlike the LXX, speaks of the "eons and further" [αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι]. This is in the context of resurrection spoken of in verse 2, which recalls the resurrections of the book of Revelation. Could Daniel's reference to "the eons and further" be to a time beyond "the eons of the eons" spoken of in Revelation? Both make reference to eons, but Daniel speaks of what is beyond "the eons". It seems Daniel may be speaking of a time after that of John's Revelation references to eons, which would make "the eons of the eons" of a finite duration. If John had wished to convince his readers of the idea of endless eons, readers who may have been familiar with Daniel 12:3, it seems that speaking of mere "eons of the eons" was not the way to do it.

(11) John of Damascus (676-749 AD) writes of "limitless(απειρους/apeirous) aeons of the aeons". If "eons of the eons" was universally understood as meaning forever and ever or endlessness, would there be a need to add the word "limitless" to it?
απειρους — с греческого на все языки

the use of aion in Plato and John of Damascus
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf
Iohannes Damascenus - Expositio Accurata Fidei Orthodoxae (MPG 94 0789 1227) [0675-0749] Full Text at Documenta Catholica Omnia
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....a_Fidei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227),_GM.pdf

Similarly Philo, a contemporary with Jesus, spoke of an unlimited eon. Heleena Keizer wrote "Ton apeiron aiona, "the unlimited aion", is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exodus 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo, ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of "all, endless time" (chapter II text [33])...The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of contunuity by the words "not for one moment ungoverned" and "uninterrupted"." ("Life Time Entirety: A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo", Helena M. Keizer, 2010, p.212).
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρον/el/xx/
http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρα/el/xx/

If God wanted to clearly & unambiguously teach endless punishment in the Scriptures, why, then, did Revelation 20:10 not speak of torment for "endless[apeiron] ages"?

(12) The word aion literally means age, or eon. Why would the Lord's word say eons (Rev.20:10) if He meant endlessness? If endlessness was meant, then the Greek language of the time had a number of ways of expressing it unambiguously. In addition to apeiron, there were the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) to express the idea of endlessness. In Luke they are spoken of God's kingdom. Likewise:

σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν (LXX; Psa.102:27, God's years have "no end")
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Psa.102:27, Brenton LXX trans.
But you remain the same, and your years will never end. (Heb.1:12b)

****************************

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Forum
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://lovewins.us/

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

What U See is What U Get!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contributor

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency